Real Religion... ready to vent

[David Bliss]

I DO. PRAISE THE LORD ALMIGHTY!

[TheWay]

mister sandman, do you see the bible as historically accurate and factual? do you believe everything in it is true?

I do and I would site Josephus and tacitus as ancient historical scholars who support many of the writtings in scripture. Plus countless archeological findings which show cities and entire civilizations that no one knew about and thought proved the bible wrong later to be shown that they existed and where indeed found. I havent had much time to visit the debate area recetly and dont ahve much time now but if you need the actual digs and the evidence for these statments i would be happy to provide later in the week but if you would be so kind go ahead and take a look for yourself.

Scripture as a book is absolutly historically accurate, but since you ahve brought that into question please explain why you think it isnt.

I must hit the hay I ahve church in the morning

@david bliss, Ahmen brother

[Demeisen]

well im happy for you lads. you believe in the bible and you are comfortable in doing so.

personally ive never thought the bible was historically accurate or factual. i always saw it as more of a guide to make people think, question life and learn of the kindness that a person should aspire to.

i dont consider it accurate though. there are many things in the bible which actually happened but most has been distorted, exaggerated, elaborated and made up over the centuries. in short its more story than history. most people know this to be true.

if you believe the bible is a true and factual Book then theres not a lot to debate. you will most likely dismiss anything (short of God himself) telling you its not 100% true and factual.

i would argue endlessly with religious fanatics but i have to go hold back the tide. ill have more success with that than trying to convince you folk

[Thriller]

Wow you are really using a weak argument.

Obversely PI or π is not = 3

Another verse for your liking... 2 Chronicles 4:2

However, I believe you have misinterpreted this/these verse/verses.

Before I go into that, history lesson!

Babylonian mathematicians, as early as the 19th century BC, were using π ≈ 25⁄8, which is about 0.5% below the exact value.

Back to the argument on hand

Firstly, In the Mishnat ha-Middot, Rabbi Nehemiah explains that saying that the diameter was measured from the outside of the brim while the circumference was measured along the inner rim. The stated dimensions would be exact if measured this way on a brim about four inches wide.

So you have the Inner Circumference of..30
and outside diameter is = 10

And thus the out side circumference = 2PIr = 2 PI 5 = 31.415926535897932384626433832795....

OC (outside circumference) / OD (outside diameter) = 3.141592653589793238462643383279....


Hum...looks pretty much PI if you ask me.

If you somehow don't accept that....

Lets go through a few other possibilities.

1. It is noted that Hebrews tended to round numbers...
2.The basin may not have been exactly a circle,
3.The brim was wider than the bowl itself
4. Reconstructions of the basin show a wider brim extending outward from the bowl itself by several inches


Alternatively there are better explanations....

Just for a few light reads...


Here
Here
Here
Here

The ratio of for PI is the circumference dived by the diameter i don't know WTH that rabbi is talking about but their is no inner circumference mentioned (talking about a circle within a circle?), You'll have to clarify.

So you have the Inner Circumference of..30
and outside diameter is = 10

And thus the out side circumference = 2PIr = 2 PI 5 = 31.415926535897932384626433832795....

OC (outside circumference) / OD (outside diameter) = 3.141592653589793238462643383279....


Hum...looks pretty much PI if you ask me.

C=2πr right
Therefore if the diameter is 10 the circumference must be approximately 31.4(bible says its 30 and theirs no mention of any rim or anything else)

The circumference is the distance around a closed curve. If when the bible said the circumference was thirty and it was talking about a circle within a larger circle, and the diameter was the cross measurement of the larger circle that contained the former. Then what i said no longer applys. But i see no mention in the verse where it states any of that. NO mention of a brim, or any such thing. The rabbi is putting words into god's mouth. (There's probably a lot of that in the bible). The only way you achieved the result of pi was by using the properly calculated circumference of 31.4; this number is not ever mentioned. Good job!!!(extreme sarcasm) If you knew anything about algebra you would know you didn't even have to do a ratio conversion because you already used the proper number of pi in your first calculation to get the damn right circumference in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1, GOD.

