Genetral EU discussion.

[[KMA]Avenger]

the reason behind this topic is solely so i can understand your point of view with regards to the EU, NOT to pick a fight, lecture you (or anyone else), or to tell you how evil it is or anything like that.
and the last thing i want is for you to take it as a personal attack and get upset



so, why is the EU so important to you?

why do we even need the EU?

what good comes out of the EU from your point of view, thereby justifying the HUGE sums of money it takes to run the EU?

wouldn't the money spent on running the EU be put to better use in helping our industries, farmers and economies recover from the global recession, instead of paying bureaucrats to do...what??

most of the laws that are passed in our respective countries now comes out of Brussels and made by people who we have not elected or even know their names...are you ok with that?

the EU constitution overrides and indeed trumps ALL of the member states constitutions, bill of rights...you think that is fair or right??

it seems to me that if France was swallowed whole by the EU and ceased to be, you would be totally cool with it...is that correct or am i mistaken?

[Legendary Apophis]

the reason behind this topic is solely so i can understand your point of view with regards to the EU, NOT to pick a fight, lecture you (or anyone else), or to tell you how evil it is or anything like that.
and the last thing i want is for you to take it as a personal attack and get upset



so, why is the EU so important to you?

why do we even need the EU?

what good comes out of the EU from your point of view, thereby justifying the HUGE sums of money it takes to run the EU?

wouldn't the money spent on running the EU be put to better use in helping our industries, farmers and economies recover from the global recession, instead of paying bureaucrats to do...what??

most of the laws that are passed in our respective countries now comes out of Brussels and made by people who we have not elected or even know their names...are you ok with that?

the EU constitution overrides and indeed trumps ALL of the member states constitutions, bill of rights...you think that is fair or right??

it seems to me that if France was swallowed whole by the EU and ceased to be, you would be totally cool with it...is that correct or am i mistaken?

First of all, I am *not* the only person on Earth to take this stance. Just to remind everyone I'm not some isolated "fanatic".

Why is EU important? Because some people feel to be part of a community. I feel I'm European before being French. Doesn't mean I don't care about France (have a look at sports section )!
Because I feel isolated in France, I dislike being trapped into countries self sufficient and ignoring each others. Guess that's a leftover of the let's all be united around the world. I just realized it cannot work with whole world. Also, Europe has a common history and culture. We share many things, and it's always easier to be with people of same culture as less misunderstandings happen, and you feel you have common habits and all. Europe of nation[alism]s proved to be unadapted totally with the above. It's closed borders and we feel like country next door is an alien, despite obvious similarities shared. This caused WW1 more or less.

Why do we even need the EU? Answered above. We need an official uniting entity otherwise nationalisms would make sure to counter it.

As for the rest I'm sorry I don't have to answer it, by tommorow I will have no net due to real life problems, cannot spend too much time on debate section. Above is best I can do within allowed time.

[[KMA]Avenger]

First of all, I am *not* the only person on Earth to take this stance. Just to remind everyone I'm not some isolated "fanatic".

first of all, i or anyone else would be pretty stupid or less than honest to assume you are.

Why is EU important? Because some people feel to be part of a community.

that doesn't answer the question, and quite frankly, you are part of a community of the country known as France AND the human race as a whole, why do you need a bunch of self righteous, self important unelected European Bureaucrats to make you feel warm and snug?

I feel I'm European before being French. Doesn't mean I don't care about France (have a look at sports section )!

i would never assume you didn't care about France....having said that, i wouldn't repeat those words to any WW2 survivors! do you even realise what you have just said? how can you even have that kind of conviction? what do you base that conviction on?

Because I feel isolated in France, I dislike being trapped into countries self sufficient and ignoring each others.

isolated in what way? how can you say that with all our modern means of communication and cheap travel?

Guess that's a leftover of the let's all be united around the world. I just realized it cannot work with whole world. Also, Europe has a common history and culture. We share many things, and it's always easier to be with people of same culture as less misunderstandings happen, and you feel you have common habits and all. Europe of nation[alism]s proved to be unadapted totally with the above. It's closed borders and we feel like country next door is an alien, despite obvious similarities shared. This caused WW1 more or less.

i really fail to see how you could have come up with all these beliefs and feelings we have shared history but that doesn't mean we have shared culture. are you seriously telling me that Britain and France, or Spain and Greece, or Germany and Holland have the same culture or even habits?
Jim, i dont take you for a fool, so please dont take me for 1. there are parts of ALL European countries which have differing cultures, customs and habits from 1 part to the other. England for example, the north and south are VERY different in culture and customs.

