Christianity Debate (spliced from Scientology debate)

[Demeisen]

avoidance of sin leads to a greater and more for filling life

i beg to differ. meh when you are 60 and look back on your life im sure you will have fun memories full of obeying rules. i pity you.


You pity me? I pity you.

All terms of fun is retaliative. It is joy that makes us fully appreciate what has happened in our life, the good and the bad.

Lets take a common sin. Sexual sin. It is common nature to sleep around these days before marriage. Strangely enough, more partners you have the less likely you are going to get married, and the more likely you are going to get devoiced. Sex is respect, if you do not save yourself for your wife/husband, your disrespecting them. Also, sex isnt all fun and games, there are things called STDs, unplanned pregnancy (which usually lead to murder or as the people in medical professions say abortion) and other ramifications.


Lets take another sin. Theft. Common sense, if you dont like beening stolen from, why would one steal? Money? Greed? Desperation? Glory?

In no such case someone should resort to theft.


your life is relatively boring. sex between consenting adults is not illegal and cannot be grouped with theft. also, ever heard of safe sex?

Peter Pan is merely fictional that is common sense.

i used that example as it suits the fictional nature of the bible. i thought you would put 2 and 2 together and for once not end up with GOD!

You have no point.
you have no independant thought

In addition, acts of healing is not just "acts". I guess you've never seen healing acts.

you mean faith healers who shout about the lord while pretending to heal people? they are a joke and further prove how far from reality you live.

How can you judge? You know nothing of this line. Some, admittedly do fake and pretend, however, real judgement will come to them. However, there are genuine devotions, genuine acts of healing.

has a case of faith healing ever been proven to the satisfaction of (neutral) medical experts? no.

Both the new and old testament must be read if your going to have a clear depiction of the bible. Your whole translation will be highly influenced. It is like me reading half a book, taking it out of context for not all of it has been read.

this is quite simple to understand, even for a creationist. it does not matter how much of the bible i have read. if i read half a book, the half i read would not change after i read the other half. the evil events in the old testament are not affected by the new testament. they are still there for all to see. the bible is not one story. its a collection of stories. this means that what i have read is the entire biblical account of many events and thats all i need to evaluate them. a person can watch, understand and enjoy the 1st godfather film without having to watch the later ones.


I will use simple English for you.
1. You must understand everything in context.
2. You must not ignorantly use things out of context.
3. Both the old and new testament is one book. And thus, to gain a clear picture of meaning, both parts have been read. It is like me watching half of a movie and making pre-judgements.
4.Events of the old testament are not affected by the new treatment, yes however, understanding is affected.
5. The bible on no accord depicts God as evil and nor is he.

1. i have read complete stories from the bible therefore i know everything about those tales which i need to in order to comment and put them into context. any additional information about those stories was added later and is irrelevant as it does not change the events described.
2. you love using the word context. you have latched onto even though it doesnt help back up your medieval attitude.
3./4. i begin to doubt your intelligence. perhaps capital letters will help?
IN THE FILM GLADIATOR THE FAMILY OF MAXIMUS ARE MURDERED IN THE 1ST HALF OF THE FILM. THE 2ND HALF GIVES MORE UNDERSTANDING TO HIS STORY BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE THE EVENTS. HIS FAMILY REMAIN MURDERED. the horrific events in the old testament remain horrific.
5. genocide is evil. christians want people to aspire to live by the morals of the bible

I dont deny that the old testament is somewhat "old". It may tell of brutality, nether the less you still prove nothing.

somewhat old? thats a poor effort. how long did you spend dismissing words like evil, violent, primitave, shocking and wrong? i prove how stupid and intentionally ignorant some people are.

I will not dismiss the truth. At times the old testament do tell of violence, evils, and other such primitive behaviour but this is on no accord to do with the reality of the bible.
you believe the bible is fact. God committed terrible acts of violence and cruelty in the bible. do you deny that is fact?

