Capitalism - Appy vs. GhostyGoo

[GhostyGoo]

I'm not reading this at all for one reason - in your first sentence you claim to be an intellectual. You cannot possibly be an intellectual because you do not understand why capitalism is the fundamental rot of society. You are motivated purely by the material word and so therefore are living in an illusion of only what you have acquired. This is essentially atrophying your natural ability to evolve intellectually and socially. You, as a materialist cannot possibly be a socialist or a humanist, you are not a thinker, you are an acquirer. You do not operate from an armchair, you operate from an ivory tower.

Your point is well made, I have edited the title as such.

Your belief that Capitalism is the rot of society is sad, and pretty naive. But hey, everyones entitled to an opinion, and it seems most of us agree that Capitalism is better then the others.

Lol. So..the whole of western civilisation is slowly going down the tube due to massive economical disaster. Tell me, Appy, when money is worth nothing at all how will you survive? Do you think that money will last forever? Like religion, one day, there will be no logical need for money. The monetary system is failing because it is neither symbiotic nor emergent. It cannot evolve with us, it only serves to impede our evolution. Tell me, where is your money actually? I expect most of it only exists on a computer screen in a bank somewhere, you do realise that money is worth less and less every hour the economy is failing, right? If you are lucky enough to be living in one of the places unaffected by the rapid decline of the "fake" dollar and the fractional reserve banking system then it is only a matter of time until you start to feel the paradigm shift. Admittedly, your riches will last slightly longer if they are not attached to the dollar but you will soon find yourself empty pocketed when those who have something you need have no wish to be paid with your pieces of paper. Promisory notes are a thing of the past Aps, when i give something i give it freely and from the heart - the only reward i require is the sense of humanity you feel when you provide a soul with wealth. In a monetary system, a capitalist system you can only ever be sure of one thing - loss.
It is like an eternal game of musical chairs. When business closes for the day ie the music stops, one person cannot afford to sit down and is liquidated and their assets are shared between the rest. One man is left with nothing, another chair is removed and tomorrow the music/trading begins again. Money travels around in the same circles but without bankrupcy and liquidation you could never make any more of it. I hope that you see this, one day, and hopefully before you find yourself without a chair.
A profit based society cannot possibly be an ethical one. Well-being and humanity is never profitable.
To make another allegorical example, this is why the jedi are taught to discard material attachments to the universe. They lead to fear. The only thing material attachments can ever garauntee is the fear of losing them. If you live in fear your blood remains in the muscles and you cannot grow; in order for growth to occur in the human body the blood must be located in the viscera. Only someone who is relaxed can evolve, if you fear loss all the time you cannot possibly evolve, simple, logical, irrefutable.

Alex, if you had any idea who you were addressing you would certainly know i am no ones "filtered". Thank you.

Appy, i think you are, at the very least, misusing the word naive.

[Alex]

I'm not reading this at all for one reason - in your first sentence you claim to be an intellectual. You cannot possibly be an intellectual because you do not understand why capitalism is the fundamental rot of society. You are motivated purely by the material word and so therefore are living in an illusion of only what you have acquired. This is essentially atrophying your natural ability to evolve intellectually and socially. You, as a materialist cannot possibly be a socialist or a humanist, you are not a thinker, you are an acquirer. You do not operate from an armchair, you operate from an ivory tower.

Your point is well made, I have edited the title as such.

Your belief that Capitalism is the rot of society is sad, and pretty naive. But hey, everyones entitled to an opinion, and it seems most of us agree that Capitalism is better then the others.

