sovereignty & patriotism vs all...

[[KMA]Avenger]

these damned unions. and just for pops. there will be no talk of Satanism or conspiracy's.

this topic was actually inspired by all the banners i've seen on people siggys, such as pops which states "proud to be European". personally and as a European i find it doubly offensive both as a Greek Cypriot and a British citizen. i have no problem with Europe in whole or part but what REALLY winds me up is when people put Europe ahead of their national sovereignty.

with the advances in technology we have seen over the past hundred years especially in the area of communications and with the advent of the internet, the world has not grown smaller but the peoples of the world have been brought closer together and we are as much Brits, French and other nationality's as well as being part of a global community, i understand all that, but that doesn't mean we all suddenly abandon our nationality in favour of a title such as "European".

what i am saying is, people (especially Europeans), should first and foremost consider themselves patriots and uphold their nations sovereignty, and 2nd say they are "European", not the other way around!

millions of people over the past 2000 years from the ancient Greeks to the present day (not forgetting the Americans) have given their lives so we can have our freedoms and nations sovereignty free any kind of tyranny and here we are throwing those gifts away...very VERY sad

i think the Greeks who died to stop the Persian tyranny flooding all over Europe, and the many millions from all nations who have since given their lives are rolling in their graves because of all these damned unions!


sorry, but that's the way i see it and that wont change regardless of anyone's arguments in this topic!


PS. i'm not an advocate of isolationism, and i'm not a hermit...i would just like to be able to visit country's like France, Spain, Greece and other country's one day and NOT states of Europe.

[Legendary Apophis]

[spoiler]

these damned unions. and just for pops. there will be no talk of Satanism or conspiracy's.

this topic was actually inspired by all the banners i've seen on people siggys, such as pops which states "proud to be European". personally and as a European i find it doubly offensive both as a Greek Cypriot and a British citizen. i have no problem with Europe in whole or part but what REALLY winds me up is when people put Europe ahead of their national sovereignty.

with the advances in technology we have seen over the past hundred years especially in the area of communications and with the advent of the internet, the world has not grown smaller but the peoples of the world have been brought closer together and we are as much Brits, French and other nationality's as well as being part of a global community, i understand all that, but that doesn't mean we all suddenly abandon our nationality in favour of a title such as "European".

what i am saying is, people (especially Europeans), should first and foremost consider themselves patriots and uphold their nations sovereignty, and 2nd say they are "European", not the other way around!

millions of people over the past 2000 years from the ancient Greeks to the present day (not forgetting the Americans) have given their lives so we can have our freedoms and nations sovereignty free any kind of tyranny and here we are throwing those gifts away...very VERY sad

i think the Greeks who died to stop the Persian tyranny flooding all over Europe, and the many millions from all nations who have since given their lives are rolling in their graves because of all these damned unions!


sorry, but that's the way i see it and that wont change regardless of anyone's arguments in this topic!


PS. i'm not an advocate of isolationism, and i'm not a hermit...i would just like to be able to visit country's like France, Spain, Greece and other country's one day and NOT states of Europe.

[/spoiler]
What I find offensive regarding flags...
People who harbour a flag of country B, when they live in country A for generation(s), when country B wins a football match, and that they would prefer to see country B win over country A, where they were born and raised, and barely lived in country B.


Now, back on topic. Europe of nation[alism]s has been the perfect ground for many decades for pride flexing between countries, just see WW1. Both sides hated each others and considered the other like inferior. Same for Germany towards Russia than towards France (thus France-UK-Russia alliance, convenient alliance against Germany). There was no point in hating each others, it was just thanks to isolationism and national pride excesses. People feeling my country > everything else. So when two countries with same mentality have minor troubles, it's likely to escalade in *no* time.
I'm not saying you have to be ashamed to be from your country. It's good to be where you are from, to defend it when people insult it by burning its flag or insulting its population...but let's give up the self centered admiration. European Union does NOT mean give up completly your nationality. I feel European before being French. Which doesn't mean I don't want to beat up scums who dare burning french flag.
With this idea of my nation > fact I'm european, ONLY thing it achieves is seperating people, differenciating them one to another. I do consider a german or slovenian who is proud to be european more similar to me (origins and stuff-like) than a french ultra nationalist who is strongly against EU and who was born in same town as I did with ancestry of 500+ years originated from France. Because we just don't share same values. He represents the past, I represent the future.

