Abortion

[Mister Sandman]

God is not above law. If you commit murder, you are a murderer.
Eh, Yes he is, God is God. However, God wouldn't break his law. However, he is above it.

Personally, I believe yes, that it is the mother's choice.
A mother, whom does not know what to do, is desperate and has unclear thought. Yah, that gives a good candidate to have the choice over someone who lives or dies.

On another note, I was deeply offended by what Sandman wrote before.

Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.

One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.

69% of female victims reported that the offender was someone they knew.

68% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.

In cases of rape, the fundamental thing that drives rapists is the power over the victim, to have them vulnerable to you. We just had a girl raped on campus just because she was heading back to her dorm after class. Another rape in Montana where a teenager had been raped by her father and carried 4 of his children where only one survived.

Another thing is that in some cases, one's morality is defined by their religion.

1. Statistics means nothing to the individual.
2. These statistics are sicking, must be why they are USA statistics.
3. Ethics are subjective, but common sense, and basic fundamentals of law should be not. One might ask why people do not abide by the law. Answer: People are idiots, self consumed, lustful, sinful creatures.

I do not have care for your stories in any case. Rape, is no excuse to abort a baby other words known as murder. (Remember there is the day after pill, however, people still have a problem with that.) Every life is made for a reason.

[Spyridon]

A mother, whom does not know what to do, is desperate and has unclear thought. Yah, that gives a good candidate to have the choice over someone who lives or dies.

I do agree with you that a mother should always be informed of all treatments as much as possible. But the stance of the AMA states that the doctors have the right to refuse treatment and to tell the patients of all treatments options if those treatments are in conflict with their religious and ethics. So from the moment, the patient steps into office, they are already fighting for treatment. And the state and fed laws are also in accordance with the AMA stance.

1. Statistics means nothing to the individual.
2. These statistics are sicking, must be why they are USA statistics.
3. Ethics are subjective, but common sense, and basic fundamentals of law should be not. One might ask why people do not abide by the law. Answer: People are idiots, self consumed, lustful, sinful creatures.

I do not have care for your stories in any case. Rape, is no excuse to abort a baby other words known as murder. (Remember there is the day after pill, however, people still have a problem with that.) Every life is made for a reason.

1. These statistics prove how much of a myth your claim that women provocate men into raping them is.
2. Just because they are USA statistics doesn't automatically make them sickening. USA statistics is pretty much similar to statistics across the world. The only difference is how many rapes are there. But the comparisons besides that are the same.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:G4xWgNRZU78J:www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%2520Sheet%2520-%2520US%2520vs%2520World.pdf+US+Rape+Statistics+compared+to+other+countries&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

3.Here in the US, every law is subjective to the individual case as there are mitigating and aggravating circumstance which can either lead to higher sentencing or lower sentencing. There is no such thing as common sense which is actually another myth because it's after the fact. If the person never epxerienced before, how can they have the experience of actually knowing how to do it(I actually talked with my professor over common sense)? Unlawful does not equal sinful. And just because you break the law does not mean you're an idiot. Case in point, the BTK killer. Guy was really smart. How smart, I don't know but it was more than the average human. My sister said the police actually called him a genius.

If you don't care for these stories, then it makes me wonder about your conscience. Abortion for me is on an individual basis. So much so that it would be hard to actually define when is it right. There are a lot of factors to consider beside of how you actually got pregnant. About the day after pill, the people that have a problem with that is the doctors who stick to their religious beliefs above the treatment of their patients.

[Thriller]

Abortion is a difficult subject..

A featus and mother share a special and bond that is essentially unlike any other.

I beleive the subject requires a special circumstance of ethical treatment on those grounds.


The fetuses life is entirely codepedent on the mother, and so is the mothers life to the fetus.

Giving birth requires a great deal of energy, stamina and investment of time and resources by the mother. It has a tremendous impact upon her health and is a process that should cary with it alot of respect from others.

The featus is not an autonomous being; meaning that the role of the mother cannot be filled by any other individual on earth after the internal symbiosys has begun. After birth the child could essentially be raised by any adult and grow up healthy(mother can be replaced) but until that time there exists a unique codependent relationship.

Giving this specail circumstance. I beleive the life is solely the responsibility of the mother, no one elses. No one has the right to tell the mother she must give birth to the child. Normal defenitions of murder do not apply because it is not a social contract between autonomous beings that exists. Only a unique symbiotic relationship between a specific mother and specefic featus that goes far beyond the link we share with each other as members of a soceity.

