Genetral EU discussion.

[Kit-Fox]

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[Brdavs]

But you DO have the rebate, dont you. Which makes UK a net recipient. And you cant in good conscience point at numbers "without the rebate" cos they were negotiated together, if the rebate were to be renegotiated, so would the CAP be.
(And dont get me wrong, I do believe that too much gets spent on agriculture. Some of those funds should be reallocated to other projects yet it cant be denied that CAP is necessary since we`re all kinda inefficient in that area and thus need to act to protect the industry.)

But ultimatly the UK problem with EU is the UK itself. You get the rebate but that money practically goes to your government, so the latter as a consequence has less incentive to support you to apply for EU funds - since 2/3 of them alloted to any project will go from the rebate (2/3 that would otherwise go to your gvmt.). Evybody else operates like I said for my country so the gvmt. has a big incentive to support you in your project.

EU helps my community build infrastructure and develp itself and dangles a carrot infront of the state to hold a carrot infront of yours and lead you by the hand, the UK exception funds go largly god knows where, afghanistan maybe heh. But that`s not the EUs fault is it.

[Kit-Fox]

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[Brdavs]

It comes down to the fact UK is under the line a net gainer after the rebate is calculated in.

UK and Ireland were amongst the poorest when they joined up and are amongst the richest today, and not only due to new members joining. So clearly something worked for you.



Now he asked what EU does to validate its existance and I listed all the things I can personally witness to, nvm gains I can point at abstractly.

The buerocracy is taking my goverments money and handing it back out for projects that will benefit me as an induvidual as opposed having the state spend it on god knows what. If I elected smart people they`ll hussle and make projects and get as much of it back as possible - and be left with the "positive sideffects"... It`s positive reinforced incentive to develop.

And when I asked what tangible bad he can list all I get is complaining about the amount of paperwork and the apparent injustice against the UK that results in you being a net gainer and a victim at the same time? Seems to me that a rebate was a valid correction of the matter. So the french get twice as much for agriculture that (CAP) nowadays represents, what 40% of the entire budget (unlike when the EU started out at 80%+), + you get compensated for your undeprivelaged position in terms of a smaller farming sector.
What about all the rest?

What is trully bad that you can point at like I did?

[Kit-Fox]

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[Brdavs]

If I`m mistaken I appologize but from the last time I dwelled on this topic I seem to remember it thus. Could be mighty old or wrongly remembered info thoe heh.

And it does vary from theory to practice aswell. States that have a surplus of funds available in theory in practice often fail to "use" them and are net payers instead of gainers.


But either way, it could be argued that the common market benefits far outweigh any yearly fiscal saldos in the budgets. I mean it has to, why else would countries like germany stay?
Do the crouts strike you as the charitable types lol?

Other than that, what`s the actual harm of it? I cant think of one negative effect, other than a lesser degree of positivie effect when compared to others. But less "gut" =/= bad, just less of good heh.

So how has EU negativly affected your life as an induvidual?


Edit: checked and I was indeed wrong about the net gain/loss thing, I appologize heh. Still, other than that, I feel my point still stands.

[Kit-Fox]

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[[KMA]Avenger]

Naturally. Us of limited brainpower could not possibly fathom the depths, relevance, justification or context of politics.
It is such a shame..

instead of being witty and to clever, wouldn't it have been better to have tried to understand from the start where i was coming from on this one, kept an open mind, give me the benefit of the doubt, and engage me in a civil and adult discussion?

I could get into the abstracts of how the common market & legislature helps our businesses, how farm subsidies help keep our landscape cultivated in the face of cheaper produce from abroad, about how structural funds help underdeveloped regions, about how we have together the biggest economy on the planet, almost as big as the US and china combined & yet produce only 10% of worlds pollution wheras the above mentioned chalk up more than half of the rest & how common legislature helped get us this far, how its directing funds towards research and education etc. etc. but that`s prolly too abstract.

