Reform proposals

[Juliette]

A veritable fruit basket, Goo.

In any case, you will agree that Breughel's rendition of the 'Tower of Babel' is a Renaissance construct based on an inaccurate perception of 'a tower to reach Heaven'. You will agree, I hope, that a ziggurat does not look like a round tower with arches.
The main architectural similarities between Breughel's Tower of Babel and Strassbourg's EU building is *not* that which is similar to the ziggurat construct. So unless your next argument is that Breughel received a divine vision of Babel's incredibly non-conformist 'Tower' (i.e. if it *was* a round tower with arches as Breughel drew).. the first example of symbolism you give is nonsense.


Reversing an Act of God? You place too much faith in the power of man.

How's that for non-anachronistic symbology?

Irony, thy name be Goo.

[GhostyGoo]

At least you are playing by the rules Universe! *salivates*

My point is this-
When whoever gave the "go-ahead" to build the European Parliament building chose (from probably several choices put forward), they decided to symbolise the tower of babel. Now, to present both sides of a healthy debate, on the one hand we could say that the general consensus was that they were bringing together the peoples of the world under one governance and the single most best representation (symbol) of that idea was The Tower of Babel and so they decided to go with Breughel's rendition, afterall..if i can accept quite rightly that it was an inaccurate representation of a Ziggurat, you should rightly accept also that you are glazing over the core fact - both towers represent single governance. My allegory (as much of the bible is) stands true then, does it not? That the European Union building was so constructed to invoke, at the very least, the concept?

On the other hand, it could be equally postulated that they decided to build the European Parliament building with huge similarities to Breughel's representation of the Tower of Babel because, despite scriptures being quite definitive on the point that it was deemed unholy in the eyes of God for the human race to be confined under one system of governance and so felt the need to come down from the Olympus Mons and smite it!

Either way, the European Parliament building has massive parallels with The Tower of Babel which are quite hard to refute. It's nothing to do with the "Ziggurat" aspect, more to do with all people's under one governance.

Have you anything to say about my citations regarding the 1st and 3rd Reichs being instruments of The Holy Roman Empire to bring about a ritual "holocaust"? Which, incidentally, brings us neatly back around to the subject of "reform".

I have no faith whatsoever that the Holy Roman Empire can unite the world and bring about the 3rd Babylonian age, quite the opposite - they've have 3 bites at the apple since the fall of the second Babylon and have failed each time. My only concern is that every time they have tried it has caused human suffering on a scale unprecedented except by the previous attempt.

-Goo™

[Legendary Apophis]

i said i wouldn't post about symbols, but i cant help rubbing peoples noses in it!


Baal, Baphomet, Horus, Lucifer all mean one thing ---> Satan the devil. the naysayers can deny it all they want:

Seth was the evil god in Egypt, not Horus...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WztB6HzXxI

it must be noted that while the children are reading "My Pet Goat", Bush is holding the book upside down.
it might not be clear in this film but the reporters and camera men who were there did indeed confirm that bush held the book upside down.

forget the name of the link below, just take a look at all the pictures, that's what's important here:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... _satan.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... satan2.htm

that's a VERY popular hand signal with our leaders and the celebrities for some reason?!?!

Problem is there's not only the site name that is not really looking realistic lol

in the image below you can see in the background the famous golden arches of the McDonald's logo, but what very few people know is that, those arches are NOT a capital "M", they are in fact, the rams horns or, the horns of Baphomet.
[img]
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20 ... s-sign.jpg[/img]

Oh yes if you catch me with a picture doing this sign for the lols as those guys OBVIOUSLY do, infront of a Dodge Ram, you are going to consider me as a satanist too? Below the logo of the Dodge Ram.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

