i want this in the open.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i was thinking of simply PMing a reply to Angnoch so as not to pollute the other thread but i decided it best i replied in the open.

i think the real cowards are the military themselves for not turning their guns on our even more cowardly politicians and blasting them all over parliament and the US congress...

but thats an argument for another topic if anyone cares to continue that is...

....say that to all the men and women who have fought for your freedom and those of us who have had friends die for your freedom, at least some of us had the courage to sign up in a time of war and serve our country proudly. Think next time you call the US Military cowardly about what your life would be like if you had no military to safeguard your freedoms.

first off, that wasn't just aimed at the American military, and i did say Parliament first.

i never asked for, nor would i ask for someone else to go and fight and possibly die to protect my freedoms. if i felt my freedoms threatened by ANYONE i would do something about it myself, the only people who i feel are threatening my freedoms are in fact our leaders!!!

please explain how fighting in illegal and unjust wars gives someone pride in serving their country, i would feel downright shameful and stupid for giving so much for a bunch of crooks back home who are only interested in themselves

look mate, i'm NOT trying to belittle anyone's service to their country, and in all honesty, it takes allot of conviction and guts to go fight a war on foreign soil, BUT, what's going on in the world today is one gigantic lie and the people who started it are getting richer and fatter while people give their lives...

so, now you tell me who the real enemy is!



i would suggest you click these links to gain a better understanding of what war in the modern day actually means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ey+masters

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1767818729

[Brdavs]

Wth are you appologising? Most people know no guy dropping smart bombs on a bunch of bearded cavepeople in asia is not fighting for their particular "freedoms" and all that hyped up BS. In the past decade I lost a hell of a lot more freedom to the guys allegedly protecting me then to them would be whatevers (and whatnot) that I`m supposed to fear and cheer the troops on against.

Angnoch seems to have gone through one recruiting/p-word pamflet too many, tis all.

[Ridd1ck]

i was thinking of simply PMing a reply to Angnoch so as not to pollute the other thread but i decided it best i replied in the open.

i think the real cowards are the military themselves for not turning their guns on our even more cowardly politicians and blasting them all over parliament and the US congress...

but thats an argument for another topic if anyone cares to continue that is...

....say that to all the men and women who have fought for your freedom and those of us who have had friends die for your freedom, at least some of us had the courage to sign up in a time of war and serve our country proudly. Think next time you call the US Military cowardly about what your life would be like if you had no military to safeguard your freedoms.

first off, that wasn't just aimed at the American military, and i did say Parliament first.

i never asked for, nor would i ask for someone else to go and fight and possibly die to protect my freedoms. if i felt my freedoms threatened by ANYONE i would do something about it myself, the only people who i feel are threatening my freedoms are in fact our leaders!!!

please explain how fighting in illegal and unjust wars gives someone pride in serving their country, i would feel downright shameful and stupid for giving so much for a bunch of crooks back home who are only interested in themselves

look mate, i'm NOT trying to belittle anyone's service to their country, and in all honesty, it takes allot of conviction and guts to go fight a war on foreign soil, BUT, what's going on in the world today is one gigantic lie and the people who started it are getting richer and fatter while people give their lives...

so, now you tell me who the real enemy is!



i would suggest you click these links to gain a better understanding of what war in the modern day actually means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ey+masters

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1767818729

So much for intellingent discussions. You're believing bleeding heart liberals that have never set foot in a islamic dictatorship. I've BEEN there several times. I've SEEN the misory and oppression forced upon the people but the likes of Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and their radical kind. Where women can't go to school, get a job, or even show their face in public. Where a young teenage girl can be raped in the public square and people gather to watch and even join in? Because she's female and thus not anything but a subhuman and someones property?
So don't call this war unjust EVER. All war can be called wrong and unjust, doesn't mean it actually is. You want to end this? Take out ALL the extremists in the world, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or even Budhist. That will solve a lot of the world problems. Yes the govt of both our countries are getting rich and fat off the sweat and blood I and my feloow soldiers have shed. But to see one of those now free women going about the life she was not allowed before in safety, makes it all worth it.

[[KMA]Avenger]

MEH!!! where to even begin with your post????????????????????????

i don't care how many tours you have done "over there", i would first find out WHO it is who financed Saddam [spoiler][/spoiler], Tim Osman (do you even know who Tim osman is??? ), Al-Qaeda and all the other "extremists" in the world, then come and talk to me about what you think you know.