Lol. So..the whole of western civilisation is slowly going down the tube due to massive economical disaster. Tell me, Appy, when money is worth nothing at all how will you survive? Do you think that money will last forever? Like religion, one day, there will be no logical need for money. The monetary system is failing because it is neither symbiotic nor emergent. It cannot evolve with us, it only serves to impede our evolution. Tell me, where is your money actually? I expect most of it only exists on a computer screen in a bank somewhere, you do realise that money is worth less and less every hour the economy is failing, right? If you are lucky enough to be living in one of the places unaffected by the rapid decline of the "fake" dollar and the fractional reserve banking system then it is only a matter of time until you start to feel the paradigm shift. Admittedly, your riches will last slightly longer if they are not attached to the dollar but you will soon find yourself empty pocketed when those who have something you need have no wish to be paid with your pieces of paper. Promisory notes are a thing of the past Aps, when i give something i give it freely and from the heart - the only reward i require is the sense of humanity you feel when you provide a soul with wealth. In a monetary system, a capitalist system you can only ever be sure of one thing - loss.
It is like an eternal game of musical chairs. When business closes for the day ie the music stops, one person cannot afford to sit down and is liquidated and their assets are shared between the rest. One man is left with nothing, another chair is removed and tomorrow the music/trading begins again. Money travels around in the same circles but without bankrupcy and liquidation you could never make any more of it. I hope that you see this, one day, and hopefully before you find yourself without a chair.
A profit based society cannot possibly be an ethical one. Well-being and humanity is never profitable.
To make another allegorical example, this is why the jedi are taught to discard material attachments to the universe. They lead to fear. The only thing material attachments can ever garauntee is the fear of losing them. If you live in fear your blood remains in the muscles and you cannot grow; in order for growth to occur in the human body the blood must be located in the viscera. Only someone who is relaxed can evolve, if you fear loss all the time you cannot possibly evolve, simple, logical, irrefutable.

Alex, if you had any idea who you were addressing you would certainly know i am no ones "filtered". Thank you.

Appy, i think you are, at the very least, misusing the word naive.

I know who you are, I however don't know who you think you are. My previous statement still stands.

[CRASSUS]

I'm not reading this at all for one reason - in your first sentence you claim to be an intellectual. You cannot possibly be an intellectual because you do not understand why capitalism is the fundamental rot of society. You are motivated purely by the material word and so therefore are living in an illusion of only what you have acquired. This is essentially atrophying your natural ability to evolve intellectually and socially. You, as a materialist cannot possibly be a socialist or a humanist, you are not a thinker, you are an acquirer. You do not operate from an armchair, you operate from an ivory tower.

Your point is well made, I have edited the title as such.

Your belief that Capitalism is the rot of society is sad, and pretty naive. But hey, everyones entitled to an opinion, and it seems most of us agree that Capitalism is better then the others.

Lol. So..the whole of western civilisation is slowly going down the tube due to massive economical disaster. Tell me, Appy, when money is worth nothing at all how will you survive? Do you think that money will last forever? Like religion, one day, there will be no logical need for money. The monetary system is failing because it is neither symbiotic nor emergent. It cannot evolve with us, it only serves to impede our evolution. Tell me, where is your money actually? I expect most of it only exists on a computer screen in a bank somewhere, you do realise that money is worth less and less every hour the economy is failing, right? If you are lucky enough to be living in one of the places unaffected by the rapid decline of the "fake" dollar and the fractional reserve banking system then it is only a matter of time until you start to feel the paradigm shift. Admittedly, your riches will last slightly longer if they are not attached to the dollar but you will soon find yourself empty pocketed when those who have something you need have no wish to be paid with your pieces of paper. Promisory notes are a thing of the past Aps, when i give something i give it freely and from the heart - the only reward i require is the sense of humanity you feel when you provide a soul with wealth. In a monetary system, a capitalist system you can only ever be sure of one thing - loss.
It is like an eternal game of musical chairs. When business closes for the day ie the music stops, one person cannot afford to sit down and is liquidated and their assets are shared between the rest. One man is left with nothing, another chair is removed and tomorrow the music/trading begins again. Money travels around in the same circles but without bankrupcy and liquidation you could never make any more of it. I hope that you see this, one day, and hopefully before you find yourself without a chair.
A profit based society cannot possibly be an ethical one. Well-being and humanity is never profitable.
To make another allegorical example, this is why the jedi are taught to discard material attachments to the universe. They lead to fear. The only thing material attachments can ever garauntee is the fear of losing them. If you live in fear your blood remains in the muscles and you cannot grow; in order for growth to occur in the human body the blood must be located in the viscera. Only someone who is relaxed can evolve, if you fear loss all the time you cannot possibly evolve, simple, logical, irrefutable.

