$ Players

[MaxSterling]

I agree. However, as I said, trading for money between players doesn't benefit the game, but just players on the offer and demand sides. No doubts it's permitted, it's just that the outcome is less...interesting in long term global-wise. (unless it's friends with whom you trade, but again, it's just interesting for you and him/her).

IF trading between players for money wasn't allowed by admin, then, I would agree to call it cheating. Presently it's not the case..therefore...

Trading between players doesn't benefit admin... no. But the account is still in the game and therefore the game still benefits. It's just like bringing in a pinch hitter or relief pitcher. The old player is tired and a fresher player comes in to relieve them and revive the account. Not necessarily the same playing style, but maybe that's what the account needs... just like a baseball team sending in the relief pitcher. Do the accomplishments of the pitcher that kept the game even after 13 innings go unrewarded/unnoticed just because a relief pitcher comes in the last few innings? Keeping these accounts/resources actively in game is much better than losing them to an eternal vacation mode, IMO.

[MaxSterling]

Semper,
Your whole argument is based on your definition of cheating and how you perceive it. Not everyone views it the same way. To me, cheating would involve someone going against the game rules or exploiting an option not available or known to everyone else in the game.

To cheat is to gain an unfair advantage, no matter how you try to twist it, that is what you're doing when you spend copious sums of money buying an advantage in this game.

That's like calling a professional sports team cheaters because they feel it's worthwhile to pay a luxury tax for going over the salary cap. They are, afterall, gaining an unfair advantage... right... even though it's a perfectly legitimate practice in the sport and every team has the option of doing that as well?

[Quina Quen]

The absolute bottom line is simple. If you (the reader) were the adminstrator, and the game continued to have it's own economy which ultimately made the lining of your pockets shine, would you implement anything at all to stop real currency spending? (Inside or outside of the game). Didn't think so.

For those who seem to demonstrate so much anguish at those who do spend entensive and perhaps ridiculous amounts of money, there's not much more to say to you than learn to deal with others being considerably richer than you.

If it makes you feel better, you can always refer youself back to that age old notion that 'some people just have more money than sense'.

To be one of those. Oh bliss... *wanders off into a dream*

[MaxSterling]

Your analogy is a bad one. The player's salary does not effect their performance.

My analogy was equal to keeping a 2nd tier player on your roster ( 250b mothership ) and staying under the salary cap ( free account )... or going for the marquis player that consistently puts up big numbers ( 1T mothership ) and paying extra for it.

[Legendary Apophis]

For those who seem to demonstrate so much anguish at those who do spend entensive and perhaps ridiculous amounts of money, there's not much more to say to you than learn to deal with others being considerably richer than you.

I like that part. People need to grow up regarding it, and move from there, and forget about the ridiculous "fight of classes" (kept alive by those damn leftist fans of Marx & Lenin <_<).

[Quina Quen]

“Communism is in conflict with human nature.”

Ernest Renan

[MaxSterling]

Your analogy is a bad one. The player's salary does not effect their performance.

My analogy was equal to keeping a 2nd tier player on your roster ( 250b mothership ) and staying under the salary cap ( free account )... or going for the marquis player that consistently puts up big numbers ( 1T mothership ) and paying extra for it.

Again, your analogy is far off.

The analogy you just gave would be if a strong player were to join your alliance, the appropriate analogy would be if said sports team started pumping their players full of steroids.

My analogy is the equivalent of purchasing a stronger account to replace your old one.
Your analogy is the equivalent of purchasing resources to pump up your current account.
My analogy is not way off. You're just on a different page than me.

[Death_Glider]

Trading between players doesn't benefit admin... no. But the account is still in the game and therefore the game still benefits. It's just like bringing in a pinch hitter or relief pitcher. The old player is tired and a fresher player comes in to relieve them and revive the account. Not necessarily the same playing style, but maybe that's what the account needs... just like a baseball team sending in the relief pitcher. Do the accomplishments of the pitcher that kept the game even after 13 innings go unrewarded/unnoticed just because a relief pitcher comes in the last few innings? Keeping these accounts/resources actively in game is much better than losing them to an eternal vacation mode, IMO.

I was going to stay out of this, then I saw the above.

Let me break it down, a game needs a player base, the game cannot progress or sustain itself unless its player base grows. Games will fail if they cannot sustain a growing player base.

How does this relate to the above. Player A doesn't want to start from scratch, so he buys an account from Player B who is tired of the admin not caring about his or her input and wants to leave with enough for a Happy Meal or whatever(no $ goes to the game). Player A then goes around picking on smaller accounts just because he can, accounts that have been worked on from scratch and have either asceneded or donated to the game to get where they were.