You don't provide evidence to support your claim, where is your evidence, without evidence you have no case. Let me share some evidence:

did you not see this:
'(Judges 19: 23-4) read it yourself'
in this tale a man offers up women to a mob to save his male guest from being sodimized. a woman endured a night of brutal rape and died as a result. the bible said this was the right thing to do. Did it say it were the right thing to do? Where?

A place where there is not one man of Good. I think it had to be destroyed.

you forgot Lot there, and possibly a lot more.

Doubt it, God knows everything.
you help me make my point. God saved Lot knowing he would impregnate his daughters and turn into a drunken fool. what kind of God saves a family like that?

Lot, a righteous man surrounded by wickedness. It is telling that Sodom and Gomorrah were so evil and sinful that men of the city rather sodomise to defile man that to be pure.

you entirely miss the point. it does not matter what Lot is surrounded by. he himself offered his daughters to a mob knowing they would be raped and abused. why? to save angels from being sodomized.

I hope you know what sodomy is...and how it is not appropriate of such holiness to be associated with such act.

sacrificing his own daughters and the bible sees this as the right thing to do. explain that.

Sacrificing is self explaining, deeming other as better than oneself.
obviously i know what it means. you're basically saying it was appropriate for Lot to offer his daughters up for abuse to save an angel from being sodomized. why would the angel not 'sacrifice' himself instead of potentially letting two innocent women suffer on his behalf. its not a very nice (or christian) thing for the angel to do.

then explain what happened next. Lot ended up having sex with both of his daughters while he was too drunk to know what was going on. he wasnt too drunk to impregnate them though was he


the all knowing God choose this family to save from Sodom and Gomorrah. he saved a familiy who had incestuous relations with eachother, would offer eachother to a violent mod for a night of abuse and who drank to insensibility. that was the best the all knowing God could do eh? poor judgement on his part. it looks like a huge mistake unless he wanted to save these messed up people. . .


Continuing the family line. Last resort. Not uncommon practice in that era. You may as well say everyone commits incest for we are all related though Adam and eve.
thats sick and if you believe that you are also sick.
incest is a terrible thing. it is illegal and i find the very idea abhorrant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7844366.stm

but we are not related through adam and eve. science (and common sense) has proven that but ill not try to argue using science (my preferred method). you dismiss out of hand all science which contradicts your biblical delusion therefore i use the bible, which you cannot dismiss. and still i easily prove my points are correct.
perhaps the idea of adam and eve's family being a horrible example of inceat doesnt bother you. it bothers me though. if the bible is fact, christianity is built on incest.

According to you there is no God

you are wrong. i believe there could be God. but i would never believe the God portrayed in the bible. if there is a God id like to think he/she was generally good or at least neutral. the biblical God is a bloodthirsty control freak.

And God is Good, not a bloodthirsty control freak in what you somewhat illogically believe.

God may be good. if the bible is to be taken literally he most certainly is not. unless creationists have a vastly different idea of what is good? do creationists like yourself think mass genocide is good?
hmmm if someone handed me a list of commands to obey, told me i must worship him and only him, and that i must do so in the way they dictate, i would call him a control freak.

i am clearly destroying any of the insubstantial and idiotic points you make. i do so using only sense and your bible. i win, you loose

[Mister Sandman]

your life is relatively boring. sex between consenting adults is not illegal and cannot be grouped with theft. also, ever heard of safe sex?

I was using theft as a separate example. Thus, your statement proves you dont read anything I say.

Abstinence is safe sex. Safe sex is conception bmasically... I know what it is. Also, I wasn't saying it was illegal... I suggest you read what i have to say without coming to some judgement that you already have predetermined in your brain.

you have no independant thought

Nothing is independent. Everything is interdependent. However, I do retain my individual belief system because, although everything is connected, everything is distant as well.

