Real Religion... ready to vent

[Sytem Lord Yu]

ok, So i was reading, well more like just skimming here and there of y'all had said, and its all very good arguments and all, but i was all bout the western religions, what bout eh eastern religions?
Like Buddhism, as a fellow Buddhist, think that it is not a religion, but a way of life. Although there is a God seeing our inability to be perfect sent the one person that could notsect, that worships the Buddha as a "God", the main sect of Buddhism is in fact more of a way of life.

Among the methods various schools of Buddhism apply towards this goal are: ethical conduct and altruistic behavior, devotional practices, ceremonies and the invocation of Bodhisatvas that help them achieve Nirvana, renunciation of worldly matters, meditation, physical exercises akin to Hatha yoga, study, and the cultivation of wisdom.

Those and the fact that, when you go to a Buddhist temple you do worship, but pray to your ancestors, for good fortune, health, etc, and that they have a good afterlife. If you are Buddhist, you can still practice other religions, but, if you're a Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, you may not practice other religions, for it is frowned upon by your religion, and your "God' (whoever that my be). That is all that i have to say for now, i would really like it if someone could challenge these facts, and my point of view. Thank you.

I read the original topic question which seems to allow well for this discussion.
You have asked that someone challenge your fact or your thoughts and I am not sure I will directly do so but I will at least address my view on Buddhism which is bound to be counter to yours. I have a great deal of experience in this area because I was the English/Youth Pastor for a Vietnamese Church for about 3 years and so I obviously ran into Buddhism a great deal both in the church itself and outside the church when speaking to the youth kids friends or when having outreach events.
My understanding of Buddhism is that it was a religion designed in response to the brokenness of man that Buddha saw around him when he finally ventured from the confines of his sheltered palace. The system was designed around principles ie.

The Four Noble Truths
1. Life leads to suffering.
2. Suffering comes from our attachment to worldly things.
3. By escaping all desires you will reach enlightenment.
4. To reach true freedom you must follow the path (see below)

&

The Eight Fold Path
1. Right view
2. Right intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration


Now I must admit this system is infinitely better than the one it replaced in that it focuses on being a moral person, however it is ultimately incapable of philosophically reaching any of its goals by the means it sets forth since in my opinion the eightfold path and the four truths are not attainable by fallen man. I completely recognize my view is based off my a priori understanding of fallen man and that where you to approach this with a different presupposition you may not be brought to the same conclusion. I however believe (not faith but rather knowledge gained) that man is not capable of escaping desires or releasing themselves from worldly things at least not entirely, this would require someone better than man a perfect man. Beyond the four truths you run into the same problems with the principles in the eight fold path. There is no man capable of living without telling a lie nor are we capable of any of these principles in an absolute sense. I would also disagree strongly with most interpretations on the value of right living as understood by most Buddhist, in that I think the views are utopian at best and worst have possibly lead to the situation in Thailand.

All the things which this system endeavors to accomplish are accomplished through Christianity through the process of imputed righteousness. If you take the presupposition that God is perfect which if he is God he must be then you inevitably must be perfect to be in his presence for what relationship can light have with darkness but to keep each other at bay. Then it stands to reason that we must attain perfection as in the system of Buddha we must become more then we are. The problem is we are all born fallen and with a sin nature which I dare say no one could honestly disagree with when looking around themselves; they will see we are truly depraved as a species. This then is a problem that must be resolved if one is to have a relationship with its creator or ultimately escape this world of suffering and be in union with God. This problem although not answered in Buddhism is answered in Christianity, in that only be perfect but was also capable of dying in our place to pay for our sins. In sending Christ to live, die and rise again he answered all of the problems we face.

1. The penalty for our sins must be paid because ultimately God is just. So Christ Died, taking on all our sins past present and future.

2. We are not perfect and incapable of being so. Christ lived the perfect life which was imputed to us when he died so that when God looks down on us he sees Christ imputed righteousness rather than our fallen nature.