McDonald's food has been designed to attack the body, porn attacks the spirit while all the pesticides, chemicals and additives attack the mind. this is not some fantasy, we are being attacked on all 3 levels, mind, body and soul, and everyone is oblivious to the assault.
McDo is known to do bad effects to health when consumed excessively, like everything on that matter. Fast food not being most healthy kind of foods is known. Now, porn attacks to my mind, lol, I have yet to see strange messages from my dvd player, calculator or any analogic kind of "screen" telling me to do stuff. So my mind wasn't porn attacked yet, sorry!

as for this VERY well known logo, its not a "tick" (as in, tick for correct) as most people think it is ...any guess as to what it is?



but don't take my word for it, go look at ALL the corporate logos and look for similarities, such as pyramids, the eye of Horus pentagrams and so on....
Now that reminds me of Hellfire Council from the tv movie "The Curse of King Tut's Tomb".

OH, 1 last thing, what's this building doing in the US???

LOL I know of that one, posted it twice, well who knows. Architect's silliness? Secret beliefs? Big mistake?
This one is not an unknown case you know.


And Goo, you are as I said interpreting historical events and link them together. Noone denies those events happend. However, the use of them is where there's a split.

You said that limiting birth rate was a genocide, and yet you accuse church of being reincarnation of the evil (Baal representation being the cross, and cross being where the Christ is on representations, and it being continuation of old religions etc.)
Church prays the opposite of limiting birth rate, one of points I disagree with them.
So you accuse one view and its opposite to be both evil? Care to explain?

[[KMA]Avenger]

you proved my point Jim, you "saw" but you did not take in anything i said or showed you...

for instance, i posted the link for those pics of the satanic hand signs, and yet, i stated that you should ignore the name of the website (because the name of the site is NOT important, what was important was the fact that ALL those people use a satanic hand signal) and look at the pictures, which you failed to do...unless you think those pictures are photoshop'd?

as for the swastika shaped building...are you trying to tell me the design is an accident? PLEASE!!!


and yes, Dodge use the Ram as their logo because they are also part of the deception/lie...


i rest my case.

[Legendary Apophis]

you proved my point Jim, you "saw" but you did not take in anything i said or showed you...

for instance, i posted the link for those pics of the satanic hand signs, and yet, i stated that you should ignore the name of the website (because the name of the site is NOT important, what was important was the fact that ALL those people use a satanic hand signal) and look at the pictures, which you failed to do...unless you think those pictures are photoshop'd?

as for the swastika shaped building...are you trying to tell me the design is an accident? PLEASE!!!


and yes, Dodge use the Ram as their logo because they are also part of the deception/lie...


i rest my case.

That proved nothing. I'll repeat myself:

Oh yes if you catch me with a picture doing this sign for the lols as those guys OBVIOUSLY do, infront of a Dodge Ram, you are going to consider me as a satanist too? Below the logo of the Dodge Ram.

That would have put me in this page, if I was to be a celeb. Would it mean I am a satanist?
In this page, some do it for the lols (heard of something called humour/jokes?), some because they are indeed following it, etc...

Photoshopped? No...
Failed to watch them? No...
Failed to consider them as proves that every of them are hardcore satanists? YES!

We don't talk of tattooes here, but signs into picture, with half of people laughing. Serious stuff isn't it?

As for the building, read what I said lol.


EDIT: Infact, I didn't watch links at first hand. Later I did, and I got my first stance confirmed.
AGAIN, a matter of interpretation.

[agapooka]

So you think that it's likelier that politicians and celebrities have conspired to use a symbol that can be interpreted as being a symbol of satanic allegiance, "for the lols"?

I agree that it is a possibility that one could use any symbol, regardless of its meaning, "for the lols"; however, when a group of individuals who have attributes of power, popularity and/or influence in common consistently use such a symbol, the likelihood of it being "for the lols" is greatly diminished.

When it is acknowledged that, in certain satanic cults, Satan is viewed as the source of any power and influence of the believers, would this not be consistent with the above? Certainly, it does not prove anything. Actually, it's nearly impossible to prove anything, no matter what it is you are trying to prove.