I don't see AT ALL the problem with visiting Spain UK Netherlands Austria...as european countries and not just nations. And YES it's being isolationist hermit like. You just want separated entities to live on their own.

Have you ever heard:

"Alone we are small, together we are grand?" or something like that?

Because if you think countries in Europe can each deal economically, military etc alone compared to massive countries such as USA, Russia and China, then you live in a dream. Because EU isn't only made of UK, France, Germany (and perhaps Italy) the "strongest" countries every argument involved. Global economy forces unions to resist to competition from other countries.

Finally, just have a look at Iceland economy. They kept their currency & are outside of EU. Now, compare it with Euro. Who's doing well? Not the first example. Sure Germany Netherlands and Austria would have probably resisted if they kept their former currency, but I'm likely to think that Lira, Franc, Pesetas (whatever it was) and other moneys would have really suffered from it.

Why would we want to walk under rain without an umbrella if we can have one?


PS: you live in the UK; UK, along with Belgium, are probably the most "divided" in the case of "origins pride", EU can face in its territories.
Wallons and Flemish people act like if their cultures were as different as...let's say...Israelian and Palestinian cultures. They hate each others, while their culture is almost the same (yes. It's almost the same. I wouldn't consider myself Spanish or German culture that different compared to mine, only real difference being language. Wallons should probably learn dutch better, but still, it doesn't give excuses to flemish people) Oh quite wonderful to make your "country" pass before EU, see what I just mentionned. That just calls people from different regions/countries to be hostile to each others if you bring nation pride first.
When I hear people who say UK isn't a nation, I'm like "wth are they smoking?" Desires of independance from Scotland ie make me feel that those countries exactly suffer from the thing you are defending, and which I'm speeching against. Europe of nation[alism]s. First it's nations, then it will be regions, smaller and smaller. Then city pride. Neighboorhood pride. Crazy stuff.

EU to save degenerating nations!!

[Brdavs]

You should probably stop taking "300" as a historical reference heh...



I too find it absolutly hillarious when a *brit* of all people, starts going on how his national identity is threathened and how the UK as a nationalistic state is threathened by integration.

Lol, what is britain but the archetypical supranational organization? "British" isnt even a proper nationality. You were scots, welsh english and irish first.
Dont you see lol? The arguments you utilize against EU are the same arguments people once clinged to on your island heh.

And people were Angles, Saxons, Jutes etc. before they were "english". And they identified themselves with their corner of the land and their landlord before the king.

The greeks that fought perzians identified themselves with their city states and dint even consider themselves greeks or did a distant distant 2nd. There are many cases in history when entities united against a common foe, no need to get all holywood melodramatic over gerard butler lol...

Before citiez there were tribes. Before those, families...




It`s been a constant social evolution of mankind.

And who is to say national states are the best and final outcome, honestly? Nationalsim is what, 200-250 years old? And it left a pritty bloody record behind sofar.

The people now calling themselves british once held their seperate nationalities above all and were in constant conflict.
A combination of dominance of one and outside threaths helped galvanize that rag tag into the brits we know and love today.

Who is to say a simmilar process where competition and threaths from outside, less democratic sources (russia, china, us) doesnt cause the EU to grow ever steadly closer in a multi polar world to be able to represent itsown viable alternative?

Why would it be inheretly tyranical and a "nationalistic" organization democratical? You realise that the majority of hardline nationalistic entities and induviduals displayed tyranical characteristics wheras multinational entities built on consensus such as the EU sacrifice efficiency etc. but can hardly be called a tyrany heh?

Would going one stap further really be so bad?
What does the notion of X sovereignty really mean to you?
What do you get out of hating or distancing yourself from ze germans & les frogs simply cos theyre ze germans and les frogs?

Why? To honor the memory of the ancester? But your ancesters died for sovereignty of oh so many entities, and most would have spat on you for upholding the british sovereignty.




Personally I think its the next logical step.

Its up to us to make it a good thing or a bad thing. A 1984 version or a star trek version, all is attainable. Neither is a given, to be feared or embraced "a priori". We went through so much to get this far, no reason to not boldly go forward shooting high and reaching for the stars & thereby maybe hitting the moon.

Seeing all the suffering nationalistic friction produced and produces I
dont think the current geopolitical and nationalistic fragmentation is the best the human race can ever attain in terms of its social structure.