True many of them do so to better themselves, if not all of them, and others join the military for reasons that are just bs, they are in no way a coward one bit for following the orders they were given.

as far as i am aware, soldiers swear an oath to keep their country's safe against ALL enemy's, both foreign and domestic.
with that said, i am a human being and not a robot, if i was a soldier and i receive an order i dont agree with i would use the chain of command, approach my immediate superior commander and voice my concerns,if the chain of command fails and i am left with an order i see as either unjust or downright dishonest, i would have NO hesitation in turning my weapon at my immediate CO and shooting him dead on the spot!

[RepliMagni]

i think the real cowards are the military themselves for not turning their guns on our even more cowardly politicians and blasting them all over parliament and the US congress...

but thats an argument for another topic if anyone cares to continue that is...

You would rather live in a military dictatorship? Or some idealistic commune? Just curious what you think is a viable alternative in modern society?

As for all the other stuff, most wars are fought because of lines on a map, or as in the current Iraq wars, because of resources and Saddam fell out of favour. If there were ever humanitarian wars then I would fully support them - I do believe such a war could exist, for example, if something had of been done about the Sudan and Darfur. Was WWII a humanitarian war? No. Despite Hitler's Final Solution, the war was fought because aggressive expansionism - if Hitler had of killed every Jew in Germany, but not transgressed against the Versaille treaty, I doubt any country would have raised a finger to stop him.

[RepliMagni]

with that said, i am a human being and not a robot, if i was a soldier and i receive an order i dont agree with i would use the chain of command, approach my immediate superior commander and voice my concerns,if the chain of command fails and i am left with an order i see as either unjust or downright dishonest, i would have NO hesitation in turning my weapon at my immediate CO and shooting him dead on the spot!

Easy to say on a computer. If you truly have such strong feelings about corporations, about the government, about unjust wars - why are you not out there doing something about it right now? You don't have to be in the army already to do something about it....take up your arms right now if you feel so strongly about it....

[Brdavs]

So much for intellingent discussions. You're believing bleeding heart liberals that have never set foot in a islamic dictatorship. I've BEEN there several times. I've SEEN the misory and oppression forced upon the people but the likes of Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and their radical kind. Where women can't go to school, get a job, or even show their face in public. Where a young teenage girl can be raped in the public square and people gather to watch and even join in? Because she's female and thus not anything but a subhuman and someones property?
So don't call this war unjust EVER. All war can be called wrong and unjust, doesn't mean it actually is. You want to end this? Take out ALL the extremists in the world, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or even Budhist. That will solve a lot of the world problems. Yes the govt of both our countries are getting rich and fat off the sweat and blood I and my feloow soldiers have shed. But to see one of those now free women going about the life she was not allowed before in safety, makes it all worth it.

You bleeding hypocrite.

Under Sadaams Iraq women had more rights than in any US backed theocracy in the middle east and he was trying to stamp out religious extremism fueld by the US against the USSSR. And this "just war for womens rights and against religious extremism" was started by blair and bush after they apparently parlayed with God in their respective offices. lol.

The whole concept of a "Just War" is infact tainted by one sided phlosophy and, namely, chatolic origin. It`s a pretence. A justification so that you can stay on your high horse. And as evidenced by the last decade it is there to be interpreted any way the guy with the nukes wants.
Wanna know the real kick in the teeth? More often than not, people with far "juster" cause get branded terrorists.

[[KMA]Avenger]

You would rather live in a military dictatorship? Or some idealistic commune? Just curious what you think is a viable alternative in modern society?

as with all my posts i try to mean EXACTLY what i say, in short, if i wanted to live in a dictatorship i would have said as much so no one on these boards would have to guess at what i am trying to say

As for all the other stuff, most wars are fought because of lines on a map, or as in the current Iraq wars, because of resources and Saddam fell out of favour. If there were ever humanitarian wars then I would fully support them - I do believe such a war could exist, for example, if something had of been done about the Sudan and Darfur. Was WWII a humanitarian war? No. Despite Hitler's Final Solution, the war was fought because aggressive expansionism - if Hitler had of killed every Jew in Germany, but not transgressed against the Versaille treaty, I doubt any country would have raised a finger to stop him.

at the end of the day, people are unaware that both WW1 and 2 were both engineered long before they actually happened, and contrary to belief they are not fought for either lines on the map or for peoples freedoms.

with that said, i am a human being and not a robot, if i was a soldier and i receive an order i dont agree with i would use the chain of command, approach my immediate superior commander and voice my concerns,if the chain of command fails and i am left with an order i see as either unjust or downright dishonest, i would have NO hesitation in turning my weapon at my immediate CO and shooting him dead on the spot!