Alex, if you had any idea who you were addressing you would certainly know i am no ones "filtered". Thank you.

Appy, i think you are, at the very least, misusing the word naive.

No offense Goo, but what honestly can you give that you actually own? can you give me a sandwich when i am hungry? of course not, because the wheat that the bread was made with was harvested by a farmer, the meat and cheese was made by a butcher and a farmer. Those people work hard and dedicate time and effort into building that, they deserve financial reciprocation for their work.

You really think this economic crisis is that bad? it's not, you're overreacting as so many people are when presented with something they do not understand. Your theory of the future is cute, but never going to happen. As I said people arent willing to contribute that much, and i'm talking hundreds of hours of hard work, just for the pleasant feeling in the mind. Naive is the right word, just because the theory of greed and free market scares you does not mean it somehow is the end of the human race.

[GhostyGoo]

You really really need to understand the fractional reserve banking system Appy. It is you who are naive young Sir. My "cute vision of the future" as you put it is already occuring. There is not enough paper money in the system to cover the debt owed by society therefore the fractional reserve is growing exponentially to cover this debt. Every economist who understands the fractional reserve knows that eventually (very soon in fact) the system must undergo a phenominal cataclysm. You, as a capitalist, MUST understand that you can't simply keep printing more money to increase the debt? Surely you understand this, it's a fundament of capitalism! So, if no new money is being printed you are getting less and less each year for your sandwich despite the sandwich being essentially the same - this is how social unrest is caused by capitalism - you are worth less and less each year despite seemingly making more money and aqcuisition! How would i pay for my sandwich? I would do the same as i do now, i would fix your computer. So, you don't have a computer you need fixing? I might just as easily prefer someone else's sandwich Furthermore, i might actually have a farm and it would be you coming to me for your bread. What would you have to offer, Appy?

Alex, have you anything intellectually stimulating to add to our discussion or are you simply here to make the place look untidy?

[CRASSUS]

You really really need to understand the fractional reserve banking system Appy. It is you who are naive young Sir. My "cute vision of the future" as you put it is already occuring. There is not enough paper money in the system to cover the debt owed by society therefore the fractional reserve is growing exponentially to cover this debt. Every economist who understands the fractional reserve knows that eventually (very soon in fact) the system must undergo a phenominal cataclysm. You, as a capitalist, MUST understand that you can't simply keep printing more money to increase the debt? Surely you understand this, it's a fundament of capitalism! So, if no new money is being printed you are getting less and less each year for your sandwich despite the sandwich being essentially the same - this is how social unrest is caused by capitalism - you are worth less and less each year despite seemingly making more money and aqcuisition! How would i pay for my sandwich? I would do the same as i do now, i would fix your computer. So, you don't have a computer you need fixing? I might just as easily prefer someone else's sandwich Furthermore, i might actually have a farm and it would be you coming to me for your bread. What would you have to offer, Appy?
?

You can keep printing more money, you just make the currency less valuable, it's called inflation. There is not enough paper money because money in a physical sense is barely a fraction of the world economy, there is less then 200 billion US dollars in actual circulation despite us pulling off a GDP of around 13 trillion.

Me? my family owns a farm as well, i could easily make bread, and cheese, and indeed I just had a pork dinner of pigs I raised. However if you asked me to spend each and every day working to harvest the wheat, and then give you the bread I had made out of common human decency, well you have another thing coming, you've done nothing to deserve that reward. As for you fixing my computer, how many computers do you think will be manufactured when there is no more money?