[Mister Sandman]

A mother, whom does not know what to do, is desperate and has unclear thought. Yah, that gives a good candidate to have the choice over someone who lives or dies.

I do agree with you that a mother should always be informed of all treatments as much as possible. But the stance of the AMA states that the doctors have the right to refuse treatment and to tell the patients of all treatments options if those treatments are in conflict with their religious and ethics.Called a second opinion So from the moment, the patient steps into office, they are already fighting for treatment. And the state and fed laws are also in accordance with the AMA stance.

1. Statistics means nothing to the individual.
2. These statistics are sicking, must be why they are USA statistics.
3. Ethics are subjective, but common sense, and basic fundamentals of law should be not. One might ask why people do not abide by the law. Answer: People are idiots, self consumed, lustful, sinful creatures.

I do not have care for your stories in any case. Rape, is no excuse to abort a baby other words known as murder. (Remember there is the day after pill, however, people still have a problem with that.) Every life is made for a reason.

1. These statistics prove how much of a myth your claim that women provocate men into raping them is.


the world average is 0.1 per 1000 people are raped.
Thus meaning, for every 10 000 people, there is 1 rape victim.

Also, your statistics do not prove anything. It only proves that there should be harsher punishments and more preventative action needs to be taken.

2. Just because they are USA statistics doesn't automatically make them sickening. USA statistics is pretty much similar to statistics across the world. Wrong, USA is in the top 10, on a per capita basis.The only difference is how many rapes are there. But the comparisons besides that are the same.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:G4xWgNRZU78J:www.publiceye.org/defendingjustice/pdfs/factsheets/9-Fact%2520Sheet%2520-%2520US%2520vs%2520World.pdf+US+Rape+Statistics+compared+to+other+countries&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

3.Here in the US, every law is subjective to the individual case as there are mitigating and aggravating circumstance which can either lead to higher sentencing or lower sentencing. Translation 54% of rapes are not convicted/get off scot free = Good. Gee that's stupid.
There is no such thing as common sense which is actually another myth because it's after the fact.So there is no human nature, only human behaviour. That statement is WRONG If the person never epxerienced before, how can they have the experience of actually knowing how to do it(I actually talked with my professor over common sense)? Unlawful does not equal sinful.Wrong again. And just because you break the law does not mean you're an idiot. WrongCase in point, the BTK killer. Guy was really smart. How smart, I don't know but it was more than the average human. My sister said the police actually called him a genius.Yes, so, he could of been a genius. But still an idiot.




If you don't care for these stories, then it makes me wonder about your conscience.You have to set aside emotion to see objectively. Abortion for me is on an individual basis. So much so that it would be hard to actually define when is it right. Never.There are a lot of factors to consider beside of how you actually got pregnant. About the day after pill, the people that have a problem with that is the doctors who stick to their religious beliefs above the treatment of their patients.

Not really how many factors to consider for prevention. It is simple.

1. Dont have sex untill you want a child or are married and can support one.
2. USE PROTECTION - the pill and a condom.
3. DONT ENTICE RAPE. - meaning, dont go to seedy taverns hoock up with seedy guys or dont ware enticing clothes, dont be around the 'bad areas' dont get drunk, always ensure safety.
4. Hasher punishments for rape - capital punishment/desexing
5. No abortion - have government institutions like orphanages set up.



[spoiler]

Abortion is a difficult subject..

A featus and mother share a special and bond that is essentially unlike any other.

I beleive the subject requires a special circumstance of ethical treatment on those grounds.


The fetuses life is entirely codepedent on the mother, and so is the mothers life to the fetus.

Giving birth requires a great deal of energy, stamina and investment of time and resources by the mother. It has a tremendous impact upon her health and is a process that should cary with it alot of respect from others.

The featus is not an autonomous being; meaning that the role of the mother cannot be filled by any other individual on earth after the internal symbiosys has begun. After birth the child could essentially be raised by any adult and grow up healthy(mother can be replaced) but until that time there exists a unique codependent relationship.

Giving this specail circumstance. I beleive the life is solely the responsibility of the mother, no one elses. No one has the right to tell the mother she must give birth to the child. Normal defenitions of murder do not apply because it is not a social contract between autonomous beings that exists. Only a unique symbiotic relationship between a specific mother and specefic featus that goes far beyond the link we share with each other as members of a soceity.

[/spoiler]

Murder, whether you kill a featus , adult or child, is still murder.