Player A picks on the wrong person (Player C), a War then starts, Player A is quickly overwhelmed by actual skill, so then they proceed to purchase accounts for their "friends" and purchasing goods from other players with $$(again no $ goes to the game). Player C and his Alliance are quickly overwhelmed by numbers and decide to call it quits because no matter how much effort is put in, Player A has the advantage and with that, the husk of a once geat account floats aimlessly in space with no owner (1 account lost) and soon his or her friends decided the same (loss of more accounts to the void).

Congratulations, your player base has shrunken because of player A. Before you call bull on this example ... I was Player C, and have been gone for almost two years. Why am I back, because I miss communicating with my bud and he stopped playing wow, so i use this to chat with him at work and BS.

The admin really needs to re-think things before this games turns into an embarrassment rather than a legacy.

Best,
Death Glider (DG)

[GrizzZzzly]

For those who seem to demonstrate so much anguish at those who do spend entensive and perhaps ridiculous amounts of money, there's not much more to say to you than learn to deal with others being considerably richer than you.

I like that part. People need to grow up regarding it, and move from there, and forget about the ridiculous "fight of classes" (kept alive by those damn leftist fans of Marx & Lenin <_<).

people dont want everyone to be equal but everyone to have an equal chance. Which is democracy, not communism.

If you join the game late, you cannot possibly expect to have an amazing account within a week.

[buck]

Plus the unequal in itself creates a balance, It breeds amazeing players who dont have the dollars, and those are worth so much in this game!

[semper]

oh... im gonna destroy you..

Semper,
Your whole argument is based on your definition of cheating and how you perceive it. Not everyone views it the same way. To me, cheating would involve someone going against the game rules or exploiting an option not available or known to everyone else in the game.

No. My argument is based on THE definition of cheating. Who'd have thought cheating can encompass more than one thing? Let's take a second here... could both yours and mine be right? Oh! Hold the phone.. yes they could.

Tell me the two ways and meanings of the collective letters 'tear'.

If you're gonna try and the language games with me.. and the whole perspectives issue.. just let me stop you right here and say - don't bother. Everytime.. you're going to lose the argument and the point.

You believe in the tooth fairy. You believe that if you put your tooth under your pillow at night, the tooth fairy will take your tooth and put money under your pillow the next morning. Lore knows the tooth fairy doesn't exist. He takes his tooth directly to his parents and they give him money on the spot. The end result is the same. It's your set of beliefs that are holding you back. It must piss you off that he cheated and didn't go through the hard work of putting his tooth under the pillow and waiting an entire night to get his money.

lol. That's utterly wrong and out of context. I'm really grinning like a cheshire cat here... so you think putting work and effort into something is the same as sleeping for a night? If anything actually... your examples would be the OTHER way round. People who put effort into their accounts are the ones who bothered to face up to the reality they can't and shouldn't waste $$ on it.. so make the effort to go downstairs and confront their parents with the issue. You guys who spend the $$ are the lazy sods sleeping it through with the credit card replacing every uu.. I mean tooth you lose.

You tell me.. seriously... within the context of the game. Who is more like the kids that go to the effort to go downstairs and confront their parents and face the truth of the issue. Is it the guys working their asses off to try and keep near the top without taking the easy $$ way out.. or is it the guys wipping their purse out everytime they cannot be arsed to go raiding, or farming or wait to see their UP do the work. lol.. your example.. is exactly right. You just got it the wrong way round mate... very clearly so too!

and for the record.. you'd be hard pressed to find a more cynical person on these forums than myself.

According to your logic, bowlers that buy a bowling ball for every type of lane condition are cheaters because they do not use the "house" bowling balls. Dart throwers that build their own custom darts are cheating because they don't use the "house" darts. Hell... I can't even buy a sand wedge or 5-wood in my golf club set because that would be like buying a mothership on GW.

No. That's wrong.. and a different circumstance. Firstly they're professions for peoples lively hoods...secondly you cannot graft a gold club, bowling ball or dart through hard work without money.. society does not allow for it you moron...

you can however build an MS, a UP and beyond on GW WITHOUT the use of money... and you can adapt it to different circumstances without money.

My point is... there are no rules stating that you cannot buy resources/accounts outside of the game market. If there were, then they would be cheating.

So... in every country there are not rules against animal testing.. sweat shops... erm...ooo...killing someone because they wronged you.. does that mean they're all right? In all these places? Does that mean.. it's not slavery... and it's not murder.. and it's not abuse? Just because there is not a rule against them directly... or... have these governments and TNC's abolished the rules to benefit the people in power...

the scale of how crap your argument is.. I love it so much I lol...

Just because you believe that the game should be played a certain way, doesn't mean others are cheating because they do not share your beliefs.

It's not a belief..it's a definition. If we start questioning definitions.. then I might as well answer your next point by saying.. there is a rhino in this room. We're not even in the same room!

My personal belief is I don't personally give a crap.. but I love a good argument so sit here and make these points regardless. Oh, and I like Jack and he does believe against it.

The option to spend $$$ to upgrade an account is available to everyone with a means to pay. Everyone can sell their own resources in-game, farm, and raid to raise the resources to buy a new account.

