Abortion

[Mister Sandman]

[spoiler]

Logically, humanity deosnt complain if everything is "hunky dory".

or if complaining would result in action against them. would you complain if a lion pushes in front of you in a queue? or if a menacing government watches you would you complain about them?

This is irrelevant to the argument. Simply saying: If you have nothing to complain about. Why complain?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

And how is this a real case? With modern medical practices chances of survival are much higher. How can you say with 100% of a doubt that the mother would die? Abortion is not a treatment, it is a medical procedure, difference being that abortion doesnt treat anything, it just takes unborn life away.

so you cannot answer the question as it will demonstrate clearly the flaws and coldness of your religion.I can answer the question. However, I still find the case impossible with modern day technology. and it is not a real case. it is a fictional First of all I take out your fallacious definition of "fiction"example which i thought was quite easy to understand.[/spoiler]



[spoiler]can you not answer within the confines of my example? Your example is a trapping one. my example in which the mother would die if she didnt have an abortion. and in which the baby would die also.You cannot know for sure. if an abortion is carried out the mother would survive. its saving one life (which is not the be wasted, according to you) instead of loosing two lifes would you agree that abortion is justifiable in a case such as this?

MURDER CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED. Murder is wrong in all circumstances

For example...

Do you murder one person for the sake of 10 others lives?

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

They weren't civilians. In addion the death of the sons was symbolic...

right so i assume you claim those children were some sort of military formation. to me that is a cheap and inadequate answer. if i kill a child and claim it was symbolic the child remains murdered. you are twisting yourself up in your own poor logic.

murder is wrong in all circumstances. oh wait its ok when God murders.
forgiveness is key to christianity. always forgive. oh wait you can wipe out thousands of kids in revenge if you are God.

Why not bring up the case of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Did God murder them? NO He judged them and they got killed.

And, the old testament is different to the new testament. Get your facts straight.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]

Murder under all circumstances is not ok. Yet again you misconceive the point.

using absolute reasoning its easy to say God sinned by murdering many, many people. if murder is never acceptable (as you yourself have insisted) that means God was wrong to do it. God, wrong, consider the implications mate. . .

However, God didn't murder. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]

...If you had your way, we would be monkeys with no common sense or logic....

if i had my way stupidity would warrant execution for persistent offenders.
Then you would be executed then.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

In essence you still haven't proven the bible wrong, in fact you've strengthen my views that the Bible is factual.

it has been done (see previous debate where the bible is proven to contain false information)
if being shown evidence that contradicts your beliefs reinforces them thats not healthy. a normal person would re-evaluate their ideas when presented with strong proof against them.
Arha, but you havent shown any evidence that have contradicted my beliefs. Im sorry but your so called victory is in your head.

you sir are a fanatic and will therefore believe as you do regardless of any evidence. you have shown that implicitly.
Sir, if that is ment to be a insult you should try harder. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]christianity (any most major religions) has punished, controlled, demonised and heaped blame upon women. making abortion a sin is just another rule made up by male religious leaders

How is it made up? Thou shalt not murder....[/spoiler]

To answer the question whether God breaks His own commandments, we need to determine if God committed murder (i.e., killed people without cause). The Bible is quite clear that God has killed people directly (the most prominent example being the flood) and indirectly (ordered peoples to be killed). If God ordered or participated in the killing of innocent people, then He would be guilty of murder.

[Thriller]

sandman you're a really nice hypocrite

first you say abortion is murder and murder is wrong
then you come again saying murder is right

make up your mind and stick with it

I never said murder is right. Mark my words: Murder is wrong. Abortion is murder.

Please show me where I said murder is right. NOWHERE.

Feel free to slander me. I know where I stand. I am NOT a hypocrite.

You guys, the church says it's wrong to have an abortion.

That's why you should use a condom..... oh wait...

It is not just the church.. and

Yes. Play it safe! If you MUST have sex. Use a condom, Use the Pill is conception.

Yes the church does, and the catholic church says it's immoral to use condoms.....
uh oh, looks you got some explaining to do

[Mister Sandman]

Yes the church does, and the catholic church says it's immoral to use condoms.....
uh oh, looks you got some explaining to do

1. Where do they say it?
2. Where is your evidence for your claim?
3. The "catholic church" isnt all powerful.
4. Your assumptions of Christianity , yet again, are flawed by your own ignorance.
5. Im not a catholic, nor do I follow any particular denomination really. Christianity is a personal belief. A personal relationship with Jesus, and God. Not some doctorate I blindly follow.

[Demeisen]

You guys, the church says it's wrong to have an abortion.