I`ll give you a couple examples instead.



I live in a small sized city in a country that is a net payer into the EU budget (unlkike the UK lolz). And has to work hard to brake somewhat even by making projects entiteled to funds.

In the past few years, from the top of my head: the local hospital is having its surgery wing demolished and rebuilt in a modern fashion - partly financed by EU funds. The bridge next to which our house is located got rebuilt - partly financed by EU funds. They`re builting a network of walkways and bycicle roads to connect all the major settlements in our valley & to hook them up to the regional infrastructure of this kind. They`re laying optical fibers to more outlaying locations. They built a recycle plant and a waste disposal center on the outskirts of town. All partly financed by EU funds. They`re using EU funds to rebuild the city theatre and enlarge it, revitalize the old city center and a dozen other projects, all because we`ll be the culture capitol of the EU in 2012. They opened the first section of the northern bypass circumventing traffic just the other month, again, funded partially by the EU.

Schools I`ve attended in another city have activly participated in the erasmus exchange and I`ve been roomates with a polak & a portugal. Every monday a different nationality organizes a theme party in the club next to my dorm, last up that I attended were the romanians, and let me tell you, they chug with the best of them heh...

So I`m sitting here typing and through my window I can litterary see and feel the tangible good that comes out of the EU.
Sure it has buerocracy behind it, but that`s to be expected when you deal with large summs of money that is litterary being collected to be mostly refunneled into other projects. Its a juggling act. A country pays in and then an ammount is made available for projects that meet the criteria.
It encourages countries to invest in projects of a certain type and helps them achieve them where otherwise they wouldnt be able to - and the money would go for I dunno, bank bailouts lol.

What tangible bad have you to point at?

ok, there's a few posts after this one from you mate (obviously) but KF has done a descent job of replying to them, so no need to go over the same ground.

with regards to the above....

so let me get this straight (yes i'm going to generalize but the point will still stand), everyone puts in a VAST amount of money and in exchange we get the wealth distributed to the poorer countries to build them up, and none of the projects and public works you have listed above couldn't have otherwise been achieved?


this isnt covered in the scope of this thread but i'd still to make the point...

if we printed our own and we had Govt we could trust, they would print money in accordance with demand to keep the money stable, and invest it in great public works and services thereby solving unemployment and the economy, and all of that done without the EU. on top of that, even the poorest and smallest country's of the union could the same. that maybe an oversimplification but the point still stands.

so in short, i still dont see the one thing that makes the EU a necessity instead of a burden.

and furthermore, from what i see and read, the EU has created more problems than it has solved....a few examples in anyone country still doesn't warrant the EU's existence...god knows how we managed before the EU

[Juliette]

Naturally. Us of limited brainpower could not possibly fathom the depths, relevance, justification or context of politics.
It is such a shame..

instead of being witty and to clever, wouldn't it have been better to have tried to understand from the start where i was coming from on this one, kept an open mind, give me the benefit of the doubt, and engage me in a civil and adult discussion?

Oh, too clever? I am just me, nothing clever about that. I am so sorry. Shall I go and ask the hospital for a lobotomy? Maybe then I'll go smack the pope too. I feel so left out..

I bloody well know where you're coming from, G, but I am not going to sit around the campfire chanting kumbaya because of it.. I am too busy rolling my eyes at your question.

[Brdavs]

@avenger:
In exchange you get acces to a common market and the money is primarily distributed between purposes, not just countries. It forces certain types of investments and encourages them across the board.


How did you manage before the EU on the islands? Forgive me my bluntness, but not particulary well.
You were (both) amongst the poorest of the founding members, bottom two or three infact.

So again, how have you (on any level) been "worse off" or is your thesis that "we dont need and never did need nobody for nothing" the usual mantra you`re gonna fall back to?