3. He rose from the dead showing us he is God and that he has power over death. Where O death is your sting.

In all Buddhism is a religion and a noble one for sure but ultimately it seeks what it will not find and at the end of the day in my opinion you have a lot of people struggling to reach a goal which is unattainable. They may find value in the struggle and that is noble but I hardly think it is enough, if the wish to reach enlightenment there is a path and his name is Jesus. Jesus is the way the truth and the life no one comes to father except through the son.


Please take no offense to this as these are my oppinions and you are free to hold opposing ones though I do belive I am correct and in turn those oopposing are wrong. Not pluralism but tolerance

No I do not take any offense to what you wrote, in fact im glad that you wrote them, i like have the little intelligent discussion, and i hope we can keep it going, and no one is right of wrong, these are our views, so yes Way, you are correct in those ways, but that is what you saw adn came across in Vietnam, they have different ways of teachings of the Buddha, for i am a american student stuyding in Taiwan, i see buddhism everywhere i go, and here (idk bout other places), but here they don't worship him, in most "religions" people worship, but in Buddhism they do not, so is Buddhism really a "religion"? For you do not worship the Buddha, you pray to him, and to your ancestors, you do read a bileb, or koran, or anything. You seek knowlage, and peace, not love from your "God", and Buddha is not venagful, hes kinda, careing, and has no hate, or anger in him, unlike the other realigions "Gods". I can see hoe it is catorgorized as a Religion, but to me, and most Buddists it is just simply a way of life. For Ex. take a look at the Tibetian Monks, they seek peace from china, and all people of the world, The Dalia Lama, he too seeks peace, and is Buddism, you do not just die, you are rencatnated, you life on, buyt as a new being, you always get a new chance to start over in your next life. now, these are just what i have been told, and have experinced in my time here in Taiwan.

[TheWay]

I wonder then what do you believe determines what you will reincarnate as. In hinduism which is where this idea of reincarnation originated (For the most part) you move up the caste system based on doing well at your current position in life ie your job. Honestly if Buddism functions with any view of reincarnation there would be a lot of snails because the vast majority of people I have come acrosss in life including myself would probally deserve to be reincarnated as a snail. Although this may seem as though it is said in jest I am very serious.

[fireball37]

Buddhist reincarnation doesn't work that way, the very process of being born again and living life again is what comes about from not having enlightenment, all life is full of suffering and ultimately the only way to avoid it is to surpass it, as Buddha reportedly did.

[Sytem Lord Yu]

Buddhist reincarnation doesn't work that way, the very process of being born again and living life again is what comes about from not having enlightenment, all life is full of suffering and ultimately the only way to avoid it is to surpass it, as Buddha reportedly did.

Correct, But.... in order to surpass it you have to gain enlightenment, and then if you don't make it the first time, you have spent that whole fisrt life as a monk. In Buddhism reicarnation, you do not, move up, down, left, right, you staty the same, because of karma, now, i don't really understand what karma has to do with that, cuz i can't really understnad what the people say..lol.... so if you have any info on that, i would really ike to hear it, well read it that is...lol...But yes, Way you are once again correct, bout the Hindu reincarnation, you do move up or down on tha cast system. and i do agree with the whole snail part to, its hard to live a life to just go up on the cast system scale like that..lol

[TheWay]

You both are correct and I didn’t mean to imply that Buddhism is the same as Hinduism actually I believe it is close to the complete opposite. I went and studied some of the information on rebirth and Buddhism which seems to be the correct term rather than reincarnation. Rebirth is not directly related to karma in that if we are discussing rebirth back into humanity it is not determined by karma it seems to be a almost random event. The rebirth seems to occur carrying with it the karma of the past life hence why some children are revered as past visionaries or great people. Now the real interesting thing isn’t the rebirth into the human cycle of suffering but rather than many other cycles possible. This is where I would exit the bus because it doesn’t leave me with any hope at all. Apparently karma dictates if you will reach enlightenment and karma seems to be in a simplistic sense morality whether they are moral or not is what karma is on a basic level. Now if one is moral he will move up the transcended chart of being. Buddha to self, Buddha to others, Buddha over all (has escaped the circle of suffering), with the term Buddha meaning teacher or even enlightened teacher hence the current Buddha who is Buddha on earth to others. Now this may seem great except you may not move up but based on your karma you may actually move downward and become a beast or two other evil things I don’t recall at the moment. You see for me the problem is karma itself although this idea moral in it’s being that is the problem because we are not moral at least not to the degree that true morality would require. Looking again at the four truths and the eightfold path what direction do you think you would be heading with accumulation of your karma?