1. i have read complete stories from the bible therefore i know everything about those tales which i need to in order to comment and put them into context. any additional information about those stories was added later and is irrelevant as it does not change the events described.
2. you love using the word context. you have latched onto even though it doesnt help back up your medieval attitude.
3./4. i begin to doubt your intelligence. perhaps capital letters will help?
IN THE FILM GLADIATOR THE FAMILY OF MAXIMUS ARE MURDERED IN THE 1ST HALF OF THE FILM. THE 2ND HALF GIVES MORE UNDERSTANDING TO HIS STORY BUT IT DOESNT CHANGE THE EVENTS. HIS FAMILY REMAIN MURDERED. the horrific events in the old testament remain horrific.
5. genocide is evil. christians want people to aspire to live by the morals of the bible

1. You dont know everything, so please do not lie.
2. Everything must be seen in context, and in context with todays society.
3. However, in gladiator we dont know how he is going to react or what is going to happen next (although it is a predictable movie). Yes the events stay the same but re-actions, the lessons, and basically everything are seen, you dont even need to read the new testament to see the obvious lesson. The new testament is totality revolutionises everything, it shows a different understanding, and it presents a new way, the truth, and the light. Read it some time.
4. Genocide is evil eh? That is a highly debatable topic. Would you say the purification of evil is evil?

has a case of faith healing ever been proven to the satisfaction of (neutral) medical experts? no.

Is there such a thing as neutral medical experts? No.
Also, cases of faith healing have been proven.

you believe the bible is fact. God committed terrible acts of violence and cruelty in the bible. do you deny that is fact?

Bible is defiantly a fact. What you state is not at fact, it is a bias.

you help me make my point. God saved Lot knowing he would impregnate his daughters and turn into a drunken fool. what kind of God saves a family like that?

God knows everything, yes, however, he lets man have free will.

obviously i know what it means. you're basically saying it was appropriate for Lot to offer his daughters up for abuse to save an angel from being sodomized. why would the angel not 'sacrifice' himself instead of potentially letting two innocent women suffer on his behalf. its not a very nice (or christian) thing for the angel to do.

You are not very well with the times.

thats sick and if you believe that you are also sick.
incest is a terrible thing. it is illegal and i find the very idea abhorrant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7844366.stm

For this day and age, when the Bible itself commands against it.

but we are not related through adam and eve. science (and common sense) has proven that but ill not try to argue using science (my preferred method). you dismiss out of hand all science which contradicts your biblical delusion therefore i use the bible, which you cannot dismiss. and still i easily prove my points are correct.
perhaps the idea of adam and eve's family being a horrible example of inceat doesnt bother you. it bothers me though. if the bible is fact, christianity is built on incest.

Everything technically was built on incest. Even the animal kingdom. Even plants.

God may be good. if the bible is to be taken literally he most certainly is not. unless creationists have a vastly different idea of what is good? do creationists like yourself think mass genocide is good?it wholly depends .
hmmm if someone handed me a list of commands to obey,[Old testament] told me i must worship him and only himCommon sense, and that i must do so in the way they dictate, i would call him a control freak.

i am clearly destroying any of the insubstantial and idiotic points you make. i do so using only sense and your bible. i win, you loose

And yet you haven't sourced anything from the new testament :O shock. Thus the case, proving all your arguments void. Consisting of no substance. Only existent to prove an absolute truth wrong, which to any man with common sense or logic would find absurd.

[Demeisen]

when i see a response of that quality i wonder if a retard escaped from his cage somewhere in kazakstan and accessed the net. . .

when i clearly prove a point you do not accept it. you are a typical religious fanatic. your mind is captive

congratulations on being an advert for stupidity in fanatical religious cults. you're not even christian. you are a member of some obscure offshoot cult of the braindead.