All that's being argued here is that it is a REASONABLE belief that that which I present as a possibility is indeed possibility and, in light of the above, is, in fact, LIKELIER than the alternative you've proposed.

Agapooka

[Legendary Apophis]

Then it would mean there's a GREAT bunch of satanists in this world, Pookie.
Heck, me included, as I did this sign few times in my life, but I have never been part of any satanist cult, nor believed in satan at all, unlike some people from this forum (well, not any of the main debaters here, but there are definitely people "worshipping" satan here, mainly hardcore followers of the dark/black/nu metal stuff).

When you see Paris Hilton or some celeb doing a gang sign while laughing, does it mean they are from a gang?
When you see Bush doing middle finger with angry face, does it mean he's a rebel to society?

Who said people in power can't have humour?
Seriously, this is too serious!

[[KMA]Avenger]

Failed to watch them? No...

i have no doubt you looked at them Jim, but you still failed to "see".

Failed to consider them as proves that every of them are hardcore satanists? YES!

ALL of those people are occultists and Satanists, and ALL of them are members of occult/secret organizations and the majority of those in the pictures are also members of the Bohemian Grove and most of the American politicians in those pictures are also members of Skull and Bones.

its like i'm telling you to climb a tree because there's a lion about to jump on you, you can see its there and yet you deny its a lion, instead calling it a kitty cat...


tell me something mate, forgetting ALL of the above and forget what i'm saying, just answer me this...why is it so hard to believe our leaders and celebs are Satanists???

[Legendary Apophis]

Failed to watch them? No...

i have no doubt you looked at them Jim, but you still failed to "see".

Failed to consider them as proves that every of them are hardcore satanists? YES!

ALL of those people are occultists and Satanists, and ALL of them are members of occult/secret organizations and the majority of those in the pictures are also members of the Bohemian Grove and most of the American politicians in those pictures are also members of Skull and Bones.

its like i'm telling you to climb a tree because there's a lion about to jump on you, you can see its there and yet you deny its a lion, instead calling it a kitty cat...


tell me something mate, forgetting ALL of the above and forget what i'm saying, just answer me this...why is it so hard to believe our leaders and celebs are Satanists???

What is hard to believe is why would they "all" be satanists?

The medias information contains lies...but the counter-information is also full of lies and hoaxes, don't forget that!

[[KMA]Avenger]

come on mate, you must have some idea why you find it so hard to believe there are people in high positions who cold be so evil?


Jim, i know that all to well, you have no idea how much bull crap i've gone through to get to the truth.

[Legendary Apophis]

come on mate, you must have some idea why you find it so hard to believe there are people in high positions who cold be so evil?


Jim, i know that all to well, you have no idea how much bull crap i've gone through to get to the truth.

No, what I don't fall to is that "everyone" is evil. There has always been rotten apples. It will continue. I didn't say otherwise. But damn...between "some" and "almost everyone" there is a gap. And don't expect me to jump this gap!

[agapooka]

Then it would mean there's a GREAT bunch of satanists in this world, Pookie.

It could possibly mean that, depending on how you understand your above conclusion, although it does not necessarily mean that. You fail at logic yet again and I'll show you why.

Heck, me included, as I did this sign few times in my life, but I have never been part of any satanist cult, nor believed in satan at all,

I never stated that all people who make that sign are necessarily satanists. To the contrary, I stated that I could easily see people doing things like this "for the lols". That apparently didn't register, did it?

That, however, is in contrast to politicians and celebrities from various countries showing the SAME symbol in a consistent manner. What, are they all part of the same club and have conspired to have an inside joke? Are they independent from each other, but have a horrendous lack of imagination when it comes to making jokes?

unlike some people from this forum (well, not any of the main debaters here, but there are definitely people "worshipping" satan here, mainly hardcore followers of the dark/black/nu metal stuff).

Good for them, I guess.

When you see Paris Hilton or some celeb doing a gang sign while laughing, does it mean they are from a gang?