[Sytem Lord Yu]

That is very interesting Way, i really did not know that bout karma, i am very glad you told me that

Ok now i have a new religion for you guys, Its called Wicca!

is a neopagan, nature-based religion. Although Wiccan views on theology vary, the vast majority of Wiccans venerate a Goddess and a God. These are variously understood through the frameworks of pantheism (as being dual aspects of a single godhead), duotheism or polytheism. In some pantheistic and duotheistic conceptions, deities from diverse cultures may be seen as aspects of the Goddess or God.For most Wiccans, Wicca is a duotheistic religion worshipping both a God and a Goddess, who are seen as complementary polarities (akin to the Taoist philosophy of yin and yang), and "embodiments of a life-force manifest in nature." The God is sometimes symbolised as the sun, and the Goddess as the moon.

Traditionally the God is viewed as a Horned God of nature. He is often seen as a god of woodlands, sexuality, and hunting. In this form he is equated with the ancient pagan deities such as the Celtic god Cernunnos and Greek god Pan. At other times the God is viewed as the Green Man, a traditional figure in art and architecture of Europe, or as a sun god (particularly at the festival of Litha, or the summer solstice). Another depiction of the God is as the Oak King and the Holly King, one who rules over Spring and Summer, the other who rules over Autumn and Winter.
The Goddess is usually portayed as a Triple Goddess with aspects of "Maiden", "Mother" and "Crone". Some Wiccans see the Goddess as pre-eminent, since she contains and conceives all; the God is the spark of life and inspiration within her, simultaneously her lover and her child. This is reflected in the traditional structure of the coven. In some traditions, notably feminist Dianic Wicca, the Goddess is seen as complete unto herself, and the God is not worshipped at all, though this is a controversial belief.
According to Gerald Gardner, the gods of Wicca are prehistoric gods of the British Isles: a Horned God and a Great Mother goddess. Little evidence, however, has been produced for this.
The origins of Wicca are much debated. Gerald Gardner brought the religion to public attention in the early 1950s. He claimed that, after returning to England on his retirement from a career spent in Asia, he encountered a coven of witches located in the New Forest in southern England, (the "New Forest coven") and was initiated into it. In line with the popular Witch-cult hypothesis, he claimed that the religion practised by the coven was a survival of a pagan religion of pre-historic Europe, known as Witchcraft to its adherents. Subsequently fearing that the religion would die out, he published details of its beliefs and practices in a series of books: his novel High Magic's Aid (1949) and his non-fiction works Witchcraft Today (1954) and The Meaning of Witchcraft (1959). These books helped to attract many new initiates to a coven that he formed, the London-based Bricket Wood coven.
Gardner reported that the rites of the New Forest coven were fragmentary, and that he substantially rewrote them. Many of the rituals and precepts that he promoted can be shown to have come from the writings of earlier occultists (such as Aleister Crowley) and other writers (including Rudyard Kipling and Sir James Frazer). The remaining original material is uncohesive, and mostly takes the form of substitutions or expansions within unoriginal material. Roger Dearnaley describes Gardner's texts as a "patchwork".
Most if not all of the elements of Gardner's version of events have subsequently been questioned, including the very existence of the New Forest coven. It has been posited by authors such as Aidan Kelly and Francis X. King that Gardner invented the witch rituals in their entirety, incorporating elements from the writings of Dr. Margaret Murray, incantations from Aradia and practices deriving from ceremonial magic. Some of Gardner's historical claims are consistent with ideas that were current in the earlier part of the 20th century but are in conflict with later scholarship. The idea of a supreme Mother Goddess, for example, was common in Victorian and Edwardian literature: the concept of a Horned God — especially related to the gods Pan or Faunus — was less common, but still significant. Both of these ideas were widely accepted in academic literature and the popular press at the time.
There is many more things on Wicca, (personally i don't practice it I'm Buddhist/Atheist, but think it is very interesting), i would also like to see comments on this one too.