How many men will go into coal mines every day to mine up some coal and provide energy and electricity, for the good of mankind? How many fisherman will go and provide food for nothing but the feeling of a satisfied mind? Not very many, because Humans are just like any other species, we hold ourselves more important then the group. Thats why Rams don't fight off Lions, thats why Lions eat babies.

[GhostyGoo]

You raise points which are only valid in our current paradigm Appy. They are very good points and clearly cited with both knowledge and passion however i'm afraid you are wrong. You cannot exist without a symbiotic relationship with your environment and you cannot possibly provide yourself with everything you need through your own expertise, a man cannot be a master of all trades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_al ... er_of_none
You would work your farm and provide the fruits of your labour partially through common decency, yes but since you are less decently motivated than I through your own admission you are not a decent person and so quite rightly you would require some other impetous - you would require clean drinking water for instance, do you know how to tap a well? If you can cite primitive arguments such as the mining of coal which is illogical for a start, then so can i. Your thoughts and ideals, however well cited are essentially primitive. Your biggest fall in all you have said is the admission that you are not a decent person - you do not subscribe to common decency and so, without meaning to upset you, by your own admission you do not deserve to live and thrive in a decent society. You deserve to reap what you sow, indecency.
Inflation, yes, the reason that a man with no riches will one day be equal in value to one with all the riches - riches are comparative fundamentally, without loss you can never have profit and therefore value - when all the riches are owned by the minority they will be worth, essentially, nothing - this is the true nature of inflation.

[Taure]

you are not a thinker, you are an acquirer

Why are these two things mutually exclusive? Is a person allowed only one belief or type of activity, even if there are others which are compatible with it?

IMO: Communism as set out by Marx is clearly a utopia (though perhaps not the only possible utopia). Anyone who says otherwise probably doesn't understand his idea of Communism.

Communism, for Marx, meant that you have all your needs provided for you and then spent your life doing whatever it is you wanted to do.

"I can hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, criticise in the evening, as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, or critic."

The only problem (and it's a big one) with this is that it is impossible until we have much more advanced technology.

For a start we'd need highly advanced AI and robotics to "run" society, e.g. the production of those things that we need, while we're going around doing whatever we like.

The position is also a slightly contradictory. For Marx, communism was all about bringing the powers of production under our own control again (as opposed to Adam Smith's invisible hand). However, it's clear from the above that we have in fact not got control of production, which is all being done for us.

For us to have control of production there would have to be people deciding what is to be produced i.e. there would have to be an administration, which is labour, which means you have people working again, which they don't do in a communistic society (they produce, but only as it pleases a person to produce).

[GhostyGoo]

I like Marxist Communism too, with a little socialism for good measure however I don't think either is quite adequate, currently. My idea hasn't got a name yet and i'm not quite yet equipped to begin laying out my plans for utopian soceity lol. If you are interested in my personal belief you should have a look at The Venus Project. Lastly, i wasn't really saying you cannot be a thinker if you are an acquiaitionally motivated person - this would be silly; how can one acquire without intention to aqcuire? Accumulation, however wemight like it to, happens rarely without thought! What i should have said, in order to relieve myself of having that pointed out to me, is-
If you are thinking to support an acquisition based society you cannot possibly be thinking ethically. I think that statement is bulletproof?

[CRASSUS]

You raise points which are only valid in our current paradigm Appy. They are very good points and clearly cited with both knowledge and passion however i'm afraid you are wrong. You cannot exist without a symbiotic relationship with your environment and you cannot possibly provide yourself with everything you need through your own expertise, a man cannot be a master of all trades.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of_al ... er_of_none
You would work your farm and provide the fruits of your labour partially through common decency, yes but since you are less decently motivated than I through your own admission you are not a decent person and so quite rightly you would require some other impetous - you would require clean drinking water for instance, do you know how to tap a well? If you can cite primitive arguments such as the mining of coal which is illogical for a start, then so can i. Your thoughts and ideals, however well cited are essentially primitive. Your biggest fall in all you have said is the admission that you are not a decent person - you do not subscribe to common decency and so, without meaning to upset you, by your own admission you do not deserve to live and thrive in a decent society. You deserve to reap what you sow, indecency.
Inflation, yes, the reason that a man with no riches will one day be equal in value to one with all the riches - riches are comparative fundamentally, without loss you can never have profit and therefore value - when all the riches are owned by the minority they will be worth, essentially, nothing - this is the true nature of inflation.