Why do we even need the EU? Answered above.

you haven't answered anything yet! all you have given me is your opinions and beliefs and fears. do better and help me to understand please.

We need an official uniting entity otherwise nationalisms would make sure to counter it.

what's that supposed to mean? are you saying that nobody else is allowed to have an opinion with regards to the EU?

As for the rest I'm sorry I don't have to answer it, by tommorow I will have no net due to real life problems, cannot spend too much time on debate section. Above is best I can do within allowed time.

[Legendary Apophis]

First of all, I am *not* the only person on Earth to take this stance. Just to remind everyone I'm not some isolated "fanatic".

first of all, i or anyone else would be pretty stupid or less than honest to assume you are.

Why is EU important? Because some people feel to be part of a community.

that doesn't answer the question, and quite frankly, you are part of a community of the country known as France AND the human race as a whole, why do you need a bunch of self righteous, self important unelected European Bureaucrats to make you feel warm and snug?

Because I don't feel like France is so different to others and I don't fall into the "others on our borders are foreigners they are too different and they don't like us anyway". As for the human race community, it's an utopia. Human race in its roots seeks conflicts and therefore united earth is only possible in movies for now.

I feel I'm European before being French. Doesn't mean I don't care about France (have a look at sports section )!

i would never assume you didn't care about France....having said that, i wouldn't repeat those words to any WW2 survivors! do you even realise what you have just said? how can you even have that kind of conviction? what do you base that conviction on?
Ever heard of the "the last of the last" (unsure about translating) motto after WW1? Think about it, confront it with what I said and what happend after WW1, and you will get it!

Because I feel isolated in France, I dislike being trapped into countries self sufficient and ignoring each others.

isolated in what way? how can you say that with all our modern means of communication and cheap travel?
You know what I mean...

Guess that's a leftover of the let's all be united around the world. I just realized it cannot work with whole world. Also, Europe has a common history and culture. We share many things, and it's always easier to be with people of same culture as less misunderstandings happen, and you feel you have common habits and all. Europe of nation[alism]s proved to be unadapted totally with the above. It's closed borders and we feel like country next door is an alien, despite obvious similarities shared. This caused WW1 more or less.

i really fail to see how you could have come up with all these beliefs and feelings we have shared history but that doesn't mean we have shared culture. are you seriously telling me that Britain and France, or Spain and Greece, or Germany and Holland have the same culture or even habits?
Jim, i dont take you for a fool, so please dont take me for 1. there are parts of ALL European countries which have differing cultures, customs and habits from 1 part to the other. England for example, the north and south are VERY different in culture and customs.
Come on...that's ridiculous. Are you going to tell me that France culture is as different to Netherlands' and Austria's as Israel's is to Uzbekistan's or Malaysia's? You REALLY have a TWISTED view of things if you would say yes. It's QUITE easier for me to understand (and comply if needed) to Italian's or Spanish's culture than to one in the opposite side of the world. Even if those quite different cultures are to be in our countries: an immigrated person from subsaharia living in France who didn't "assimilate" French/European cultures, I would feel less "similar" to him/her than to a random "average" Italian or German person (who has culture of its country).

Why do we even need the EU? Answered above.

you haven't answered anything yet! all you have given me is your opinions and beliefs and fears. do better and help me to understand please.
Given what you said about European cultures, I don't even want to spend time tryin to explain that one to you. It's pointless.

We need an official uniting entity otherwise nationalisms would make sure to counter it.

what's that supposed to mean? are you saying that nobody else is allowed to have an opinion with regards to the EU?
The "dark side" most of time prevails because it's more agressive and stubborn. EU limits possibilities to have another Hitler or Mussolini rising up.

As for the rest I'm sorry I don't have to answer it, by tommorow I will have no net due to real life problems, cannot spend too much time on debate section. Above is best I can do within allowed time.