[TheWay]

I will argue this issue but first I will honestly warn those of the Christian persuasion and even those who are not that there are aspects of the Wiccan culture that contain real power and should not be dealt casually or without care. Let me be clear all religions have fringe elements and I am not claiming in this post that all those who believe follow this path which I am warning about however I will exercise my right to speak up on this subject with a strong warning. Do not enter into this lightly and be careful what you read, exercise wisdom and restraint, know your limits.

I can already here the comments being formed on how what I am saying is so ridiculous but let me remind you I am a well informed and intelligent person and as such I am not saying these things based on fear alone but based on prudent judgment and actual experience both emotionally, and intellectually. Currently the FBI has an open case file full of Wiccan related abductions, murders and many other things that will go unsaid. Do not reference me with the Salem witch trials, as this is not the same thing although I am sure you will hop on the opportunity to attack me in this light. These things are real they are not funny and they effect real people many of which have escaped this lifestyle both as children and adults and have been interviewed by the FBI who to this day has not made many arrests because of the secrecy associated with these fringe Wiccan groups. Many of the so called sacraments associated with these groups are used as toys and novelty items by many today but they are no joke I implore those of faith on this forum to simply stay away from these things you do not need to understand them nor approach them in any sense.

Matter a fact after writing this I have decided not to take part in this discussion because I do not wish to encourage those of faith to study this subject rather I will lead by example by kindly taking a back seat to this discussion until a new religion is chosen to discuss, think less of me if you like but this is a matter of principle and I would rather be embarrassed on this forum then lead anyone down the wrong path of knowledge, the idea that all knowledge is good is not correct nor do I accept the assertion in any sense.

[Thriller]

I will argue this issue but first I will honestly warn those of the Christian persuasion and even those who are not that there are aspects of the Wiccan culture that contain real power and should not be dealt casually or without care. Let me be clear all religions have fringe elements and I am not claiming in this post that all those who believe follow this path which I am warning about however I will exercise my right to speak up on this subject with a strong warning. Do not enter into this lightly and be careful what you read, exercise wisdom and restraint, know your limits.

I can already here the comments being formed on how what I am saying is so ridiculous but let me remind you I am a well informed and intelligent person and as such I am not saying these things based on fear alone but based on prudent judgment and actual experience both emotionally, and intellectually. Currently the FBI has an open case file full of Wiccan related abductions, murders and many other things that will go unsaid. Do not reference me with the Salem witch trials, as this is not the same thing although I am sure you will hop on the opportunity to attack me in this light. These things are real they are not funny and they effect real people many of which have escaped this lifestyle both as children and adults and have been interviewed by the FBI who to this day has not made many arrests because of the secrecy associated with these fringe Wiccan groups. Many of the so called sacraments associated with these groups are used as toys and novelty items by many today but they are no joke I implore those of faith on this forum to simply stay away from these things you do not need to understand them nor approach them in any sense.

Matter a fact after writing this I have decided not to take part in this discussion because I do not wish to encourage those of faith to study this subject rather I will lead by example by kindly taking a back seat to this discussion until a new religion is chosen to discuss, think less of me if you like but this is a matter of principle and I would rather be embarrassed on this forum then lead anyone down the wrong path of knowledge, the idea that all knowledge is good is not correct nor do I accept the assertion in any sense.

I love when people tell me not to do something because it's to dangerous, especially when they really have no ground for the assertion.

Do you work for the FBI?
Do you know practitioners of the Wicca faith personally?

Knowledge is always good, the problem your pointing out deals with the persons choices in applying it.

[Sytem Lord Yu]

OK, Way i understand, i don't think less of you, in fact i insist n people to say what they think, and how they feel, so i will pick a new religion.