Easy to say on a computer. If you truly have such strong feelings about corporations, about the government, about unjust wars - why are you not out there doing something about it right now? You don't have to be in the army already to do something about it....take up your arms right now if you feel so strongly about it....

i am doing something about it...why do you think i post the subjects i do? before you answer i'll tell you, to raise awareness in people so they can go find out for themselves, because it is very hard for people to come to terms with much of what i say and thus it is ultimately dismissed as fallacy, but if people go look for themselves and discover the truth for themselves then it is easier to assimilate the new knowledge.

edit:

you are correct, it is very easy to post on a forum and sound all big n bad and righteous, but at 41 and gone threw the fire of the past 5 years of my life, i have gained an attitude which leaves no room for bull excrement.

i don't say things lightly. unlike MANY others i am a man of word and if i say it i mean it.

[[KMA]Avenger]

@Lonewolf:

this is what the government thinks of its service men!


Homeland Security Classifies Returning US Veterans as Potential Terrorist Threat
2009 April 14
tags: Homeland Security, Janet Napolitano


This morning I wrote a post about a Homeland Security paper that warned about “right wing extremists” and the threat that they may pose to the government.

This paper basically lumped in people who are either pro second amendment, anti abortion, anti illegal immigration, or pro smaller government (or more than one or all of the above) with white supremacists and domestic terrorists. As maddening as I found that paper there was one aspect to the paper that I missed this morning and to me it is much more egregious.

This is what the Department of Homeland Security thinks about our military men and women who are overseas fighting on our behalf:

the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks

That is unforgivable. To suggest that some of our troops will come home and form or join terrorist groups is beyond reprehensible. And why suddenly is the Department of Homeland Security suddenly using the “T” word again when talking about our troops when they refuse to call the actual terrorists what they are?

The report continues:

Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to right-wing extremists,” it says. “DHS/I&A is concerned that right-wing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize veterans in order to boost their violent capacities

I find it very interesting to see how these people really feel about our veterans.

[RepliMagni]

So you're the Goebbels of anarchism? You get the cushy job of sitting at home radicalising people and then expecting them to take the court martials, the murder trials and death penalties? If you want to change the world, it'll take more than posting on a gaming forum. I mean hell, you're not even convincing with a lot of the stuff - you cite things pulled off personal websites that any looney can write and then treat it as canon, written by "experts".

You sermonise what you'd do in certain situations, insinuating that others are cowards for not doing it, and all the while from your armchair. Do you truly think the government is oppressing us? That all these conspiracy theories are real? That you're a man of your word? Then why are you still posting here? You should be out actually doing something. Words are cheap, especially on a gaming forum.

I have no problem with your theories, just so long as you don't start denouncing others as cowards for not following your ideas, and yet you yourself don't act on your beliefs.

[Ridd1ck]

MEH!!! where to even begin with your post????????????????????????

i don't care how many tours you have done "over there", i would first find out WHO it is who financed Saddam [spoiler][/spoiler], Tim Osman (do you even know who Tim osman is??? ), Al-Qaeda and all the other "extremists" in the world, then come and talk to me about what you think you know.

First off I have direct PROOF France and Russia were behind most of Saddams funding with the oil for food program bring corrupted. I mean for crying out loud, the French were building his Victory Over America Palace that stole the water from local farmers causing them to starve so Saddam could build a huge man made lake around the palace. The local populace were not even aware such a body of water even existed because they were kept at such a distance they couldn't notice it. There is other evidence I am not allowed to discuss. Wish I could, I REALLY do, it would put a lot of nay sayers to rest, including my wife. But I can't until it is officially released and due to the nature of it, I doubt it ever will be. It would put alot of our supposed allies in a very bad light. I know the truth and so do my fellow soldiers. THAT is WHY we follow our orders. Until YOU'VE seen it and experienced it in person you'll believe all the propaganda you have been using for evidence just as my wife does. All that crap is twisted to put forth the medias bias opinions. And most college professors believe Michael Moore is the Messiah or something. He's a fat lying piece of dung and should have been shot for treason. But it's his opinion and opinions are just like **Filtered**. Everyone has one and they all stink.......

[Ridd1ck]

So much for intellingent discussions. You're believing bleeding heart liberals that have never set foot in a islamic dictatorship. I've BEEN there several times. I've SEEN the misory and oppression forced upon the people but the likes of Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, and their radical kind. Where women can't go to school, get a job, or even show their face in public. Where a young teenage girl can be raped in the public square and people gather to watch and even join in? Because she's female and thus not anything but a subhuman and someones property?
So don't call this war unjust EVER. All war can be called wrong and unjust, doesn't mean it actually is. You want to end this? Take out ALL the extremists in the world, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or even Budhist. That will solve a lot of the world problems. Yes the govt of both our countries are getting rich and fat off the sweat and blood I and my feloow soldiers have shed. But to see one of those now free women going about the life she was not allowed before in safety, makes it all worth it.