My point is that the bible cannot be the exact word of god, for then god would have been proven to be wrong(their are more examples, i just picked one I'm most familiar with). Even if god spoke the words to the people who wrote it, they obviously must have translated it so people would understand it. Therefore this leaves the doors wide open to errors in interpretation from the writers and the book is therefore subject to scrutiny and even further interpretation. (What that rabbi did is a perfect example).

Their maybe be a god but the bible is not his word. Just a translation.

[Mister Sandman]

mister sandman, do you see the bible as historically accurate and factual? do you believe everything in it is true?

Do I see? I know it is historically accurate and factual.

It is truth.



[spoiler]

Wow you are really using a weak argument.

Obversely PI or π is not = 3

Another verse for your liking... 2 Chronicles 4:2

However, I believe you have misinterpreted this/these verse/verses.

Before I go into that, history lesson!

Babylonian mathematicians, as early as the 19th century BC, were using π ≈ 25⁄8, which is about 0.5% below the exact value.

Back to the argument on hand

Firstly, In the Mishnat ha-Middot, Rabbi Nehemiah explains that saying that the diameter was measured from the outside of the brim while the circumference was measured along the inner rim. The stated dimensions would be exact if measured this way on a brim about four inches wide.

So you have the Inner Circumference of..30
and outside diameter is = 10

And thus the out side circumference = 2PIr = 2 PI 5 = 31.415926535897932384626433832795....

OC (outside circumference) / OD (outside diameter) = 3.141592653589793238462643383279....


Hum...looks pretty much PI if you ask me.

If you somehow don't accept that....

Lets go through a few other possibilities.

1. It is noted that Hebrews tended to round numbers...
2.The basin may not have been exactly a circle,
3.The brim was wider than the bowl itself
4. Reconstructions of the basin show a wider brim extending outward from the bowl itself by several inches


Alternatively there are better explanations....

Just for a few light reads...


Here
Here
Here
Here

The ratio of for PI is the circumference dived by the diameter i don't know WTH that rabbi is talking about but their is no inner circumference mentioned (talking about a circle within a circle?), You'll have to clarify.

So you have the Inner Circumference of..30
and outside diameter is = 10

And thus the out side circumference = 2PIr = 2 PI 5 = 31.415926535897932384626433832795....

OC (outside circumference) / OD (outside diameter) = 3.141592653589793238462643383279....


Hum...looks pretty much PI if you ask me.

C=2πr right
Therefore if the diameter is 10 the circumference must be approximately 31.4(bible says its 30 and theirs no mention of any rim or anything else)

The circumference is the distance around a closed curve. If when the bible said the circumference was thirty and it was talking about a circle within a larger circle, and the diameter was the cross measurement of the larger circle that contained the former. Then what i said no longer applys. But i see no mention in the verse where it states any of that. NO mention of a brim, or any such thing. The rabbi is putting words into god's mouth. (There's probably a lot of that in the bible). The only way you achieved the result of pi was by using the properly calculated circumference of 31.4; this number is not ever mentioned. Good job!!!(extreme sarcasm) If you knew anything about algebra you would know you didn't even have to do a ratio conversion because you already used the proper number of pi in your first calculation to get the damn right circumference in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1, GOD.

My point is that the bible cannot be the exact word of god, for then god would have been proven to be wrong(their are more examples, i just picked one I'm most familiar with). Even if god spoke the words to the people who wrote it, they obviously must have translated it so people would understand it. Therefore this leaves the doors wide open to errors in interpretation from the writers and the book is therefore subject to scrutiny and even further interpretation. (What that rabbi did is a perfect example).

Their maybe be a god but the bible is not his word. Just a translation.

[/spoiler]

Mate, dont play games what you dont understand. Your going round in "circles"... to a "degree" that your contradicting yourself. (Yes people you may all laugh at my funny references)

Here is the verse for again

I Kings 7:23-26

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it. Below the rim, gourds encircled it - ten to a cubit. The gourds were cast in two rows in one piece with the Sea. The Sea stood on twelve bulls, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south and three facing east. The Sea rested on top of them, and their hindquarters were toward the center. It was a handbreadth in thickness, and its rim was like the rim of a cup, like a lily blossom. It held two thousand baths. (NIV)


I dont know how to say this but all you can do READ



To your so called point. The bible is inspired by God, written by man.
But overly the Bible's scripture is truth. The scriptures itself is truth. Yes, it is subjected to interpretation of people who do read it. However, we dont need those interpretations for the bible to be true. Stand alone the bible is truth.