All your 'codependent relationship' was all well and until you tried to define murder. Can a baby survive without a mother? Can a child survive without someone to care for them? Not likely. 0-5 Is still a 'codependent relationship'. And if you apply your 'views' logically it wouldn't be murder to kill a 2 year old, if a mother thinks so. Which is stupid.

It is easy to draw the line, When conception takes place. It is a living identity, a human.

[Kit-Fox]

[spoiler]

Abortion is a difficult subject..

A featus and mother share a special and bond that is essentially unlike any other.

I beleive the subject requires a special circumstance of ethical treatment on those grounds.


The fetuses life is entirely codepedent on the mother, and so is the mothers life to the fetus.

Giving birth requires a great deal of energy, stamina and investment of time and resources by the mother. It has a tremendous impact upon her health and is a process that should cary with it alot of respect from others.

The featus is not an autonomous being; meaning that the role of the mother cannot be filled by any other individual on earth after the internal symbiosys has begun. After birth the child could essentially be raised by any adult and grow up healthy(mother can be replaced) but until that time there exists a unique codependent relationship.

Giving this specail circumstance. I beleive the life is solely the responsibility of the mother, no one elses. No one has the right to tell the mother she must give birth to the child. Normal defenitions of murder do not apply because it is not a social contract between autonomous beings that exists. Only a unique symbiotic relationship between a specific mother and specefic featus that goes far beyond the link we share with each other as members of a soceity.

[/spoiler]

Murder, whether you kill a featus , adult or child, is still murder.

All your 'codependent relationship' was all well and until you tried to define murder. Can a baby survive without a mother? Can a child survive without someone to care for them? Not likely. 0-5 Is still a 'codependent relationship'. And if you apply your 'views' logically it wouldn't be murder to kill a 2 year old, if a mother thinks so. Which is stupid.

It is easy to draw the line, When conception takes place. It is a living identity, a human.

Thats a stupid argument Sandman & you know it. A 2 year old is not biologically dependant upon its mother for life, it can be provided with the required resources by anyone. A featus is biologically dependant upon the mother & cant be supported by another random person from society.

[Demeisen]

Thats a stupid argument Sandman

i second that.

a 2 year old is capable of living as an individual so killing it it depriving it of its life. a foetus can only be legally aborted if it is not yet capable of independent life. how can you murder something that cant live. . .

[Thriller]

Everyone else understood that i was talking about a biological codependency, Sandman. My great grandmother died giving birth and my grandfather lived to 89.

If you want to read something stupid, check your own posts

[Kit-Fox]

I have a question, why do religous types feel the need to enforce their morality and rules/laws upon those who arent of the same religion or those of no religion??

How about you let others decide what they want to do for themselves eh?

[Mister Sandman]

Thats a stupid argument Sandman & you know it. A 2 year old is not biologically dependant upon its mother for life, it can be provided with the required resources by anyone. A featus is biologically dependant upon the mother & cant be supported by another random person from society.

Just applying Thriller Logic. I am not saying a 2 year old is biological dependant its mother as such, it is overall biologically dependant on someone. It is still a 'codependent relationship'.

a 2 year old is capable of living as an individual so killing it it depriving it of its life. a foetus can only be legally aborted if it is not yet capable of independent life. how can you murder something that cant live. . .

If by capable you mean dying within a week, without someone looking after it, then yes. Then, Logically you can say the same thing about a foetus.
The question or not if a foetus is alive, is idiotic to say the least, it is alive, not just developed yet.

I have a question, why do religous types feel the need to enforce their morality and rules/laws upon those who arent of the same religion or those of no religion??

How about you let others decide what they want to do for themselves eh?

1. You cant have no religion.
2. Civil libertarians dont know anything
3. It isnt morality that is forced. It is pure and utter equality, fairness and justice.
4. People cant decide for themselves because they lack the mental capacity to do so.

[Spyridon]

The American Medical Association is an official stance that is supported by a great majority across the US and if it is a second opinion as you say Sandman, it shouldn't be forced upon their patients.

USA has one of the strictest and harshest punishment laws which in effect raises its crime rate. You said that USA was in the top ten. Look to the sentence after, you'll notice that I said 'the only difference is the number of rapes there are' which leads me to assume you don't read the full posts. The harsher the laws, the higher the crime rate. England has one of the lowest crime rates in the world due to its theory of rehabilitation of criminals with lesser crime. US had a smaller crime rate until the populace decided stricter punishment was needed as a deterrence. Since then, crime rates and prison population has gone through the roof.