Oh please... I can take a dump in the street. I can murder someone and I can choose not to recycle.. I can choose to slap a child about... but does that mean I should do it because I can?

I am probably more well off than most if not everyone here... I could inject thousands of £'s into this thing, hell I could probably buy the dam game and just have jason code my own personal advantages in (yes I said £'s... REAL money)... but I don't because it would just be rotten of me to do so and it would be cheating.. yet.. it would all be well within my opportunities and the rules of the system governing all of the above to do so...

So I assume by your logic.. it's ok if I did do all that? Go on.. say yes.. I dare you to try that BS on everyone reading it. You'd probably be one of the first to come winging that i'd have introduced unfair advantages for myself just because I can...

Just because you do not want to take that option, doesn't mean everyone that does take that option is cheating. Hell there are specific forums in the game's official forum specifically for $$$ trades... probably created with Jason's knowledge. Therefore we know it's not against the rules.

That's a horribly illogical conclusion. Just because the man who get's all the money knows about it and does not object means it's not cheating. What a ridiculous statement.

You're write.. because I choose not to take that option does not make it cheating, but it does not make it not cheating either.. in fact it has no effect on whether what you do or not is cheating or abusing an admins greed to benefit yourself. The fact it is.. by definition cheating.. makes it cheating.

Either way.. no matter how you look at it.. it's not 'right' and any way you try and justify it as being so.. will either start to re-write the dictionary or just be twisted (il)logic.

Is buying resources immoral to some players? Yes - Agree
Is it cheating? Obviously not considering the game admin knowingly allows it.

Why on earth... would a game admin like jason stop it? You seem to be the one who still believes in the tooth fairy to me.. if you cannot see Jason's corruption on the issue.

FYI... the only personal $$$ I've spent on this game has gone to Full Supporter Status.

Don't care... lol. You defend it.. you're no better.

Personally I don't mind if people spend $$$ on this game to gain an advantage. I've decided long ago that I'm building up my account the hard way. The fact that people are spending $$$ just makes it more challenging for me... and I like that challenge ahead of me. It just makes my accomplishments that much sweeter.

lol. I am glad you can see the brighter side of it...as irrelevant as it is to me.

No matter how much $$$ they spend on the game, their defense and mothership can still be massed by players that put in the time and effort.

Yes... we know this... I don't believe anyone ever said to the contrary.

@ Phil. Indeed.. but they are a very much dying breed...and in some circumstances fast becoming extinct and tired with the forced continue effort in a losing battle. I can say one of the reasons I don't put a lot of effort in.. is the fact I won't spend cash on the game and I won't see my effort wasted against someone who does. There's no true competition with people cheating.

[Legendary Apophis]

For those who seem to demonstrate so much anguish at those who do spend entensive and perhaps ridiculous amounts of money, there's not much more to say to you than learn to deal with others being considerably richer than you.

I like that part. People need to grow up regarding it, and move from there, and forget about the ridiculous "fight of classes" (kept alive by those damn leftist fans of Marx & Lenin <_<).

people dont want everyone to be equal but everyone to have an equal chance. Which is democracy, not communism.

If you join the game late, you cannot possibly expect to have an amazing account within a week.

I just meant the famous antagonism between popular-working classes and the others (didn't use Marx name for nothing) is sort of annoying the hell out of me.

Also, care to explain me why admin wouldn't want to get rid of players to players cash trades, if he didn't like it?

[GrizzZzzly]

I cannot know for certain, due to the fact I am not him but I assume Admin doesn't see the need to do anything which could potentially stop people from playing. If suddenly he said no to cash trading players will leave. Also, those players that use cash are far more likely to support the game therefore he would rather those players, who support him stayed than If he drives those players out by banning cash trades. What seems to be forgotten though is that if he does ban cash trades, the whole game might benefit. That prospect seems to be lost with Admin.

[lone dragon]

While I guess I am old fashioned, I prefer to play with in the frame work of the game, without paying to be a decent competitor. To me it would taint the right to say I am a real player. While some people may to play as a large player I would rather use a small account that I have achieve myself than palm off that I did it, when I did not. While I would not want to buy my way to acceptance, if I did I would consider it rude to the creator of the game not to buy from him, after all it he spends so much time making up this game, if anyone should profit from it, this should be the moderator of the game, not a player who has rigged a market whom technically makes off money off the designer. While I judge no-one for what they believe, if they want to pay then that's fine, but its not for me.

[semper]

ah. Problem being... is Jason no longer does said hard work. He's long given up on it...

as my last post (I once again have to head off into the big brave world of university work...) I shall communicate the messages through the medium of picture. Two pictures in fact...





It's been a fun weekend of horror and personal attacks. I know though that despite Jack and my owns best efforts...our logic, our correctness.. will only ever fall on death ears until it's too late.. and just with SS, raiding, ascension and fast resources... it will be too late.