[n3M351s]

PI is not 3

Different civilizations had different figures for Pi back before the most accurate of figures became known. Sorry for quoting but I haven't been over this for a long time.

The earliest known approximations date from around 1900 BC; they are 25/8 (Babylonia) and 256/81 (Egypt), both within 1% of the true value. The Indian text Shatapatha Brahmana gives π as 339/108 ≈ 3.139. The Tanakh appears to suggest, in the Book of Kings, that π = 3, which is notably worse than other estimates available at the time of writing (600 BC). The interpretation of the passage is disputed, as some believe the ratio of 3:1 is of an exterior circumference to an interior diameter of a thinly walled basin, which could indeed be an accurate ratio, depending on the thickness of the walls.

[Demeisen]

well that answers my question and confirmed my thoughts i suppose.

do you mean its truth in a spiritual, philosophical way?

because if you are saying every part, every statement, every event in the bible is true/correct/fact i would disagree with you.

it is written by man. man is fallible. if you claim the bible is true/correct/fact that implies man is infallible. only God can hold that title. pls explain the apparent contradiction.

i dont like the way people follow their religious books religiously and absolutely. more emphasis should be placed on the message conveyed. after all, thats what the bible is about. its about what it means to someone when they read it. a good christian can find great comfort and wisdom in the bible to help them lead a good life. but adhering to a mistaken (and baffling) belief that the bible is entirely factual seems stupid to me. hey thats just my opinion.


would you say God literally created the world and mankind in the space of a week?
that god literally destroyed the cities of sodom and gomorrah (which is basically mass genocide)?

or would you say that people altered and added to the bible over the years? that they were creating much from their own imagination, missing parts out and putting parts in?

or perhaps you say something else. . .


in the modern age of science and knowledge, i find it astonishing that some still see the bible as a history book which is 100% fact. it clearly is not. faith can open eyes and blind in one move.

[n3M351s]

in the modern age of science and knowledge, i find it astonishing that some still see the bible as a history book which is 100% fact. it clearly is not. faith can open eyes and blind in one move.

As far as I know nothing in the Bible has ever been disproven.

[Demeisen]

As far as I know nothing in the Bible has ever been disproven.

according to the bible the earth is less than ten thousand years old right?

its been extensively proven that the earth is older than this.

now you know something in the bible which has been proven wrong.



btw im not having a go at christianity or any religion (except scientology). my only point of contention is that the bible isnt a history book of fact and reality. it is more of a spiritual guide book.

[n3M351s]

As far as I know nothing in the Bible has ever been disproven.

according to the bible the earth is less than ten thousand years old right?

its been extensively proven that the earth is older than this.

now you know something in the bible which has been proven wrong.

What evidence is there to prove the Earth is over 10,000 years old?

The Bibles explanations of how the world came to be and how long ago it was created fit perfectly into the sequence. Again its more a belief thing.

How can a scientist know that a rock is 150 million years old? They weren't there when it was created and how would they know what a 150 million year old rock looks like? To me making up all these huge figures is just a joke.

[Mister Sandman]

As far as I know nothing in the Bible has ever been disproven.

according to the bible the earth is less than ten thousand years old right?

its been extensively proven that the earth is older than this.

now you know something in the bible which has been proven wrong.

Ten thousand years relative to what? To modern time measurements?
To Roman time measurements? To time measurements of the Mayans and the Aztec? To you?

You realise :- a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day

You really have to define time.

Human minds cannot comprehend "time". It seems to be an impossible. Its like seeing a 3d shape in a 2d world. All we can are the effects...

More or less your statement is totally invalid.

We can't understand time, merely measure it, practically you can use your own measure of time to prove any age of the world.

And since when was carbon dating accurate? It has a LARGE window of error.

well that answers my question and confirmed my thoughts i suppose.

do you mean its truth in a spiritual, philosophical way?

because if you are saying every part, every statement, every event in the bible is true/correct/fact i would disagree with you.

it is written by man. man is fallible. if you claim the bible is true/correct/fact that implies man is infallible. only God can hold that title. pls explain the apparent contradiction.