I never said that 54% of the rapists get off scott free. I thought I said that most of the crimes actually don't get reported by the victims. Also, in our legal system of the proof of burden falls on the prosecutors. Common sense/experience does not equal human behavior which is formed from many more factors. And as you said yourself, it could be seen as a second opinion.

I did set aside my emotion. It was a statement of inner thought. You say to use protection? There are some who can't afford to buy condoms or pills and if they try to ask from their doctors, they may not receive it. Also as I said before, NO ONE ENTICES ANOTHER TO BE RAPED. Desexing doesn't lead to the rapists having a less urge to rape another. They can still rape the victims. Here in the US, we have a right that states that criminals should be sentenced with no cruel or unusual punishments.

I too got what Thriller was trying to say.

A person can have no religion and still live a successful life. I'm agnostic.

Morality defines one's equality, fairness, and justice. Weren't women stoned to death if they got pregnant outside of marriage back in the old days? Isn't some of the laws we have today were modeled after some religous aspects when the US constitution was written? Though it may not seem like it, religion has had a serious impact on one's laws.

People cant decide for themselves because they lack the mental capacity to do so? I seriously hope you don't mean yourself as well cuz I do hate fighting an unarmed opponent.

[Thriller]

Thats a stupid argument Sandman & you know it. A 2 year old is not biologically dependant upon its mother for life, it can be provided with the required resources by anyone. A featus is biologically dependant upon the mother & cant be supported by another random person from society.

Just applying Thriller Logic. I am not saying a 2 year old is biological dependant its mother as such, it is overall biologically dependant on someone. It is still a 'codependent relationship'.

a 2 year old is capable of living as an individual so killing it it depriving it of its life. a foetus can only be legally aborted if it is not yet capable of independent life. how can you murder something that cant live. . .

If by capable you mean dying within a week, without someone looking after it, then yes. Then, Logically you can say the same thing about a foetus.
The question or not if a foetus is alive, is idiotic to say the least, it is alive, not just developed yet.

I have a question, why do religous types feel the need to enforce their morality and rules/laws upon those who arent of the same religion or those of no religion??

How about you let others decide what they want to do for themselves eh?

1. You cant have no religion.
2. Civil libertarians dont know anything
3. It isnt morality that is forced. It is pure and utter equality, fairness and justice.
4. People cant decide for themselves because they lack the mental capacity to do so.

I was saying after birth the mother could be replaced... You can't understand logic therefore your incapable of applying it.


You really are not that bright, i'll debate you any time on any subject.

[Mister Sandman]

USA has one of the strictest and harshest punishment laws which in effect raises its crime rate. You said that USA was in the top ten. Look to the sentence after, you'll notice that I said 'the only difference is the number of rapes there are' which leads me to assume you don't read the full posts. The harsher the laws, the higher the crime rate. LOL, look at saudi arabia. one of the harshest contries in therms of law... and practically no crime.England has one of the lowest crime rates in the world due to its theory of rehabilitation of criminals with lesser crime. US had a smaller crime rate until the populace decided stricter punishment was needed as a deterrence. Since then, crime rates and prison population has gone through the roof. I was meaning hasher punishments as last resort. Try prevention before a cure.

I never said that 54% of the rapists get off scott free. Statistically they do the ones that get reported 54% do get off scott free. I thought I said that most of the crimes actually don't get reported by the victims. Also, in our legal system of the proof of burden falls on the prosecutors. Common sense/experience does not equal human behavior which is formed from many more factors. And as you said yourself, it could be seen as a second opinion.

I did set aside my emotion. It was a statement of inner thought. You say to use protection? There are some who can't afford to buy condoms or pills and if they try to ask from their doctors, they may not receive it.
Then dont have sex.

Also as I said before, NO ONE ENTICES ANOTHER TO BE RAPED.Oh yes they do. Desexing doesn't lead to the rapists having a less urge to rape another. They can still rape the victims. Here in the US, we have a right that states that criminals should be sentenced with no cruel or unusual punishments.
It isnt a cruel or unusual punishment.
I too got what Thriller was trying to say.

A person can have no religion and still live a successful life. I'm agnostic. That is still a religion.


People cant decide for themselves because they lack the mental capacity to do so? I seriously hope you don't mean yourself as well cuz I do hate fighting an unarmed opponent.
Im not people.