That's why you should use a condom..... oh wait...

quotes from sandman

so you cannot answer the question as it will demonstrate clearly the flaws and coldness of your religion.I can answer the question. However, I still find the case impossible with modern day technology. and it is not a real case. it is a fictional First of all I take out your fallacious definition of "fiction"example which i thought was quite easy to understand.

it is quite possible

Your example is a trapping one

you mean a good example that you cant evade with religious answers. i accept your praise with humility.

MURDER CAN NOT BE JUSTIFIED. Murder is wrong in all circumstances
For example...
Do you murder one person for the sake of 10 others lives?

murder can be justified. i would happily kill someone if they were about to kill a bunch of innocent bystanders. does your final part mean murder one person to save ten lives, or murder one person to save 10 people some minor trouble? the former is the right to do in my view. although killing to save people from inconvenience is not cool.

Why not bring up the case of Sodom and Gomorrah?
Did God murder them? NO He judged them and they got killed.

And, the old testament is different to the new testament. Get your facts straight.

*sniffs the air*
yes i do smell a weak and insubstantial response. thought i did.
the fact that God judged sodom and gomorrah and then killed the residents suggests he is an executioner of some variety. what happened to murder is murder? God murders in horrible ways with impunity it seems. your clearly defined religious definitions have tripped you in at least two cases now. yet still no admission that you might have been even slightly wrong. tut tut

using absolute reasoning its easy to say God sinned by murdering many, many people. if murder is never acceptable (as you yourself have insisted) that means God was wrong to do it. God, wrong, consider the implications mate. . .

However, God didn't murder.

really. so killing thousands of innocent, defenceless, children and babies is not murder?
you should invest in a dictionary. murder is murder even when dressed up in a shiney coat with God sewn onto the back. you worship a mass murderer.

if i had my way stupidity would warrant execution for persistent offenders.
Then you would be executed then.

that would be suicide which is a sin. please dont encourage sin

Im sorry but your so called victory is in your head.

which happens to be the only place real victory can be appreciated. knowing myself and others won the previous debate is enough for most of us.

How is it made up? Thou shalt not murder....unless you are God, in which case you may kill freely and without mercy

it is made up in the sense that its not a natural thing to make someone suffer and die for want of a life saving abortion.

To answer the question whether God breaks His own commandments, we need to determine if God committed murder (i.e., killed people without cause). The Bible is quite clear that God has killed people directly (the most prominent example being the flood) and indirectly (ordered peoples to be killed). If God ordered or participated in the killing of innocent people, then He would be guilty of murder.

so which is more likely, God is a mass murderer, or the bible got some things wrong? i personally dont believe that an omnipotent being would kill people by the millions at a whim.

1. Where do they say it?
some christians (and churches) have opposed the use of condoms. i believe there was a big argument in Brazil when the government started giving out condoms to combat the aids epidemic. the church said it was bad as it encouraged people to have that sinful sex. again christianity puts religious rules above the well being and health of its followers 8)
2. Where is your evidence for your claim?
3. The "catholic church" isnt all powerful.
it was once and is probably well pissed it isnt still. if it could be it would be. thankfully the age of science and reason diminished the churches iron grip upon the lives of its people.
4. Your assumptions of Christianity , yet again, are flawed by your own ignorance.

5. Im not a catholic, nor do I follow any particular denomination really. Christianity is a personal belief. A personal relationship with Jesus, and God. Not some doctorate I blindly follow. yet you do. you have asserted your belief that the bible is true and theres no doubt about it. and you follow every word it says. you blindly follow the bible. if you follow anything regardless of what its content is you will not need to look to see its truth. you will follow blindly.

[spoiler]And on the 8th day, God created Waffles.

God bless Waffles[/spoiler]

[Mister Sandman]

murder can be justified. i would happily kill someone if they were about to kill a bunch of innocent bystanders.

Would that be classed as murder? Would it be considerd murder if you kill somone who has the intent of killing you? Is if murder if you kill somone who is trespassing and braking the law?

does your final part mean murder one person to save ten lives, or murder one person to save 10 people some minor trouble? the former is the right to do in my view. although killing to save people from inconvenience is not cool.

They way I imply the question should not effect your answer.

*sniffs the air*
yes i do smell a weak and insubstantial response. thought i did.
the fact that God judged sodom and gomorrah and then killed the residents suggests he is an executioner of some variety.

Note your key word there. Killed, not murdered. I suggest you should read it and find out why.

what happened to murder is murder?

Murder is murder, however, God doesnt murder.

God murders in horrible ways with impunity it seems. your clearly defined religious definitions have tripped you in at least two cases now. yet still no admission that you might have been even slightly wrong. tut tut

There is a difference between murder and killing. How can I be wrong, when im right.

really. so killing thousands of innocent, defenceless, children and babies is not murder? you should invest in a dictionary. murder is murder even when dressed up in a shiney coat with God sewn onto the back. you worship a mass murderer.