The bible isnt just a history book. It is much more than that.

Its the ultimate truth.

It does not imply that man is infallible. The writings, inspiration, the word belongs to God. Man is just a tool to write.

i dont like the way people follow their religious books religiously and absolutely. more emphasis should be placed on the message conveyed. after all, thats what the bible is about. its about what it means to someone when they read it. a good christian can find great comfort and wisdom in the bible to help them lead a good life. but adhering to a mistaken (and baffling) belief that the bible is entirely factual seems stupid to me. hey thats just my opinion.

It's a way of life. It's a choice. A choice to believe in fact. If the bible is not entirely factual then why believe in it? It would compromise the validity of all the rest of the scripture.

would you say God literally created the world and mankind in the space of a week?
that god literally destroyed the cities of sodom and gomorrah (which is basically mass genocide)?

or would you say that people altered and added to the bible over the years? that they were creating much from their own imagination, missing parts out and putting parts in?

or perhaps you say something else. . .

A week is time, time is relative. As said before.

God literally destroyed the cities of sodom and gomorrah what's wrong with that? God is God he is the ultimate judge. And do not forget he used mercy.

in the modern age of science and knowledge, i find it astonishing that some still see the bible as a history book which is 100% fact. it clearly is not. faith can open eyes and blind in one move.

As far as I know nothing in the Bible has ever been disproven.

What n3M351s said.

[Demeisen]

lol ok

i never said carbon dating was required. but now that you mention it, carbon dating does prove the world is older than 10,000 earth years. an earth year being 1 orbit around the sun. so not really a human definition of time.

then theres:
*the fossil record
*dendrochronology (using tree rings)
*geological
*archaeology
*Amino acid dating
*Fluorine absorption dating

there are many, many things that show the world is older than the bible states. taken alone, i dont expect them to convince you. but all together and saying the same thing? nah lol you still wont believe me.



also, the bible claims the world is round (according to your fellow christian). it is in fact flat. there may be scientific proof showing its round but it is all lies. also, a human definition of roundness isnt correct so what seems round is actually flat. my trusty old atlas says the world is flat as a pancake therefore i must believe this contrary to all evidence and common sense

[David Bliss]

The days in the bible are undefined, so 1 day could mean thousands of years. Also when thinking of evolution answer the question....Why?

[Kit-Fox]

Oh I do like how religious fanatics bend things to fit their theories.

Just to throw a spanner in the works as it was, ya'll realise dont ya that the current & previous pope both thought that the bible wasnt verbatim truth or fact and that it was made up of stories (parables) that would have been understood by the people of those times to encourage them to think and to live their life in a proper way.

and with that I walk away, theres no point in arguing with religious nuts, all they do is drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience rather than intelligence.

g'day y'all

[Demeisen]

The days in the bible are undefined, so 1 day could mean thousands of years. Also when thinking of evolution answer the question....Why?

so how can a day be thousands of years? and 'God slowed the earths rotation' isnt an answer, its a joke

if the days in the bible are undefined, why are they defined when it suits your purpose for them to be? after the death of Jesus by crucifixion he rose from the dead after 3 days. by your reasoning he could have rose from the dead after thousands of years. if that is true, how were his followers still alive when he was ressurected?

your logic crumbles. you twist and mutilate truth to fit with your predetermined beliefs. any casual observer can plainly see that your retorts have no substance and that they lack any common sense. denial of any facts which do not reinforce your delusion makes me think you are brainwashed.

ive lost respect for Christianity (specifically your 'type' of Christianity whichever it may be) by seeing how it has captured your mind and locked it in mistaken ideas, which are basically lies.

much of the bible i would never argue with. much is taken on faith as it cannot be proven. thats how things should be and it is good. when you try to prove the unprovable you degrade yourself, and in the name of what?


theres no such thing as evolution. God created every living creature out of lego in a few days using holy majik he also planted masses of evidence to trick humanity yeh


@kit-fox
yep they do like to. im bored, so i reply. its quite interesting to realise 1st hand what people convince themselves of. peaceout