I was using theft as a separate example. Thus, your statement proves you dont read anything I say.

you wrote 'Lets take another sin.' obviously that tells the reader both are sins, both are linked, both are grouped together. my point is that you were connecting sex with theft, something legal with something illegal. they are not comparable so dont group them. sins are not always crimes

Abstinence is safe sex. Safe sex is conception bmasically... I know what it is. Also, I wasn't saying it was illegal... I suggest you read what i have to say without coming to some judgement that you already have predetermined in your brain.

no silly, abstinence is no sex. no silly, contraception is safe sex. how can you be so wrong in 1 line

i dont know why such a fuss is made over sin anyway. Jesus is the redeemer of all our sins. not just past sins but future ones aswel, whether we commit them or not. so theres no need to avoid sin as Jesus already sorted it for us

1. You dont know everything, so please do not lie.
2. Everything must be seen in context, and in context with todays society.
3. However, in gladiator we dont know how he is going to react or what is going to happen next (although it is a predictable movie). Yes the events stay the same but re-actions, the lessons, and basically everything are seen, you dont even need to read the new testament to see the obvious lesson. The new testament is totality revolutionises everything, it shows a different understanding, and it presents a new way, the truth, and the light. Read it some time.
4. Genocide is evil eh? That is a highly debatable topic. Would you say the purification of evil is evil?

sorry your responses dont count. i cant put them into context as i havent seen the posts you will make in the future


oh and dont get sidetracked. God used his magic to kill thousands of children in eqypt. thats evil and genocide. maybe your cult likes murdering kids and having sex with your family but most people dont. . .

Is there such a thing as neutral medical experts? No.
Also, cases of faith healing have been proven.

no they havent silly. the placebo effect is a medical benefit that could come from faith healing. its not a miracle.

and yes, neutral medical experts are real. to clarify/dumb it down i mean neutral in terms of faith healing. they would have no feelings either way and would let the facts do the speaking.

Everything technically was built on incest. Even the animal kingdom. Even plants.

you are sick and twisted. i feel sorry for any sisters you have.

And yet you haven't sourced anything from the new testament :O shock. Thus the case, proving all your arguments void. Consisting of no substance. Only existent to prove an absolute truth wrong, which to any man with common sense or logic would find absurd.

sigh its the same as the old in that it doesnt really apply to you. unless you are jewish? for example do you know love thy neighbour means love another Jew?

if you follow the bible you are basically a jew. put that bacon sandwich down boy

[Mister Sandman]

when i clearly prove a point you do not accept it. you are a typical religious fanatic. your mind is captive

[color=#FFFF00] My mind is open. I am not enslaved. I know im restricted, but not enslaved. And if you believe you are free, your hopelessly enslaved for Freedom is slavery.

congratulations on being an advert for stupidity in fanatical religious cults. you're not even christian. you are a member of some obscure offshoot cult of the braindead.

I can say the same about you. And I am a Christian, and I do not have to prove anything to you. Believe in your so called "enlighten view" however, i know your hopelessly blinded by yourself.

[/color]

I was using theft as a separate example. Thus, your statement proves you dont read anything I say.

you wrote 'Lets take another sin.' obviously that tells the reader both are sins, both are linked, both are grouped together. my point is that you were connecting sex with theft, something legal with something illegal. they are not comparable so dont group them. sins are not always crimes

Yes both are sins. I wasn't connecting sex with theft. However, it may as well be. Sins are in fact crimes of morality. I listen not to human law, I listen to the only true just law.



Abstinence is safe sex. Safe sex is conception bmasically... I know what it is. Also, I wasn't saying it was illegal... I suggest you read what i have to say without coming to some judgement that you already have predetermined in your brain.

no silly, abstinence is no sex. no silly, contraception is safe sex. how can you be so wrong in 1 line

i dont know why such a fuss is made over sin anyway. Jesus is the redeemer of all our sins. not just past sins but future ones aswel, whether we commit them or not. so theres no need to avoid sin as Jesus already sorted it for us

Abstinence is the best form of contraception. If you cannot fathom that, the little respect I have for you will diminish to no existence.