[Juliette]

G, we DO have a shared culture, just on a more abstract level as you're thinking right now. Europe, as in "the Old World" has a distinct set of cultural values that are common among European cultures, but uncommon among other cultures.

It's like saying Latin and French are alike.
They're extremely different, if you look at each single word.
Looking at the structure of the languages though, you will see sufficient similarities to call them 'alike'. Basically, all you're saying is Latin and French are more alike as Latin and German, for example. Don't quote me on the example, look at the principle behind it.



Birds.
Birds are more alike to each other as they are to fish, obviously.
It's easy to recognise an eagle, a hawk, an ostrich.. all birds, but distinct and separate species.


European cultures are all different, from Northern England to Southern England, to Romania, to Norway, to Greece.. of course they are different. Geographical isolation, relatively weak migration, strong dominant neighbouring cultures.. all affect a unique culture. But that set of cultures, found within the geographical unit of Europe, shares more commonalities with each other as they do with cultures on other continents. As such, the metaculture is European. Within that group are sufficient differences to see different cultures, and no one says that superimposing a European metaculture makes any of those different cultures within the group less unique.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i understand we have a shared history and migrants bring their culture/way of life/ customs and beliefs thereby spreading it far and wide, but that's not what i'm talking about. there are root customs indigenous to ALL country's which are not shared among all and never will be.

anyways, i',m trying to understand why we need the EU and nobody has even come close to answering that single question or any of the others i have posed.
i REALLY am trying to understand why people feel the need for such an organisation when we can do everything the EU does and save a shed load of money and dont have to give up any of our rights to unelected morons in the process....

do you guys have any idea how much the EU is costing the UK tax payer and economy? and for what? we get absolutely nothing in return...well...that's not 100% true...we get a crap load of bureaucrats and laws which we had no say in-in exchange for 100's of millions of £'s if not billions every year, and STILL no referendum as was promised to the British people in the 70's and every decade after....

as i said, i'm still waiting for good enough justification for the EU's existence and why we need it.

[Legendary Apophis]

i understand we have a shared history and migrants bring their culture/way of life/ customs and beliefs thereby spreading it far and wide, but that's not what i'm talking about. there are root customs indigenous to ALL country's which are not shared among all and never will be.

anyways, i',m trying to understand why we need the EU and nobody has even come close to answering that single question or any of the others i have posed.
i REALLY am trying to understand why people feel the need for such an organisation when we can do everything the EU does and save a shed load of money and dont have to give up any of our rights to unelected morons in the process....

do you guys have any idea how much the EU is costing the UK tax payer and economy? and for what? we get absolutely nothing in return...well...that's not 100% true...we get a crap load of bureaucrats and laws which we had no say in-in exchange for 100's of millions of £'s if not billions every year, and STILL no referendum as was promised to the British people in the 70's and every decade after....

as i said, i'm still waiting for good enough justification for the EU's existence and why we need it.

You just refuse to see them.
It's like a member of far left party asking for good justification(s) to capitalism.
Biased since the start, thus claiming nothing justifies it, conveniently avoiding justifications proposed given they don't fit his ideas.

You didn't make this topic to get answers, you made this topic to try to prove EU is all bad and nothing justifies it.

[[KMA]Avenger]

sigh...read over every post in the thread and show me where the justification for the EU is...i'm keeping an open mind but i dont see it anywhere yet...


maybe i'm stupid?!

[Legendary Apophis]

sigh...read over every post in the thread and show me where the justification for the EU is...i'm keeping an open mind but i dont see it anywhere yet...


maybe i'm stupid?!

You just don't want to see it.
Because it doesn't fit with what would be justification for you.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i'm telling you that i have read it and that its not there, not that i cant see it...

that's like telling me that someone's been murdered but you dont know who, you dont have a body, murder weapon, motive, no suspect or crime scene or evidence of any kind and yet you want me to think there is...


where is it?


maybe someone else can point it out for me please?!

[Juliette]

Quotes Jay-Z: "Now you know how we feel.."

[Brdavs]

It`s impossible to answer your question since you`re determined to not see any good in it whatsoever.


I`ll just go by the track record. In the last 60 odd years, europe as a continent has enjoyed a period of peace and prosperity unpararelled since pax romana. If you cant see the value of that then that`s a malfunction on your end.