You bleeding hypocrite.

Under Sadaams Iraq women had more rights than in any US backed theocracy in the middle east and he was trying to stamp out religious extremism fueld by the US against the USSSR. And this "just war for womens rights and against religious extremism" was started by blair and bush after they apparently parlayed with God in their respective offices. lol.

The whole concept of a "Just War" is infact tainted by one sided phlosophy and, namely, chatolic origin. It`s a pretence. A justification so that you can stay on your high horse. And as evidenced by the last decade it is there to be interpreted any way the guy with the nukes wants.
Wanna know the real kick in the teeth? More often than not, people with far "juster" cause get branded terrorists.

Have you EVER BEEN to Iraq? Afghanistan? Any of the "Great Nations" with such a "just" cause? If not, then you are just one the blind left wingers that believe what the media tells you on TV. I've seen it first hand and I KNOW that crap you just spouted is just that, crap. Sadamm used nerve gas on his own citizens and deprived his own people of water, food , and freedom to build his own image and wealth. That is a person that should have been taken out in the first Gulf War but Daddy Bush didn't have the balls to do it for fear of upsetting the rest of the Islamic world. If he would have, it might have ended this war before it started. It might have made things worse. We will never know.
I have talked with Iraqi citizens on a personal basis while on patrol and they love what we've done for their country. They tell us they have more freedoms now than ever before. But do you EVER here about that on the news? HELL NO you won't because that would mean Bush was right and the Democrats are wrong and NO WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!!

[[KMA]Avenger]

So you're the Goebbels of anarchism? You get the cushy job of sitting at home radicalising people and then expecting them to take the court martials, the murder trials and death penalties? If you want to change the world, it'll take more than posting on a gaming forum. I mean hell, you're not even convincing with a lot of the stuff - you cite things pulled off personal websites that any looney can write and then treat it as canon, written by "experts".

You sermonise what you'd do in certain situations, insinuating that others are cowards for not doing it, and all the while from your armchair. Do you truly think the government is oppressing us? That all these conspiracy theories are real? That you're a man of your word? Then why are you still posting here? You should be out actually doing something. Words are cheap, especially on a gaming forum.

I have no problem with your theories, just so long as you don't start denouncing others as cowards for not following your ideas, and yet you yourself don't act on your beliefs.

please don't assume that i sit in an armchair and do nothing. you have no idea what i am doing when not posting on this forum or what i am involved in come this july, i dont need to justify myself or my actions.

sigh, i have a need to warn people of what's coming, and if you lot cant be arsed to go find out then, when the time comes i would like to hear why you took no action...you have all been warned.

do i think Govt is oppressing us...you'd have to be blind to have missed how the bankers through the Govt has oppressed and enslaved the world!

@lonewolf:

MEH! is all i have to say to that lot!!!#



@Replimagni:

as for what i have posted, i took that info from the top result in a general search, but that info is correct which is why i used it...

the job you have now in front of you is to go find out if it has even an ounce of truth in it before you condemn either the info or the source.

[Mordack]

It does not matter is the war is unjust or uncalled for. A soldier is there to follow his commander and chiefs orders. Upon signing their name twice (not once for you damn recruiters) that individual is is for the specified time, a member of the (in this case) the US armed forces.

I agree.

The driving force behind wars, nowadays and indeed throughout history, are the leaders and politicians of the states involved. I don't think the military personnel themselves should be faulted for following orders. The reasoning behind wars is a great deal more complex.

[semper]

It does not matter is the war is unjust or uncalled for. A soldier is there to follow his commander and chiefs orders. Upon signing their name twice (not once for you damn recruiters) that individual is is for the specified time, a member of the (in this case) the US armed forces.

I agree.

The driving force behind wars, nowadays and indeed throughout history, are the leaders and politicians of the states involved. I don't think the military personnel themselves should be faulted for following orders. The reasoning behind wars is a great deal more complex.

Indeed. Soliders are the puppets of politicians and leaders. The average gun monkey is not paid to think, only to do and the officers are paid enough to stay happy and silent.

It's a material world full of second guessing, and as ever lots of cloak and dagger stuff. You want to change the world Avenger.. head for the prime ministers seat (you'll have to fight me for it though.. think you can win? ) Or emigrate to the US and go for president. If they fail.. try china!