Ombudsmen Power Reduction Yes/No - Issues

[Lore]

I am all for discussion on the selection, my 2 cents was always that it was a forum users position and we should kinna stay out of it as forum staff since they are the voice of the people, if we pick, or influence who is picked, then doesnt that defeat the pourpose?

[Empy]

Personally I don't think the Forum Staff (Mods, Admins) should have any input in who gets to be Ombudsman. As Mordack said, it is basically letting the defendant pick the jury. One of the possible jobs of the Ombudsman would be to investigate Mods, would it be good if the Mods that might be bad and need investigating had a choice in the Ombudsman?

The spot is for the Users, there to represent and work for them, and so should be solely chosen by them. Although of course the voting system isn't perfect but nothing is, a good idea to reform it could be sorely needed, if there are any to be had.

[Jack]

The defendant does get to pick part of the jury.


But uh, you guys cry about the Ombudsman being reduced to a middle man, yet through your insistence of crap like comparing them to a jury or judge or prosecutor all you are doing is surpressing them to that role.




I disagree with Mordack and the above dude. Their arguments seem to revolve around the ideology that the Ombudsman is there for the sole purpose to investigate complaints about the mods. But that's simply untrue, the Ombudsman serves to facilitate communication between staff and users. As such, mods will be forced to work with the Ombudsman far more than any other user and as such I think that the mods should be allowed to vote as well.


We should go back to the old way of doing things. The users nominate someone, people will only need one nomination, you can nominate your self. The admins, with the opinions of the mods & users, then vettes the nominees, the remaining nominees are then put up for vote, everyone gets to participate if they so choose. This is how it was done when Bill was elected, and I'm fairly sure most of us can agree that he was the best Ombudsman.

[Clarkey]

If only we all got along together.

[Juliette]

If only we all got along together.

Hugtiem!!!
*hugs universe*
The big one. Not me.

[Lore]

Mods are forum users too, and as such have just as much right as any forum user to vote for the Oms, I'm just not to keen on the Oms being picked by the administrative staff alone.

I personally saw little wrong with the last election. Yes there were some issues, and we can learn from them on the next go around, but overall I think they were the best elections in my time here, Other then the fact you cant stop mindless voting.

[Wepwaet]

With so many mods commenting, who is actually playing "shepherd" to keep the discussion moving forward? I see nearly the same comments and questions repeated, albeit with different wording, but no forward progress...

I've looked for Forum's latest clarification of the role but am unable to find it. Can it be posted here so everyone can start from the same base line whether they are a mod or regular user.




Thanks,
Wep

[Juliette]

Good call, Wep.

I would like to volunteer there, I'll talk to a few people.



In the meantime.. this thread has no specific topic.
According to some, the position of Ombudsmen has changed.
According to others, it never did.
Are we trying to find out whether it did or didn't?

[Jack]

I've stated it countless times, Wepwaet.


The roll of the Ombudsman is specifically to facilitate communication between users and staff. Their mandate is to represent the community as a whole in internal mod affairs, where other normal users are unable to represent themself. They are responsible for ensuring that users with real issues, whether it be a complaint or a suggestion, are properly heard out by the admin team. For example...

Ba'al Zebub: Hey, let's add a cooking section!
Jock: That's a stupid idea, Ba'al Zebub.
Admin: Yeah, toopid!
Oms: Hey we should atleast hear out his idea before condemning it to the abyss.
Jock: Sorry, but I don't have time for this lame-o and his lame ideas.
Admin: We haven't got the time either, say Omsguy, how about you listen to his idea and if it's any good you should then present us with his case.
Oms: Alright, Bill tell me your idea and I'll put a case together and then lobby the admins for you.
Ba'al Zebub: [insert arguments for cooking section]
Oms: OMG! That is awesome! [argues before the mods and admanz]
Admin: Ya know, we think you're right! It would be a good idea, let's do it!


I could be forgetting something, but that's about it. Never did the Ombudsman have the power to make unilateral decisions in terms of what warnings get overturned.

[Jack]

Good call, Wep.

I would like to volunteer there, I'll talk to a few people.



In the meantime.. this thread has no specific topic.
According to some, the position of Ombudsmen has changed.
According to others, it never did.
Are we trying to find out whether it did or didn't?

Yes the

Ombudsman position did change, no it did not change in the way that others would have you to believe.