Nope, but then again, I never said that it might. Now imagine that all celebrities and politicians started doing the same gang sign. Would your perspective of the situation change? Would the celebrities and politicans risk being affiliated to a questionable organisation for unoriginal humour? Wouldn't that be irresponsible? Or might you suspect that they are in some way affiliated to the questionable organisation?

When you see Bush doing middle finger with angry face, does it mean he's a rebel to society?

In and of itself, it could mean many things as an isolated event. What you consistently fail to grasp is the contrast between isolated events and apparent purposeful group efforts to some effect, whether they be humorous or otherwise. At least, you ignore them when they don't fit your purposes, but you feel free to use isolated events as if they were consistent patterns to prove a point. I don't particularily feel encouraged to reply to you, knowing that you'll automatically gainsay everything that's said without an ounce of critical thinking. I'm not even saying that my "interpretation" is necessarily true. I'm only saying that it's a reasonable possibility.

Who said people in power can't have humour?
Seriously, this is too serious!

Apparently, you're the one that came closest to saying that. I'm only giving one possible interpretation and arguing that it's likelier and more reasonable than assuming that all leaders are irresponsible enough to play a joke on us by consistently using the same questionable symbols.

We haven't disagreed on the fact that the symbols have many questionable interpretations, some of which are strangely satanic. Those symbols fall under the term "questionable symbols". To many who understand the satanic meaning of these symbols, using those symbols for humorous purposes is the humorous equivalent of making a joke about "how fun it must be to smash planes into buildings full of people and how delightful a music it must be to hear their innocent and pathetic, but fading cries". Would a politician make such a joke?

If you don't understand the lien between these two would-be "jokes", then I'm afraid that you simply don't understand the symbols you claim are used as jokes. If a civilian makes a joke like that, it will be accepted among ignorant people. Someone in power, however, should be more responsible and more thorough - if it's a joke. Heck, if it's a joke, it's an incredibly unoriginal one, seeing as it's so common. If it's not a joke, its widespread use and the context within which it is used becomes clearer.

As for your "rotten apples" argument, it fails miserably, too. You didn't study Latin, did you? If you had, you MIGHT have read the Roman story about how rotten apples infect the rest of the basket. If greed is evil, as its consequences surely cause people to act in a way that is commonly termed evil, and humans are fundamentally greedy, you have the answer staring at you in the face. Furthermore, power DOES corrupt. If you can't accept that, it must be fun to bask in your ignorance, assuming that ignorance is a bliss. Power corrupts. We're talking about people in power being corrupt. Does this seem like a long stretch to you or what?

Maybe you need to know why power corrupts. I wouldn't want to ruin your virgin mind by putting you in any position of actual power, so I'll tell you, instead. When you have power, you can do more things. Are we clear on that? When you can do more things than other people, because, well, you have more power than them, you may find it to be a profitable venture to do things FOR them for... something in return. Uh-oh... greed.

But it continues. With more power, one acts differently. One may refuse to associate with mere underlings and have a motivation to seek people of similar standing to them. So, people with power hang around others who have power. They can benefit from those others in power, but sshhh, because sometimes the way in which people in power benefit each other might break laws, but who cares about those? Just be quiet and nobody will know, right? Heck, women might be attracted to you, now that you can do whatever you want. That's hot. That's sexy. And of course, you can't say no to an endless stream of supermodels begging to share your bed, now, can you? Just as long as people continue thinking you still have such a thing as integrity, it's ok to have somthing going on on the side.

Oh, but it continues, as this was just the beginning. The people with power, however, having formed their own groups of like people, will see it as advantageous to transfer the power to friends or family so that their own corruption cannot be uncovered when they leave office! So, they get control of the appropriate venues to achieve just that and... they do. It goes on, but I'm sure that you have trouble accepting what I've already mentioned. This may be good for your virgin mind, which knows nothing of power in any of its luscious, attractive and sparkling forms.

Some people claim they don't want power, but very few can say the same when they actually have power.