First of all, I wouldn't say innocent, and I wouldn't say they are defenceless. And it isn't murderer, it was the ultimate punishment for sin.

Secondly, I do not worship a mass murderer, and I think many people would find that you saying that would be an insult. Please keep your petty insults to yourself.

How is it made up? Thou shalt not murder....unless you are God, in which case you may kill freely and without mercyDon't twist my words. My statement stands alone. Oh, and Yes God can break his rules, but the God I know is not hypercritical and wont brake his laws.

it is made up in the sense that its not a natural thing to make someone suffer and die for want of a life saving abortion.

"life saving" you surely mean "life killing".

so which is more likely, God is a mass murderer, or the bible got some things wrong? i personally dont believe that an omnipotent being would kill people by the millions at a whim.

Or your both wrong on both accounts. The Bible is fact. And God is not a mass murderer.

1. Where do they say it?

some christians (and churches) have opposed the use of condoms. i believe there was a big argument in Brazil when the government started giving out condoms to combat the aids epidemic. So?
the church said it was bad as it encouraged people to have that sinful sex.
Well, we should not condone sin. However, that is still besides the point. They are not against the use of condoms they are against the apparent rise in sexual immortality associated with it.

again christianity puts religious rules above the well being and health of its followers Not true, if they didnt have sex with multiple partners to start with ... then who knows, maybe not so many would have STDs.

2. Where is your evidence for your claim? You still have not presented evidence .



3. The "catholic church" isnt all powerful.

it was once and is probably well **Filtered** it isnt still. if it could be it would be. thankfully the age of science and reason diminished the churches iron grip upon the lives of its people.


The Catholic was never all powerful. In addition, it wasn't the age of science that shifted the move away from the church. It is having the Bible available to the common folk, and as commoners got better educated they had their own translation.

4. Your assumptions of Christianity , yet again, are flawed by your own ignorance.

5. Im not a catholic, nor do I follow any particular denomination really. Christianity is a personal belief. A personal relationship with Jesus, and God. Not some doctorate I blindly follow.

yet you do. you have asserted your belief that the bible is true and theres no doubt about it. and you follow every word it says. you blindly follow the bible. if you follow anything regardless of what its content is you will not need to look to see its truth. you will follow blind

There is no doubt that the Bible is true. And I try to follow every word it says, but not blindly. I question why i follow. And wiegh it up with all the other options for my lifestyle.

Liquid your driving off topic. This tread is about Abortion. Stick to the topic. I will not answer your attacks on Christianity in this thread any longer. if you wish. Make a new thread and I will answer there.

[Londo Mollari]

hmmm

well i agree with abortion personally

i'd also point out that in some cases, the child would be born into poverty/abuse and would have such a low quality of life, that abortion could be considered to be saving the child from such a horrible fate

[Demeisen]

abortions for the poor. . .

if there is a chance of abuse adoption is available

[Juliette]

I agree with abortion to limit the number of births of failures.

[David Bliss]

There will never be a yes or no to abortion because everyone's opinion is different.

[Demeisen]

I agree with abortion to limit the number of births of failures.

such as failed clowns?

[Lore]

I believe it depends on a case by case basis.

I do not believe it should be used as a form of birthcontrol.

but in cases of Rape, insest, defortmity, or risk to life of mother, child or both.

[Gigs]

Risk of mother is only way for you to have a abortion in my mind.

Because IT IS MURDER.
Just because their small and can't fend for themselves or not fully "Human Yet" Dosn't mean you can just kill them for your connivence cause you and jimmy had sex with out a condom and now don't want to baby.


Point being abortion is murder in any other way except for saving the moms life if she highly at risk

[Spyridon]

God is not above law. If you commit murder, you are a murderer.

Personally, I believe yes, that it is the mother's choice.

On another note, I was deeply offended by what Sandman wrote before.

Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.

69% of female victims reported that the offender was someone they knew.

68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.

In cases of rape, the fundamental thing that drives rapists is the power over the victim, to have them vulnerable to you. We just had a girl raped on campus just because she was heading back to her dorm after class. Another rape in Montana where a teenager had been raped by her father and carried 4 of his children where only one survived.

Another thing is that in some cases, one's morality is defined by their religion.

[Ashu]

I do NOT believe that the slaughter of our own kind is a solution in ANY case.Have my head for it but its the truth!

[Spyridon]

There is a reason why I say let the mother choose. It may seem like a pradox but here it goes.

by giving the women the ability to decide, they can decide to abort the pregnancy or choose to keep it whether it be based on that it is morally wrong or not. It's the only way both choices can be given.