Under Mystake, the Ombudsman was pro-active in helping the mods improve the forum.

Under me, the Ombudsman was pro-active in helping the mods improve the forum, but more and more the role was used by the users to make complaints about the mods.

Under Bill, the Ombudsman role significantly changed to be more of an investigator general. This is equally to be blamed on mods, admin, Bill and the users.

Under Manetheren, Ombudsman ceased acting as a vox populi and exclusively became an investigator general. Manetheren began refusing to represent people whom merely wanted to make suggestions and only representing those that had a complaint.


As far as what the Ombudsmen were allowed to do.. That actually increased over time. When the role was created, the Ombudsman only had a two month term. I was given a tenure(an unlimited term) then following my promotion to supermod. Bill was kinda given a tenure. During his term the Ombudsman was given the ability to argue for pardons for permanently banned users and much weight was given to the Ombudsman's opinion in these pardons. That alone is significantly more powerful. And because of mine and Bill's success as Ombudsman, it was decided to give the Ombudsman a 6 month term. That too can be considered more power. So anything that "can't be done" now but could when the Ombudsman was created, can't be done not because they are not allowed but because they merely refuse to do so.

[Wepwaet]

Ok, I assuming thats a direct quote Jack? Not saying it isn't just making sure because I would have been looking for the quote box and have thought that was a personal interpretation. If I might also suggest starting with any differences between that statement and the Position description the admins put out in Feb of 09? Lastly I'd suggest starting a thread on the election to the position but only open it up AFTER this thread has wound down to some semblence of agreement. Who knows, maybe the people advocating the removal of the position will have swayed everyone else and make an election process thread moot.

Link to that description:
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=138030

Spoilered quote for those who don't want to follow the link
[spoiler]Position Descriptions

The Ombudsman

Purpose
The Ombudsman has a extremly important role. Chosen by the Forum Community to represent their best interest, the Ombudsman is required to provide unbiased opinion and fair judgments
on matters of conflict between Forum Users and the Moderators.

Authority
The Ombudsman, supported by Forum Admins, is granted the powers to fully investigate any relevant issues in a complaint.

Requirements
The Ombudsman needs to demonstrate patience when dealing with complainants and requires excellent communication and conflict resolution skills.

Respect
The Ombudsman is a leader within these forums and is therefore expected to communicate and relate with other staff and players in a respectful manner at all times. This extends to posts and messages on this forum and within the game concerning forum matters.

Seniority
The Ombudsman is the senior member within the Ombudsman staff.

Understudy

Purpose
The position of Ombudsman Understudy was created to provide an increased level of timely complaints resolutution for the Community.

Authority
The Understudy acts as the Ombudsman when he or she is unable to fulfill their duties for planned periods of 3 days or more, due to real issues such exams, illness, military service, vacations or work commitments.

Requirements
The Understudy needs to demonstrate patience when dealing with complainants and requires excellent communication and conflict resolution skills.

Respect
Ombudsman staff are leaders within these forums and are therefore expected to communicate and relate with other staff and players in a respectful manner at all times. This extends to posts and messages on this forum and within the game concerning forum matters.

----------------------------------

Logistics and Communication

Continuum of Decision Making
To ensure consistency in decision making, the Understudy will not overturn any decisions that the Ombudsman has made unless compelling new evidence becomes available and the complaint requires immediate attention.

Support
As required and on request by the Ombudsman, the Understudy will also provide advice about complaints and resolution management.

Rotation Times
The Understudy will undertake the full duties of the Ombudsman for
at least 5 days per month or 60 days per year.

---------------------------------------------

Recruitment and Tenure

Availability
Ombudsman staff need to ensure that complaints are managed in a timely manner. They also need to stay in tune with the politics and nuisances of the game. If a staff member is not available to carry out their duties for a set period of time, they are to notify the forum administrators and specify when they expect to be able to resume their duties.
Absences of over 30 days must be approved or risk automatic removal.

Rosters
The Ombudsman staff must arrange a handover between each other when they change roster. They must also notify who is the current on duty Ombudsman.

Recruiting Process
To provide open disclosure in regards to the Recruitment Process, the Forum Administrators will call for nominations for the role of Ombudsman and Understudy every 6 months within the main forum and a vote will be conducted with the Community to elect the Ombudsman and Understudy.

Performance Reviews
Confidential Performance Reviews for ombudsman staff will be conducted quarterly by the Forum Administrators in acordance with these job descriptions.