It`s capitalism, we exchange goods for mutual profit.
Some give euros into the budget and others take from it, and at the same time, those others sell the first cheap halfproducts, for the germans to work their magic on, and then sell them their finish products back.
We all use UK as the financial center, more or less, & the frenchies grow us a lot of food and store our nuclear waste.
This is all caricatured, but it shows interdependancy and mutual benefit that the EU represents. So you cant just point at one thing and say that you`d do better on yourown because in all honesty you couldnt. It`s modern economics 101 in which protectionism and nationalistic selfsufficiency draws the proverbial short straw in the world where you`re competing with economies like the US & china that themselves engulf a good portion of a continent and a truck load of people.

So again, do you think ze germans are in the EU and the biggest budget contributor cos they`re charitable, or because the benefits in all other areas more than make up for it?

[Kit-Fox]

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[Brdavs]

I`m not gonna get in a nationalistic urinating match here, I leave that to the islanders since you love it so.

I stated statistical facts that you can go check for yourself, when UK & Ireland joined they were comperativly poor. So clearly something worked. And 60 years ago we were all in ruins and Germany is making the last reparation payments this year, now that you mention it.

Just answer the last paragraph.

If all my first hand benefits are to be discounted or turned as an argument against - due to redistribution of wealth phobia - then why exactly are the germans, french, itallian etc. bothering with this?
Suerly enough why is UK, if its indeed so clear cut and simple and so evil/disadvantageous?
Cos of the illusive "elites" that like all expenses payed trips to the continent lol? Riiiight.

[Kit-Fox]

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[[KMA]Avenger]

maybe its just me (call me dumb) BUT, i'm still falling way short of the mark here. KF is 100% correct in what he says.

from your point of view Brvdas (not forgetting pops), the EU is a wonderful thing, hooray for you and your country, but the UK gets sod all out of the EU, and its not just the UK, so we can dispel the taking sides issue in this.
and i'm still waiting for the 1 thing that makes the EU worth having, not just for my sake or the UK's, but all of ours.

the point has been missed that any one single nation can if the will and brains are present-raise themselves up without the use of force or conquest, and without the need of outside interference. this is a historical fact.
what's not taught in schools is why someone like Julius Caesar was murdered. the man took back the money supply which was in the hands of the goldsmiths, and with his new found wealth ordered the construction of the Colosseum and many other public works. by that method he spent money into the economy and was very much loved by the people of Rome. for that reason alone the man could have declared himself a god and the people would have loved him even more.
now, i understand that Rome wasn't the smallest economy on the block or some backwater country. still, he proved that good old human ingenuity, some good old honest courage and leadership can go a long way.
another such point is the good ol US of A. in the space of just a couple hundred years, they had become the worlds largest economy for the simple reason, they were free and most of the brains of Europe went there.

i know i'm deviating slightly but the point is clear with regards to the EU and any economic benefit we get from it. its been done in the past and we can do it again if needs be.

so, if we can manage our economy, modernisations and public works and services just fine, that leaves trade agreements and economic migrations. if each member country of the EU manages its economy free from bankers and bureaucrats...why would anyone want to migrate for economic reasons?
and as for trade agreements...are our leaders not capable of sitting round a table and hammering out trade agreements?

do you see what i'm getting at? everything the EU does can be done without the EU if the will is there to do it.

i would be VERY interested to see the total figures of how much the EU rakes in, and what it gives out, and to whom, you can bet your bottom dollar that it does not give out 100% (or even close to 100%) of what it takes (obviously).

[Juliette]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_ ... e_analysis


[spoiler][/spoiler]
5 ^ a b c d Open Europe briefing note: European Communities (Finance) Bill, 2007-11-16, http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/budget07.pdf, retrieved 2008-07-07 accessed via this page on the website of "Open Europe"
6 ^ a b European Commission > Eurostat home page > Data navigation tree > Population and social conditions > Population > Total population, http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal ... 1/caa10000, retrieved 2008-07-07 accessed via this page on Eurostat





UK is Europe's **Filtered**, along with Germany and a few others.