Agapooka

[Legendary Apophis]

Then it would mean there's a GREAT bunch of satanists in this world, Pookie.

It could possibly mean that, depending on how you understand your above conclusion, although it does not necessarily mean that. You fail at logic yet again and I'll show you why.

Heck, me included, as I did this sign few times in my life, but I have never been part of any satanist cult, nor believed in satan at all,

I never stated that all people who make that sign are necessarily satanists. To the contrary, I stated that I could easily see people doing things like this "for the lols". That apparently didn't register, did it?
I wasn't answering you only, but also Avenger. I know the global answers caused already misunderstandings in this topic, and I am sorry for that. Will avoid doing it again.

That, however, is in contrast to politicians and celebrities from various countries showing the SAME symbol in a consistent manner. What, are they all part of the same club and have conspired to have an inside joke? Are they independent from each other, but have a horrendous lack of imagination when it comes to making jokes?
Those who do it frenquently are indeed guilty.

unlike some people from this forum (well, not any of the main debaters here, but there are definitely people "worshipping" satan here, mainly hardcore followers of the dark/black/nu metal stuff).

Good for them, I guess.

When you see Paris Hilton or some celeb doing a gang sign while laughing, does it mean they are from a gang?

Nope, but then again, I never said that it might. Now imagine that all celebrities and politicians started doing the same gang sign. Would your perspective of the situation change? Would the celebrities and politicans risk being affiliated to a questionable organisation for unoriginal humour? Wouldn't that be irresponsible? Or might you suspect that they are in some way affiliated to the questionable organisation?
I was refering to those who don't do it frenquently. And not only humorous, but also provocative. Politicians like doing that.

When you see Bush doing middle finger with angry face, does it mean he's a rebel to society?

In and of itself, it could mean many things as an isolated event. What you consistently fail to grasp is the contrast between isolated events and apparent purposeful group efforts to some effect, whether they be humorous or otherwise. At least, you ignore them when they don't fit your purposes, but you feel free to use isolated events as if they were consistent patterns to prove a point. I don't particularily feel encouraged to reply to you, knowing that you'll automatically gainsay everything that's said without an ounce of critical thinking. I'm not even saying that my "interpretation" is necessarily true. I'm only saying that it's a reasonable possibility.
Yes a bunch of rock bands/artists and two autoritarian leaders with controversial biography/origins/actions who can be considered as guilty of being satanists, is it really surprising? For the rest, however, it's not really appliable, if at all.

Who said people in power can't have humour?
Seriously, this is too serious!

Apparently, you're the one that came closest to saying that. I'm only giving one possible interpretation and arguing that it's likelier and more reasonable than assuming that all leaders are irresponsible enough to play a joke on us by consistently using the same questionable symbols.

We haven't disagreed on the fact that the symbols have many questionable interpretations, some of which are strangely satanic. Those symbols fall under the term "questionable symbols". To many who understand the satanic meaning of these symbols, using those symbols for humorous purposes is the humorous equivalent of making a joke about "how fun it must be to smash planes into buildings full of people and how delightful a music it must be to hear their innocent and pathetic, but fading cries". Would a politician make such a joke?
Oh come on let's not go down there...I forgot to add, humourous OR provocative. Also, I didn't say it was really of a good taste. Like the "joke" you mentionned. Didn't say good joke, isn't it? Humour is sometimes not funny at all, for people with a good mind.