Cos in the ultimate end, we`re all humans. Its a shame that we`re prolly gonna need an alien invasion to represent a common enemy to unify us against killing eachother (and towards killing someone else) lol.

[Legendary Apophis]

You should probably stop taking "300" as a historical reference heh...


Haha I thought the same.



The greeks that fought perzians identified themselves with their city states and dint even consider themselves greeks or did a distant distant 2nd. There are many cases in history when entities united against a common foe, no need to get all holywood melodramatic over gerard butler lol...

Before citiez there were tribes. Before those, families...

Asking ancient greek Thebans whether they felt like being bro's of Athenians or Plateans and the answer would be close to absolute negative!
That would mean Peloponnesian war was a civil war if they felt like a nation, same as Spartans-Athenians troubles back in 457-445.

I agree with the rest, by the way...

[Kit-Fox]

Actually to be a european does mean to give up your nationality, as you can only be in one camp.

You can either choose to be loyal to your nation as in Britian/France/Germany/Italy/Spain etc etc etc.

Or you can choose to be loyal to the nebulous idea that is Europe.

The two are mutally exclusive, especially as the nebulous idea that is Europe has completely different aims to every individual nation that makes it up.

[Legendary Apophis]

Actually to be a european does mean to give up your nationality, as you can only be in one camp.

You can either choose to be loyal to your nation as in Britian/France/Germany/Italy/Spain etc etc etc.

Or you can choose to be loyal to the nebulous idea that is Europe.

The two are mutally exclusive, especially as the nebulous idea that is Europe has completely different aims to every individual nation that makes it up.

Then I pick EU IF it was like that. (which is NOT)

[Kit-Fox]

Of course its like that, you cannot be loyal to two differing causes. You have to choose one or the other.

[Juliette]

Of course its like that, you cannot be loyal to two differing causes. You have to choose one or the other.

Exactly.. seems like a bunch of people haven't heard that "you cannot serve two masters". You're very right, Kit.

[Legendary Apophis]

Then I pick EU

And no, he's wrong. It's just an argument from the anti EU...
I'm not falling for that.

[Juliette]

Then I pick EU

And no, he's wrong. It's just an argument from the anti EU...
I'm not falling for that.

That has to be the most openly stupid reason for rejecting any argument I have seen so far.
And having been in this section since it's conception, I have seen a big pile of crap. This has to be one of the worst.

[Legendary Apophis]

Then I pick EU

And no, he's wrong. It's just an argument from the anti EU...
I'm not falling for that.

That has to be the most openly stupid reason for rejecting any argument I have seen so far.
And having been in this section since it's conception, I have seen a big pile of crap. This has to be one of the worst.

Thanks I guess.


For my case, that's probably one of silliest things I EVER heard in my life to chose either to be french or European.

[Kit-Fox]

Its not anti anything. While I am no fan of the EU I dont care which you choose Pops

You choose to be loyal to the EU fine thats your choice.

But you cannot also be loyal to France.

The EU & France have different goals/aims/wants/needs than each other.

Therefore you can only be loyal to one of them

EDIT: as Radiance said, you can only serve one master at any one time (well if your being loyal that is)

[Legendary Apophis]

Its not anti anything. While I am no fan of the EU I dont care which you choose Pops

You choose to be loyal to the EU fine thats your choice.

But you cannot also be loyal to France.

The EU & France have different goals/aims/wants/needs than each other.

Therefore you can only be loyal to one of them

EDIT: as Radiance said, you can only serve one master at any one time (well if your being loyal that is)

Then, same can be said for UK and its regions like England Scotland etc...

[Juliette]

Its not anti anything. While I am no fan of the EU I dont care which you choose Pops

You choose to be loyal to the EU fine thats your choice.

But you cannot also be loyal to France.

The EU & France have different goals/aims/wants/needs than each other.

Therefore you can only be loyal to one of them

EDIT: as Radiance said, you can only serve one master at any one time (well if your being loyal that is)

Then, same can be said for UK and its regions like England Scotland etc...

*sigh* It IS like that for the UK..
With the exception that the Acts of Union have been in effect for several hundred years, and STILL you have it.

[Kit-Fox]

but there arent any other nations in Britian, there is only Britian.

Scotland & Wales stopped existing as countries in their own rights the moment they signed a piece of paper known as the 'Act of the Union'

Those names now only exist as regional titles

EDIT: although there are what could be considered 'racial tensions' as it were.