A timely review of will also be conducted if Administrators receive more than 3 serious complaints about a member of the ombudsman staff within a 30 day period.

Buck, Lore and Robe
Issued 25 Feb 08[/spoiler]

[Mordack]

The defendant does get to pick part of the jury.


But uh, you guys cry about the Ombudsman being reduced to a middle man, yet through your insistence of crap like comparing them to a jury or judge or prosecutor all you are doing is surpressing them to that role.




I disagree with Mordack and the above dude. Their arguments seem to revolve around the ideology that the Ombudsman is there for the sole purpose to investigate complaints about the mods. But that's simply untrue, the Ombudsman serves to facilitate communication between staff and users. As such, mods will be forced to work with the Ombudsman far more than any other user and as such I think that the mods should be allowed to vote as well.

Investigating complaints isn't the only role of the ombudsman, no, but it's nonetheless a large part of his role. The mods should have a vote, yes, as indeed should everybody.. but I still think that giving control of the position to the admin alone would create a negative precedent and undermine the validity of the position in many people's eyes.

[Jack]

Ok, I assuming thats a direct quote Jack? Not saying it isn't just making sure because I would have been looking for the quote box and have thought that was a personal interpretation.

There is no post with that information, nor was it a personal interpretation. That was the edict when Mystake, Pianomutt and I were Ombudsmen.

If I might also suggest starting with any differences between that statement and the Position description the admins put out in Feb of 09?

For the most part that overly long winded statement by the admins is wrong because it assumes the Ombudsman has one responsibility and one responsibility alone. This is largely do to the confusion created by Pianomutt during his term.

Someone else stated the Ombudsmen all had a different approach to the Ombudsman office, this is true. Mystake's approach was to work closely with the mods and admins. Eros' approach was to kill anything that looked like a mod and moved. My approach was more of a balance between working with the mods and users. Pianomutt's approach evolved while he was Ombudsman, at first it was a balanced approach similar to mine, but after a while it started to heavily lean towards being more of an investigator general rather than a vox populi, you can see this with the changes he made to the Ombudsman's role and mods/admins can see it in the suggestions that were made in the mod section.


Anyway, I am currently writing a review of the Ombudsman history, it's not a fully detailed history, but an overview and it's far from done.

[Jack]

Investigating complaints isn't the only role of the ombudsman, no, but it's nonetheless a large part of his role. The mods should have a vote, yes, as indeed should everybody.. but I still think that giving control of the position to the admin alone would create a negative precedent and undermine the validity of the position in many people's eyes.

No one has suggested has suggested that, Mordack. But for the record it happened twice and in my personal opinion both Ombudsmen were two of the best. But to be honest there's only been five.

[Buddha]

There are 3 admins to stop the "monarchy" system. To stop 1 man having "All the Keys". But yet now people think that the Oms alone (as it is a 1 man job, and his decision to have a helper or not) should have the power to hold all the keys? to be a single Monarch?

I only see one issue with this:

Mordack = FUALL proven when he was GM that he allowed mods and other GM to overrule him in his own area and do as they pleased hmm.

Lore = FUALL shown since you became Admin that you are no long unbiased i loved you as a GM you was a good GM you did a damn well job heck you did everything as I think a mod should no hesitation no questining weather or not your desition was right as it was done by the book against everyone equal now you seem to only think on what people near you say instead of being like that sad but meh.

Robe = TTF proven when a mod a good mod, as a Admin done a few mistakes as well but all in all done ok not done the best not done the worse but still could be better.

I will always speak out against the fact that to many on the team and now in the admin has shown they cant stay under the 10% biased limits and therefore works in to many cases on what ingame poletics or friends say instead of what the rules says and the way it always has been to make this a good place there are those who can but i mean honestly. Is it not about time there comes a rule that allows people who can help making sure the team from admin to mods are sticking with in the 10% as it can be kept there and actually it could be kept at 0, I hoped the omygod man could get that position never happen beside that the omygod job has failed in many cases because it rest on the admins to vote.

If you look at it, it just take 2 admins to have a biased day to vote wrongfully even if it means the warning or issue stays even if it breakes the rules and the ombudsmand spoke against it or in a case where a mod deserves to be kicked for really bad rules broken it has been seen before and will again. That said. Good luck Mordack you deserve it lol.