New generations are being brought up without the hate, merely 2 generations after the last pan-european conflict. People are looking forward towards a common brighter future instead of the past and future of rivalry. And binding together might one day get us from under the US thumb, albeit without the 51st state.

I`m of the belief that much like city states, feudalism etc., strict nationalism and national states will run their corse and in due time pass on the batton to something better for humanity as a whole. The evolution continues gentlemen.

[[KMA]Avenger]

It`s impossible to answer your question since you`re determined to not see any good in it whatsoever.


I`ll just go by the track record. In the last 60 odd years, europe as a continent has enjoyed a period of peace and prosperity unpararelled since pax romana. If you cant see the value of that then that`s a malfunction on your end.

New generations are being brought up without the hate, merely 2 generations after the last pan-european conflict. People are looking forward towards a common brighter future instead of the past and future of rivalry. And binding together might one day get us from under the US thumb, albeit without the 51st state.

I`m of the belief that much like city states, feudalism etc., strict nationalism and national states will run their corse and in due time pass on the batton to something better for humanity as a whole. The evolution continues gentlemen.

FINALLY!!!

@pops and Radiance, this is what i was asking you guys but it seems i was not clear enough in asking a simple question or it went over your heads because your to busy rolling your eyes at the question and filling your heads with preconceived answers simply because you know that i dont agree with the concept of the EU...



@Brdavs, while i agree that the things Europe has enjoyed over the past 60+ years are a good thing, could we not have just as easily achieved all that (and more) without the need for such an institution thereby saving us all a MASSIVE amount of money? i have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that with the right leadership we could do.

i'm not against being friendly and in some way, united with our neighbours, i just feel we can do it without the EU and the MASSIVE fraud, corruption, lies and bureaucracy that comes with it.

i still fail to see the 1thing that justifies the EU...what i'm saying so even pops and radiance can understand...we can do all the EU has/is doing and much more, and do it better...show me the 1 thing the EU has done to justify its existence...get it?

[Juliette]

Naturally. Us of limited brainpower could not possibly fathom the depths, relevance, justification or context of politics.
It is such a shame..

[Brdavs]

I could get into the abstracts of how the common market & legislature helps our businesses, how farm subsidies help keep our landscape cultivated in the face of cheaper produce from abroad, about how structural funds help underdeveloped regions, about how we have together the biggest economy on the planet, almost as big as the US and china combined & yet produce only 10% of worlds pollution wheras the above mentioned chalk up more than half of the rest & how common legislature helped get us this far, how its directing funds towards research and education etc. etc. but that`s prolly too abstract.

I`ll give you a couple examples instead.



I live in a small sized city in a country that is a net payer into the EU budget (unlkike the UK lolz). And has to work hard to brake somewhat even by making projects entiteled to funds.

In the past few years, from the top of my head: the local hospital is having its surgery wing demolished and rebuilt in a modern fashion - partly financed by EU funds. The bridge next to which our house is located got rebuilt - partly financed by EU funds. They`re builting a network of walkways and bycicle roads to connect all the major settlements in our valley & to hook them up to the regional infrastructure of this kind. They`re laying optical fibers to more outlaying locations. They built a recycle plant and a waste disposal center on the outskirts of town. All partly financed by EU funds. They`re using EU funds to rebuild the city theatre and enlarge it, revitalize the old city center and a dozen other projects, all because we`ll be the culture capitol of the EU in 2012. They opened the first section of the northern bypass circumventing traffic just the other month, again, funded partially by the EU.

Schools I`ve attended in another city have activly participated in the erasmus exchange and I`ve been roomates with a polak & a portugal. Every monday a different nationality organizes a theme party in the club next to my dorm, last up that I attended were the romanians, and let me tell you, they chug with the best of them heh...

So I`m sitting here typing and through my window I can litterary see and feel the tangible good that comes out of the EU.
Sure it has buerocracy behind it, but that`s to be expected when you deal with large summs of money that is litterary being collected to be mostly refunneled into other projects. Its a juggling act. A country pays in and then an ammount is made available for projects that meet the criteria.
It encourages countries to invest in projects of a certain type and helps them achieve them where otherwise they wouldnt be able to - and the money would go for I dunno, bank bailouts lol.

What tangible bad have you to point at?