Zoroastrianism:
is the religion and philosophy based on the teachings ascribed to the prophet Zoroaster, after whom the religion is named. The term 'Zoroastrianism' is in general usage essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster as the supreme divine authority.

Zoroastrianism was once the dominant religion of much of Greater Iran, and was a formative influence on that region's history and traditions. The religion was marginalized following the Islamic conquests of the mid-7th century, after which the number of adherents dwindled significantly, and there are less than 20,000 Zoroastrians left in that region today. Today, the largest indigenous population of Zoroastrians is in India, where they number about 70,000. Eight of the nine principal religious centers are located on the west coast of that country (the ninth is in central Iran).
* There is one universal and transcendental God, Ahura Mazda, the one Uncreated Creator to whom all worship is ultimately directed.
* Ahura Mazda's creation — evident as asha, truth and order — is the antithesis of chaos, evident as druj, falsehood and disorder. The resulting conflict involves the entire universe, including humanity, which has an active role to play in the conflict.
* Active participation in life through good thoughts, good words and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep the chaos at bay. This active participation is a central element in Zoroaster's concept of free will, and Zoroastrianism rejects all forms of monasticism.
* Ahura Mazda will ultimately prevail, at which point the universe will undergo a cosmic renovation and time will end (cf: Zoroastrian eschatology). In the final renovation, all of creation — even the souls of the dead that were initially banished to "darkness" — will be reunited in Ahura Mazda. At the end of time a savior-figure [a Saoshyant] will bring about a final renovation of the world, and in which the dead will be revived.[1]
* There will then be a final purgation of evil from the Earth (through a tidal wave of molten metal) and a purgation of evil from the heavens (through a cosmic battle of spiritual forces). In the end good will triumph, and each person will find himself or herself transformed into a spiritualized body and soul. Those who died as adults will be transformed into healthy adults of forty years of age, and those who died young will find themselves permanently youthful, about age fifteen. In these new spiritual bodies, humans will live without food, without hunger or thirst, and without weapons (or possibility of bodily injury). The material substance of the bodies will be so light as to cast no shadow. All humanity will speak a single language and belong to a single nation without borders. All will experience immortality (Ameretat) and will share a single purpose and goal, joining with the divine for a perpetual exaltation of God’s glory.[2]
* In Zoroastrian tradition the malevolent is represented by Angra Mainyu, the "Destructive Principle", while the benevolent is represented through Ahura Mazda's Spenta Mainyu, the instrument or "Bounteous Principle" of the act of creation. It is through Spenta Mainyu that transcendental Ahura Mazda is immanent in humankind, and through which the Creator interacts with the world. According to Zoroastrian cosmology, in articulating the Ahuna Vairya formula Ahura Mazda made His ultimate triumph evident to Angra Mainyu.
* As expressions and aspects of Creation, Ahura Mazda emanated seven "sparks", the Amesha Spentas ("Bounteous Immortals"), that are each the hypostasis and representative of one aspect of that Creation. These Amesha Spenta are in turn assisted by a league of lesser principles, the Yazatas, each "Worthy of Worship" and each again a hypostasis of a moral or physical aspect of creation.

this is just some of what i can find, and understand.

[Sholva]

htere is one god each religion sees him in a diffrent form eg allah, jesus mary, etc but eact originally preached the same love and kindness but from people over the centurys they have changed to be extemlley agaisnt each other and people who say other religions are wrong are wrong in them selves casue all of them mostly in some way mean the same thing

hopes eople agrees with me

sholva

[urogard]

can we get some random scientology noob into this discussion, we leave and let him bash his head in with the other bible fanatics and then we come back and just clear away the bodies and we proclaim we solved 2 problems simultaneously?

[Demeisen]

can we get some random scientology noob into this discussion, we leave and let him bash his head in with the other bible fanatics and then we come back and just clear away the bodies and we proclaim we solved 2 problems simultaneously?

dude you must have had some divine inspiration there (praise mooby). fantastic idea

[urogard]

dude you must have had some divine inspiration there (praise mooby). fantastic idea

I prefer to call that recurring phenomenon flash of insight