I don't agree that wanting to have rewards for your work, in a more physical sense of the word is somehow indecent. I mean I suppose it could be looked as spending 25,000$ dollars on a Patek Philippe wristwatch that could have gone to say, starving orphans, but then again you are supporting that watchmaker and his family as well.

But for fun, lets run off this simulation. I create food, and i donate it to society for the good will of man and for help in places I need help in such as water or electricity. That is essentially mankind many thousands of years ago, albeit more simple specialities. Eventually the water dealer would have to go to me for wheat, then the baker to get the equivalent in bread, to trade to the fisherman for a large salmon to trade to the electricity salesman for power for the big game. Yes a bit of a simple thing but bear with me. In my ingeniousness I submit a note to the fisherman, it says 'this note promises to give 10 bushels of wheat to whoever comes to collect it.' and so the Water Dealer can go quickly to the Electricity Salesman and trade his note for power to watch the big game. That electricity dealer can then go to the baker and take 1 loaf of bread home and a new note that promises 9 more to whoever will deal it.

Simple yes, this could be done electronically where someone would have a whole account on a cell phone, but slowly and surely Goo your system would fall into capitalism once again.

[GhostyGoo]

and then give you the bread I had made out of common human decency, well you have another thing coming, you've done nothing to deserve that reward.

Sorry mate, i'm about to go to bed but just so you don't feel insulted by what i said, it was you who admitted that you are neither common nor decent!

[CRASSUS]

and then give you the bread I had made out of common human decency, well you have another thing coming, you've done nothing to deserve that reward.

Sorry mate, i'm about to go to bed but just so you don't feel insulted by what i said, it was you who admitted that you are neither common nor decent!

Theres nothing uncommon or indecent for not wanting to give someone something you've worked extremely hard for, just for some childish concept of 'human decency'.

[[KMA]Avenger]

Appy, since when is "decency" a childish concept?

if there was a bit more critical thinking and decency in the world, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in...

but methinks what i've just said will fall on deaf ears!

[CRASSUS]

Decency defined as expectation of mindlessly giving away all hard work for some grandiose cause, when just being a consumer is doing that but in a far more appreciable way, in not only helping yourself but everyone else as well.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i hate the word "consumer", i prefer the term, blessed living soul...


i never said you should just give things, your time or labour away, and yes, you should be paid for your time, labour and production, but since everyone here thinks we live in an economy which is driven by the worlds masses, its impossible for anyone here to understand just who is in control of the worlds economy and thus our money and property.
capitalism is another term for fascism when you see just how they have destroyed the middle class and robbed the rest of us of our wealth and labour. deflation, inflation and devaluation are a joke, nobody here seems to understand or wants to understand that these are just tools for robbing the masses. wealth is NEVER destroyed (how can wealth be destroyed? ), wealth is merely transferred using the above tools...

i'll let a better man than me sum it all up:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

President Thomas Jefferson, letter to Treasury Secretary Albert Gallatin (1802)

is that not EXACTLY what has happened in not only America but the rest of the world as well?


truer words were never spoken.

[CRASSUS]

Inflation makes total sense.

Lets say that there is a zombie apocalypse and the world now lives in one small community, the Baker sells his bread for the equivalent in livestock or land. However the wheat field burns down and suddenly there is no wheat, and so the baker must go without bread for a time. Clearly the bread is now more valuable in terms of livestock because the bread is more limited and the livestock has stayed the same.

It's infinitely more complex now, but thats pretty much the theory.

How can wealth be destroyed? If you buy 100,000 cattle with gold and they are all killed, clearly you've lost your wealth.