Why is such a fuss made over sin? Jesus indeed is the redeemer of our sins, however, we are called to be like him. I do not think that a real Christian would go around knowingly and purposely committing sins. There is all need to avoid sin to bring honour unto the lord. To make our life a light, a beacon to find the lost.

1. You dont know everything, so please do not lie.
2. Everything must be seen in context, and in context with todays society.
3. However, in gladiator we dont know how he is going to react or what is going to happen next (although it is a predictable movie). Yes the events stay the same but re-actions, the lessons, and basically everything are seen, you dont even need to read the new testament to see the obvious lesson. The new testament is totality revolutionises everything, it shows a different understanding, and it presents a new way, the truth, and the light. Read it some time.
4. Genocide is evil eh? That is a highly debatable topic. Would you say the purification of evil is evil?

sorry your responses dont count. i cant put them into context as i havent seen the posts you will make in the future


oh and dont get sidetracked. God used his magic to kill thousands of children in eqypt. thats evil and genocide. maybe your cult likes murdering kids and having sex with your family but most people dont. . .

You just simply dont read my posts. And so what if God killed thousands of children in eqypt, it was purely just, and literally God can do whatever he wants. I do not belong to any cult, or partake of any immoral sexual activity. Especially when the bible clearly states the laws and occurring consequences for such immorality.

Is there such a thing as neutral medical experts? No.
Also, cases of faith healing have been proven.

no they havent silly. the placebo effect is a medical benefit that could come from faith healing. its not a miracle.

and yes, neutral medical experts are real. to clarify/dumb it down i mean neutral in terms of faith healing. they would have no feelings either way and would let the facts do the speaking.

Medical experts, if human, have bias. No human is without bias.

Also, Im well aware of the placebo effect. However, situations that there has been faith healing that the placebo effect could of not occurred.

Everything technically was built on incest. Even the animal kingdom. Even plants.

you are sick and twisted. i feel sorry for any sisters you have.

Dont have sisters... unless you count sisters comrades in arms. However, truth is truth, everyone is related.

And yet you haven't sourced anything from the new testament :O shock. Thus the case, proving all your arguments void. Consisting of no substance. Only existent to prove an absolute truth wrong, which to any man with common sense or logic would find absurd.

sigh its the same as the old in that it doesnt really apply to you. unless you are jewish? for example do you know love thy neighbour means love another Jew?

if you follow the bible you are basically a jew. put that bacon sandwich down boy

Yes, I am part Jew. That is besides the point, you still purposely ignore the new testament.

[Demeisen]

nothing can be shown to a fanatic.

what i have proven, is how corrupting and damaging it can be when people take the bible literally. seeing the bible as completely correct in every sense forces believers to accept lies.

anyone reading your posts will see the effects of religions power to blind someone to reasoned thought.

i have also shown central christian tales are not true. we have proven that science shows the bible is wrong on many things. mainstream christians accept this and adapt with the times, all the time worshipping God while adapting to survive. you will not adapt and your religion will always be an outcast. maybe one day you will learn to change. . .

my points demonstrated, im done.

you fail.

[Mister Sandman]

nothing can be shown to a fanatic. I agree, hence why talking to you is useless..

what i have proven, is how corrupting and damaging it can be when people take the bible literally. seeing the bible as completely correct in every sense forces believers to accept lies.Nope, not at all. No proof at all

anyone reading your posts will see the effects of religions power to blind someone to reasoned thought.Anyone reading your posts will see the effects of ignorance and the unwillingness to change.

i have also shown central christian tales are not true.No evidence we have proven that science shows the bible is wrong on many things. Wrong again, true science shows that the bible is infact right. mainstream christians accept this No they dontand adapt with the timesWhat is "acceptable" by "society" isnt necessary right., all the time worshipping God while adapting to survive. you will not adapt and your religion will always be an outcast.Never was an outcast, never will... maybe one day you will learn to change. . .

my points demonstrated, im done.
You admitting to defeat.