I was saying after birth the mother could be replaced... You can't understand logic therefore your incapable of applying it.

WOW, im saying they still have a dependence, doesnt matter if it isnt the mother. I understood it and chose to use the same logic in a different setting.

The mother can be 'replaced' when birth happens. But it doesnt mean if the mother cant you can murder the child. IT is called adoption, orphanages.

[Thriller]

USA has one of the strictest and harshest punishment laws which in effect raises its crime rate. You said that USA was in the top ten. Look to the sentence after, you'll notice that I said 'the only difference is the number of rapes there are' which leads me to assume you don't read the full posts. The harsher the laws, the higher the crime rate. LOL, look at saudi arabia. one of the harshest contries in therms of law... and practically no crime.England has one of the lowest crime rates in the world due to its theory of rehabilitation of criminals with lesser crime. US had a smaller crime rate until the populace decided stricter punishment was needed as a deterrence. Since then, crime rates and prison population has gone through the roof. I was meaning hasher punishments as last resort. Try prevention before a cure.

I never said that 54% of the rapists get off scott free. Statistically they do the ones that get reported 54% do get off scott free. I thought I said that most of the crimes actually don't get reported by the victims. Also, in our legal system of the proof of burden falls on the prosecutors. Common sense/experience does not equal human behavior which is formed from many more factors. And as you said yourself, it could be seen as a second opinion.

I did set aside my emotion. It was a statement of inner thought. You say to use protection? There are some who can't afford to buy condoms or pills and if they try to ask from their doctors, they may not receive it.
Then dont have sex.

Also as I said before, NO ONE ENTICES ANOTHER TO BE RAPED.Oh yes they do. Desexing doesn't lead to the rapists having a less urge to rape another. They can still rape the victims. Here in the US, we have a right that states that criminals should be sentenced with no cruel or unusual punishments.
It isnt a cruel or unusual punishment.
I too got what Thriller was trying to say.

A person can have no religion and still live a successful life. I'm agnostic. That is still a religion.


People cant decide for themselves because they lack the mental capacity to do so? I seriously hope you don't mean yourself as well cuz I do hate fighting an unarmed opponent.
Im not people.

I was saying after birth the mother could be replaced... You can't understand logic therefore your incapable of applying it.

WOW, im saying they still have a dependence, doesnt matter if it isnt the mother. I understood it and chose to use the same logic in a different setting.

The mother can be 'replaced' when birth happens. But it doesnt mean if the mother cant you can murder the child. IT is called adoption, orphanages.

Those are options...

but basically you have no right to tell a mother she must give birth to her child.

Murder does not apply in this situation and i explained why i thought it didn't.

[Deaths_Rider]

[quote="Mister Sandman

NO ONE ENTICES ANOTHER TO BE RAPED.Oh yes they do. [/quote]


that is by far the stupidest most offensive thing i've heard you say.

what part of a kid being abused by a parent or relative was them enticing it?
That bastard that locked his daughter in the basement for years and started a family with her when did she ask for that.

i suposse all those raped in prison ask for it as well
same with anyone abducted

if it's a good excuse for abortion or not has no impact on people not asking to be raped

it is impossible to always ensure saftey by you saying that it make me think you feel there are no victims of violent crime they all enticed it by being in the "bad areas" as you put it

i only hope you say something like that to an abuse victim so they can bash you half to death then it would be your fault

[Spyridon]

I just let my sister read your posts Sand man and she said you are the worst representative for pro-life.

Anyway, if you go down to the nitty gritty, you can't compare US to any other country as there are different factors.

Harsher punishment doesn't help. You just place all the criminals in one single location where they will actually swap techniques, plans, advice, and other pointers which is why some people say when they leave prison, they've graduated from the higher learning of criminal workings?

Seriously, telling them to not have sex? It may work for a few but it won't work overall. You say Saudi Arabia has the lowest crime rate? How much of that is not reported to authorities?

Yes it is cruel and unusual punishment. Even chemical castration is hardly used as it does nothing to prevent the rapists from raping again.

Agnostic is not a religion.
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>
— ag·nos·ti·cism \-tə-ˌsi-zəm\ noun

Check your definitions first.

What is people made of? Persons. What you wrote was a general statement with no exclusion or inclusion.

You wrote "The mother can be 'replaced' when birth happens. But it doesnt mean if the mother cant you can murder the child. IT is called adoption, orphanages". You just provided a counterargument yourself which neutralizes your previous statement.