should the state of Israel be allowed to exist...

[[KMA]Avenger]

no, they are tags...tags means man made.

[Deaths_Rider]

the Catholic and (christian)Prodestant Faiths are very different as are the orthadox Christian churches which is also put in the larger Christian group and you obviously no even less about the muslim faith as shiite, sunni and sufi are the three main braches that are lumped together to be called the muslim faith but since you didn't ask about them as well i take it you had no interest to learn about the people you want to destroy

and before you ask i'm Australian of english desent i'm non-muslim but i don't see how being an arab or muslim should change the effect of the words but obiously you do

[[KMA]Avenger]

i take it that's directed at iNFiNiTY?

[Deaths_Rider]

sorry at infinity
i realise destroy may have been a bit harsh as you didn't say that i should have said badmouth

still getting used to using forums as you can see this is only my 18th post still new to the whole thing forgive some mistakes

[[KMA]Avenger]

we all have to start somewhere mate, welcome to the forum

[Tacet]

1, given that even the holly book, The Torah, explicitly states that a Jewish state of Israel is forbidden, should it even exist?
There is a fairly small movement that believes this, the Neturei Karta. As to yet I couldn't find any reference that would even bother quoting the Torah to show where it says that a Jewish state is forbidden. In fact, most Jewish Rabbis and scholars are in favour of a Jewish state.

The argument is based on what is called the "Three Oaths", which are from the Song of Songs:

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 2:7).

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 3:5).

* I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem: Why should ye awaken, or stir up love, until it please? (Song of Songs 8:4).

From these various interpretations are made as to the content of the Three Oaths, a fairly simple interpretation being:
What are these Three Oaths [written in the Song of Songs 2:7, 3:5 and 8:4 ]? One, that Israel should not storm the wall [RaShI interprets: forcefully]. Two, the Holy One made Israel take an oath not to rebel against the nations of the world. Three, the Holy One made the nations vow that they would not oppress Israel too much

I don't proclaim to understand how they managed to arrive at the Three Oaths from the given three verses, but it shows that it is a matter open to mis-interpretation and debate.



also, Palestine was NEVER a land without people for a people without land, unless the Canaanite people who inhabited that land originally (and whom the Palestinians are direct descendants of) are a fictitious people!
If you want to follow this line of debate, you'll have to agree that the USA shouldn't be allowed to exist, either. The land originally belonged to the native peoples of the country, and was forcibly taken from them by the settlers. By the same argument, South-Africa will have to be divided into several smaller countries: one for the white people (a piece of land that was bought from Zulu king Dingane) and one for the Zulus, one for the Xhosas... The list goes on.

The rest of your arguments, valid though they might be, are aimed at the conduct and policies of Israel, and not at the existence of the state.

As to Israel's policies - there are a few that I really disagree with. Yet I disagree with Hamas' "no more Israel" policy even more.

[Kit-Fox]

If I recall correctly there is no such statement in the Torah that says Isreal shouldnt exist. The statement is that a Jewish state can only be created by God and not by man.

[Thriller]

or should it disbanded and returned to its rightful (for lack of a better word) owners?

i'm going to make this a poll in a few days, but first we seriously need to think about and have greater understanding of what it is we are voting on, read this again because all to quickly people vote on these boards without reading...

but first we seriously need to think about and have greater understanding what it is we are voting on.

there will be no anti-Jewish propaganda or hate posting going on here by ANYONE who wishes to discuss this topic like an adult and with an open mind!

lets take a look at a chart of Israels growing theft of land from the Palestinian people since the late 1940's first of all:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

now lets have a look at what true Jews think of this theft. this is a site where it shows pictures of orthodox Jews rallying all over the word:

http://www.nkusa.org/

[spoiler][/spoiler]

1, given that even the holly book, The Torah, explicitly states that a Jewish state of Israel is forbidden, should it even exist?
wrong

2, and having seen that the Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed, how is this any different to whats happened in the Balkans, Iraq, China/Tibet, and MANY other country's round the world? how can we justify the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of "Freeing" the Iraqi people and bringing down a dangerous dictator (a dictator who was placed in power, financed and kept there by the Americans i might add) when exactly the same thing is happening in Palestine??
wrong, false parallel and false assumptions about your premises being correct

3, when Palestinians go blowing themselves up, how can we condemn this act but by the same breath, find no condemnation for what the Israelis have done and continue to do?
Correct, both sides perpetuate the violence. But, again you presume to much

4, allot people don't know this but, an American woman in her early 20's was run over with an Israeli (American built and supplied) bulldozer while trying to stop the destruction of a doctors home!
Rachel Corrie-the girl with the biggest dream and biggest heart.

this is a 9 minute video about Rachel and parts of this film are not easy to watch:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FyrQL-ZhMy4
WTH, are you trying to prove with this
5, how many of you know about this Irish woman who was shot by Israelis for simply protesting?