[Elongar]

nothing can be shown to a fanatic. I agree, hence why talking to you is useless..

what i have proven, is how corrupting and damaging it can be when people take the bible literally. seeing the bible as completely correct in every sense forces believers to accept lies.Nope, not at all. No proof at all

anyone reading your posts will see the effects of religions power to blind someone to reasoned thought.Anyone reading your posts will see the effects of ignorance and the unwillingness to change.

i have also shown central christian tales are not true.No evidence we have proven that science shows the bible is wrong on many things. Wrong again, true science shows that the bible is infact right. mainstream christians accept this No they dontand adapt with the timesWhat is "acceptable" by "society" isnt necessary right., all the time worshipping God while adapting to survive. you will not adapt and your religion will always be an outcast.Never was an outcast, never will... maybe one day you will learn to change. . .

my points demonstrated, im done.
You admitting to defeat.

I'm afraid it's not quite so simple as that. The onus is on you to prove that science confirms the tales of the Old Testament, if that is your argument - you can't simply state your position and expect that to be accepted as a valid retort.

Quite frankly, I don't see the point. For a Christian, God has the power to flood the Earth ten times over, remove all evidence of the deed and leave humanity none the wiser. Why he would do such a thing, I don't quite know, but from a purely philosophical point of view, it puts us in a position of doubt as to whether there can exist scientific evidence of certain biblical events (particularly Old Testament). There is no scientific evidence for the existence of God (and intelligent design holds little water, in my opinion - I'm sure better minds than I can convince you of this), so why should there be scientific evidence for the acts of divine intervention that so frequently occur in the Old Testament.

To take an example, the burning bush story is a good one to pick on. There are various scientific explanations for the burning bush. Some focus on the hallucinogenic effects of various Mesopotamian plants that Moses could potentially have been exposed to. There is even evidence that Dictamnus gymnostylis, the plant many consider to have been the burning bush, has certain chemical properties that facilitate spontaneous combustion. That does not invalidate the narrative as told by the Bible. God uses nature as his workforce, and it is entirely plausible to believe that a naturally occurring event such as this plants combustion, was used by God as a means of intervention. But it would be a logical fallacy to assume that science proves the Bible. Science is entirely independent of the Bible, and using science to attempt to prove supernatural occurrences is an exercise in futility. Come back once you have a mathematical proof for Jesus.

That said, it is certainly feasible to attempt to verify the historical provenance of the Bible. The study of Jesus as a historical figure is an extremely interesting exercise, but is completely independent of attempts to prove/disprove Jesus' miracles. Historical records confirming the conversion of water to wine at the marriage at Cana are not a scientific proof of anything. Even if such a thing exists, it merely implies that, historically, there was belief in miracles, that there was a marriage at Cana, and that there was a belief that a miracle had occurred there.

As to mass genocide - yes, I believe such events to be largely symbolic. They are a reflection of the time - a reflection of the morality and the tolerance of violence that is prevalent throughout ancient history. Mister Sandman, you seem to suggest that God consistently used fear as a motivator for belief. I don't see how such a thing is consistent with orthodox Christian belief. Jesus' arrival on Earth was the conduit for the forgiveness of our sins, that much is clear, but I don't for a second belief that before then, all sinners were mercilessly eradicated - eveyone is a sinner, where does God draw the line? Can he draw a line? Would such a line be perfect? I think not...

Lastly, I'd like to address LiQuiD's assertion that traditional Christian tales are false. From a historical and scientific perspective, I agree with you with regards to certain portions of the Bible, but their importance to a Christian does not lie in this but in their theological significance. You cannot use this as an argument against Christian belief (and I hope this is not what you intended). In this sense, I don't really think that science can show that the Bible is "wrong". I still believe the entire content of the Bible to be "true" in the sense that it is perfectly valid as the central piece of scripture from which Christians base their faith. There is nothing contradictory between this and science. If you feel there is, please elaborate.