general discussion about national ID cards.

[[KMA]Avenger]

we'll just agree to disagree for 99% of your last post, would save allot of posting, counter posting and head aches lol.

i will say it 1 more time...i dont want it and will sooner go to prison or be charged as a terrorist before i accept an ID card, i dont care if the thing only had my name on it and wasn't even able to hold any kind of other data, i wont have it! and if i am asked for ID and my drivers licence isn't acceptable then that's my tough s*** that i have to run along home and get my passport.

also, make the establishments life easier?! now why the hell would i make an illegitimate Govts job easier??? i dont use the word "illegitimate" lightly, i have a 700meg file on my PC which proves the UK Govt ever since Ted heath and the early 70's are a bunch of traitors....thats not "theory" its provable fact which would stand up in any court.

so,if we in the UK have an illegitimate Govt, then please tell me how any laws put into place from the early 70's to this very day are lawful?

there are just way to many facets surrounding this topic i think it best for me to not drag any other sides of the argument into this thread

anyways, i'm 41 and 3/4 lol...how old are you?


edit:

i've posted quite a few times how i have the proof Ted Heaths Govt was treasonous by taking the UK into the EU and that every Govt since then have been guilty (after the fact) of the same...so here it is, you can also download the same file but i warn you guys, its 700 megs in size and is not light reading, there is a massive amount of info here : http://roundholesquarepeg.co.uk/shoehorned.html

[Kit-Fox]

As this is about teh UK ID scheme I feel it important to point out to Brdavs the following point;

You mention that we have elections every 4 years (your actually wrong right there, the law requires an election only once every 5 years)

And that these elections are how transparency and accountability are maintained. Let me ask you, did you read my post about the civil service??

I tihnk not otherwise you wouldnt have said such a stupid statement & it really is stupid. No one that is elected in the UK today has any real power at all, they do not make decisions & they dont dictate policy. The civil service does that & you dont vote for them, you cant remove them from office and you cant tell them what to do.

So actually in reality the UK system is anything but transparent, accountable or even democratic.

[[KMA]Avenger]

hence why i laughed

maybe i should have explained it rather than laugh, but then again i wouldn't have explained the situation in the UK as good as KF did

[Kit-Fox]

And to continue with my point raising theme;

Why should I be a number on a computer system anywhere?

My life cannot and should not be analysied, quantified, filed, and then stored. My life is much more than just numbers or figures on some ledger somewhere.

Or to quote The Prisoner...

I am not a number, I am a free man.

I am not a number. I am a person.

[Brdavs]

You people are just wallowing in irrational fear and have this funny notion that if things dont go your way they`re inheritly tyranical or illegitimate. Thats abuse/misuse of the terminology for populist and conspiracy theorist reasons.

Civil service takes cues from politics and legislature. You have an influence on that.

As far as I know the UK even held a post-legislative referendum on the european integrations in 75 and voted for them by a big margain. You can allways hold another one and leve the EU as per LT that now enables you to do that. The political elites obviously see more gain from staying but if you disagree the chanells are there. Run for office. Support the nationalist party.

Lack of proper public initiative or universal support for these steps does not imply those steps are not there to be taken cos you live in a illegitimate tyrany. I do beilieve that a certain % of the voter base can start a referendum, no? I believe the elections are coming up?



As far as IDs and freedomes go, I can cite you all the most free nations of the world having IDs. You can cite me who, North Corea? Do you think thats a rational argument? You can survive with CCTV but not with one more plastic card in your wallet, you`d rather go to the Tower?


About green taxes, I dunno howmany LCD tvs you buy per year but I drive a heck of a lot more heh. It`s happening in all fields, you think those products arent taxed? Incandescent light bulbs are being forced out too. You could say "why this why not that" in every field and in the end nothing would get done lol.

[Kit-Fox]

You can call it irrational and whatever else you like brdavs, but those os us who actually likve in the UK know differently. We know not only from information but from experience as well.

Take RIPA for example, RIPA = Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act. This act was created for use in terror related cases/incidents. It allows the police and other services to monitor/track/wiretap and have access to government held records of the person of interest. All very well if that person is indeed a terrorist, especially as powers of arrest under RIPA are greatly expanded as well as a lowering of the legal burden of proof. However RIPA has not been successfully used in any terrorist case to date, neither has it held prevent serious crime. Instead it is used to bring punative punishments against those who may drop a little litter or try to get their child into a good school right on the edge of their LEA (Local Education Authority) or to trace those who have had the audacity to use their recycling bin for the wrong coloured plastic/glass (despite the information leaflets the very same council issued saying all plastic & glass are to be put into the recycling bin)

All of those are not serious crimes, nor are they crimes where such a level of surveillance is required. In fact no level of surveillance is required at all for such issues. Neither is the power to arrest those who have 'commited' these 'crimes' at 3am in the morning by bursting into their homes at gunpoint.


Now I know that this doesnt directly as it were relate to the whole identity cards argument, however it is a clear indication of exactly how the government abuses powers it has granted itself. Do you honeslty think they wont do the same with the ID card act?

ps - did i mention that the full list of those who can access your information under RIPA includes;

- Police
- Security Forces (mi6 etc)
- Central Government officals (mps, their assistants & staff)
- Local Government officals (local ministers & their assistants & staff
- School teachers
- Doctors / nurses (in fact anyone employed by the NHS, including all those office workers)
- your local binmen
- your local postal workers

All of those people can access your data & if you think you have nothing to hide, you'd better be damned sure about it. Are you sure you dont have anything to hide? no treatments you wouldnt want the world to know about? no small slip ups as a young adult perhaps? Be sure, as they will know all about it

EDIT: Not to mention using the police to harrass & pester perfectly peaceful protestors and using the police to initiate violence at marches & gatherings.

Did you know that the right to protest outside parliment has been revoked, we no longer can protest at the seat of our government, once held across the world as an example of how democratic we were.

[Brdavs]

Well if you hang around with uncle Sam thats what you get I suppose...

Granted there are allways options for abuse but speaking from my POV I`m not living in a place where these things have gotten out of hand. So I can argue the theoretical usefulness if proper safeguards are in place.

Thoe it is true US and UK reached their epic peaks of "loony" with this war on terror thing...
Jsut goes to show, you peeps need more continental EU regulation. Embrace the union, running the other way got you where you are now.

[Kit-Fox]

So let me get this right? You are condemning us for being against ID cards & yet you conceed that the UK has reached new hieghts in looniness?

And that your solution to a state that is overly bloated & highy unfit for purpose is to surrender our sovereignty to another 'state' that again is overly-bloated, unfit for purpose, undemocratic & about to be make itself the biggest laughing stock in the world?

Please, what class about politics did you take?