Mairead Maguire, irish Nobel Peace Laureate (1976).

3.5 min video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YUF05gKJJgw

theres so much MORE that i have learned about whats going on in Palestine and why its happening, suffice to say that its NOT what people think or what the media is spinning. don't listen to the medias lies about Palestine. given that Israel is supposed to uphold human rights why is there no outcry from the rest of the world?! because of media spin!

also, Palestine was NEVER a land without people for a people without land, unless the Canaanite people who inhabited that land originally (and whom the Palestinians are direct descendants of) are a fictitious people!

whats happening is nothing short of genocide in our modern age, so how is this different to what Hitler did? we went to war with Germany because of Hitler and similar events, how quickly we forget!

Palestinians are not direct descendants of the Canaanites. Plz learn some actual history of the region before you go and make me take you to the cleaners about this issue. Stop drawing false parallels, your kind of thinking is perpetuating the violence over there.

[[KMA]Avenger]

well i don't speak the language and i don't trust translations, i would sooner trust a Rabbi telling me what is written and what is not. 1 Orthodox Jew saying something is written is 1 thing, but when you have Rabbi's telling you the same thing, well its upto the individual to see if he's being lied to but bear in mind that there are pictures of Orthodox Jews holding banners that say in English that the state shouldn't exist.

as for america and the natives that were wiped out, those thoughts did cross my mind but that's long in the past and we are not likely to bring those people back, same with africa and every other country/peoples this has happened to. same cannot be said for whats going on in the here and now.

@ Thriller, please don't just make statements like that, if i'm wrong (which all my research has led me to that knowledge) then show me where i am wrong and tell me who they are descendants of!

[Juliette]

Avenger, you crossed a line, and show that your brain actually works in a strange way. That's a bit crude, but I am talking about your complete lack of a logical mind. Work on that.
You do not understand your own sources.. so go back to reading, and when you are informed on the matter, return and make a decent attempt at making a point. Until then, this is nonsense and not worthy of further response, other than the above (for educative purposes).

[Thriller]

well i don't speak the language and i don't trust translations, i would sooner trust a Rabbi telling me what is written and what is not. 1 Orthodox Jew saying something is written is 1 thing, but when you have Rabbi's telling you the same thing, well its upto the individual to see if he's being lied to but bear in mind that there are pictures of Orthodox Jews holding banners that say in English that the state shouldn't exist.

as for america and the natives that were wiped out, those thoughts did cross my mind but that's long in the past and we are not likely to bring those people back, same with africa and every other country/peoples this has happened to. same cannot be said for whats going on in the here and now.

The jewish leaders interpreted their scripture back in 1948 to mean, that the land they now occupy, as the land promised to moses after he left Egypt.

There is a small faction of jewish zionists who believe that the country shouldn't exist. Because they interpreted the scripture differently. This can be compared to any anti-American, anti- "insert state here" protesters . Not everyone will agree on the way things are and some will protest. But the people who believe this are the minority among the jewish people.

Debating "the whose interpretation of their faith is correct" will do nothing to further your argument about why the Jews should leave Israel and you should probably leave it alone avenger.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i'm not looking to point fingers as to who is right and who is wrong, i think the situation deserves more respect than that, and that's not what this thread is about.

@universe...you have completely lost me, but then again, the fact that you want to see all people dead kind of defeats any argument you might have in this kind of thread

[Thriller]

i'm not looking to point fingers as to who is right and who is wrong, i think the situation deserves more respect than that, and that's not what this thread is about.

Then whytf did you bring it up to further your argument. You should have researched further and then you would have known it was conjecture to begin with, but you didn't. Like the majority of everything else you post you read something that agreed and complimented your world view, not taking a second thought about weather or not it's the truth. (and you wounder why i sometimes come off as a being upset with you)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaan
I just read over the wiki on it and it's pretty close to what i learned in school.

[[KMA]Avenger]

since when did this become personal?

this thread is about the injustice that's being done to the Palestinian people with the help of American backing and our ignorance.

btw, was you taught at school that 80% of Israel is actually owned by the Rothschilds?

[Thriller]

since when did this become personal?

this thread is about the injustice that's being done to the Palestinian people with the help of American backing and our ignorance.

btw, was you taught at school that 80% of Israel is actually owned by the Rothschilds?

LOl okay, i'm done... i thought i could transform this thread into a serious discussion about the Israel/Palestine conflict with you...... I'm done here.