If you don't understand the lien between these two would-be "jokes", then I'm afraid that you simply don't understand the symbols you claim are used as jokes. If a civilian makes a joke like that, it will be accepted among ignorant people. Someone in power, however, should be more responsible and more thorough - if it's a joke. Heck, if it's a joke, it's an incredibly unoriginal one, seeing as it's so common. If it's not a joke, its widespread use and the context within which it is used becomes clearer.
Well, what can I say...find out why they do this sign? What purpose?
As for your "rotten apples" argument, it fails miserably, too. You didn't study Latin, did you? If you had, you MIGHT have read the Roman story about how rotten apples infect the rest of the basket. If greed is evil, as its consequences surely cause people to act in a way that is commonly termed evil, and humans are fundamentally greedy, you have it. Furthermore, power DOES corrupt. If you can't accept that, it must be fun to bask in your ignorance, assuming that ignorance is a bliss. Power corrupts. We're talking about people in power being corrupt. Does this seem like a long stretch to you or what?
Nice dissing on me lol. In all seriousness, there's justice to get rid of rotten apples. I studied latin for a short period of time, but it wasn't the satanist leaders' fault if I stopped, more likely because of another kind of threat to society, that isn't coming from the top...but from the ground...but I already mentionned it many times earlier in this topic. Rotten apples you get them out of the basket lol. Therefore my argument isn't miserable fail, mister! Sure, many times rotten apples aren't noticed [in time], but it doesn't mean that the "bad" wins over the "good" necessarly (I didn't say always). I expect you to tell me you didn't imply that, don't worry!
Agapooka

PS: everything that I posted in last hour and half was done while watching at same time a football match qualifying for 2010 world cup. Sorry if I lacked logic or anything lol

[agapooka]

When are "bad apples" actually removed for any other reason than greed? You'll mention Hitler, I'm sure, but I'd argue that the reason was greed. Who benefited from his removal? The US. They got all the *wonderful* research he'd made and continued it.

So, if "bad apples" are removed, could it be that they are removed because they have become rotten to the point of no longer appearing palatable and need to be replaced with a new apple, rotten from the inside?

Oh and two more questions:

1. How come you don't answer most of my important points? They still stand. ;p
2. So, by saying that "bad humour" isn't appreciated by "good minds", and assuming that someone with a "good mind" wouldn't make a joke or provocation that is in bad taste, aren't you essentially admitting that all those who make this sign for humorous purposes have a "bad mind"? That's pretty much all I was getting at. ;p

Agapooka

[Legendary Apophis]

When are "bad apples" actually removed for any other reason than greed? You'll mention Hitler, I'm sure, but I'd argue that the reason was greed. Who benefited from his removal? The US. They got all the *wonderful* research he'd made and continued it.

So, if "bad apples" are removed, could it be that they are removed because they have become rotten to the point of no longer appearing palatable and need to be replaced with a new apple, rotten from the inside?

Oh and two more questions:

1. How come you don't answer most of my important points? They still stand. ;p
2. So, by saying that "bad humour" isn't appreciated by "good minds", and assuming that someone with a "good mind" wouldn't make a joke or provocation that is in bad taste, aren't you essentially admitting that all those who make this sign for humorous purposes have a "bad mind"? That's pretty much all I was getting at. ;p

Agapooka

Corrupted people are rotten apples. That's what I meant. And yes, USA benefited from this. That's why I said earlier in the topic, don't put on the same bag the current EU and USA/Russia (for every things they did during cold war). I mean by that, rotten apples in the cold war "leaders" weren't only about being greediness.

Nobody is perfect, but you implied that full rotten people are replaced by half rotten until they become full and replaced as well. It all depends what you call rotten inside.

1. Which are? Sorry but important points for you might not appear as important for me (I didn't say they do not, but just wanted clarifying)
2. I said "sometimes", because I didn't feel like making a whole analysis on the matter, can't be bothered to . It depends on mood, oh so many things....argh!


----------------------

Now if we are going to talk about controversial stuff/proves...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpq7TtMEBFA&

Shahid Malik (born 24 November 1967) is a British Labour Party politician, the Member of Parliament for Dewsbury. He is currently a Parliamentary Under Secretary of State in the Department for Communities and Local Government.

See, there isn't only Avenger's pointed out evilness in this world!
Yes, it's a matter of interpretation regarding this dude words, it's obvious...but well...all I can say is that such dude achieve to feed racist/extremist parties' credibility such as the UK BNP.