Israel... what do you think?

[R8]

i despise israel for what they are doing. actually i despise any country or people who opress and sorround a small minority of people with walls and imprison them within them. all this is doing is brewing more and more hatred towards each other. rightful owners of the land well both sides can claim ownership of that dating back thousands of years. in my opinion its a place were bothsides should be able to share and live amongst each other. the divison created by different beliefs does not justify the common aspects they share such as being human beings and the right to live and be free.

[Hitchkok]

okay, as previously promised, here is an elaborate history lesson.
it is quite lengthy (as history lessons tend to be), and quite pointless (as I will explain in a moment). so please, unless you are a scholar of middle eastern history or severely uninformed (or misinformed) in the matter, feel absolutely free not to read it.
first, here is what the Bible tell us:
[spoiler]the first hebrew settelment in the contemporary land of israel (then known as canaan) was the family of Avram (later known as Avraham (Aberaham)). in the words of the Bible (all excerpts from the Bible are my translation from the original hebrew text, so don't throw a king james' Bible at me and claim misqoute) "And God said to Avram, go from your land, your place of birth, your father's home, to the land that i will show you". (intrestingly, Aberaham's land, place of birth, father's home, was contemporary Iraq. so by Avenger's reasoning Iraq belongs to the Jews...).
the land that God showed to Aberaham was canaan. specieficly, a place beetwen Be'er sheva and Hebron. Aberaham later purchesed a cave (the cave of patriarchs) from Ephron the hittite to serve as burial grounds for him and he's family. for the cave he paid 400 silver Shekels (Shekel is an ancient measurment of weight).
Aberaham was very prosperous. his son Yitzhak (Isaac) inherited him, and Isaac's son Yaakov (Jacob), later Known as Israel, inherited him.
throughout these two generations their family and servents lived in canaan.
Jacob's second-youngest son, Yosef (Joseph), was sold to slavery by his elder brothers, and was then sold to a minister in the court of Pharoe. he became to be the Pharoe's right hand man.
a seven years' famine hit the middle east. only Egypt, under Joseph's management, has managed to store enough food. Joseph's 11 brothers came to egypt to buy supplies. they met Joseph, who convinced them to stay. those 12 brothers (including Joseph) were given the land of Goshen by the Pharoe. they flourished, and became noumerous.
this is all told in Genesis.

Centuries have pass in Egypt, and a new Pharoe ruled, who did not know of Joseph. he was worried the Israelites, now 12 tribes, named after the original 12 Brothers, would join his enemys in case of war. he therfore decided to enslave the israelites and later kill every male born. a women named Yochebed has secreted her son in a reed boat, and sent him on the nile, to avoid certain death. He was found by the Pharoe's daughter, who named him Moshe (Moses).
Moshe later came to lead the israelites in their rebellion against the Pharoe.
they were freed, and escaped through the desert to the land of their ancestors.
this is all told in Exodus.

after a 40 years travel in the desert, the israelites came to the land of Canaan. at this point, Moses died, on the top of mount Nevo, overlooking (but not entering), the promised land. he was succeded by Yhosua Ben-Nun, which was a military leader.

now, this is where it gets interesting, since from now on we have archeological and historical proofs of the following.
the land of canaan was inhbited by several tribes (the Bible lists the emories, the hittites, the edomies and several other). there were mostly nomadic tribes, and some poleis (city-states), such as Jericho and Ay. there was no unified state and government.
the Israelites conquered the land by force. they then divided the land into 12 independent provinces, each with it's own rule and government, unified by a common faith.
here is a picture of the provinces
this is told in leviticus, numbers and Deuteronomy.

the israelites requested God to appoint a King. he appointed Shaul, who was king of all israelites. this is the first evidence of a unified government in Canaan, rather than poleis or a patriarchal tribal rule.
Sahul was succeded by David. David's son, Shlomo (Solomon) built the first temple, which was the focal point of Israely lives, during his reign.
the temple stood for 420 years, and was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar II, king of Babylon. the israelites were exiled to Babylon.
this is all told in Kings.

during this exile, the israelites (mostly decendants of the Juda tribe, and hence, Jews) continuesly prayed and hoped to return to Zion (which denotes both the entire land of Israel, and Jerusalem). this is the origin of the verse which appears in Psalms "on the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and there we wept, remembering Zion" ("al neharot bavel, sham yashavnu gam bachinu, bezochrenu et Zion").
the babilonian exile lasted for about fifty years. it ended when Koresh (Cyrus), a persian emperor that came to rule the middle east, released the proclemation of Koresh, recorded on the cyrus cilinder. this proclemation (which can be seen today at the british museum in london) procalims freedom of faith to all in his empire, in their homelands. this included the exiled Jews in Babilon, who where allowed to return to Zion and re-erect the temple.
the proclamation of Koresh is cited in Ezra, in chronicles, and is the ending verse of the Jewish Canon.[/spoiler]
next, ancient historical texts:
[spoiler]the Jews returned to Zion and built the second temple. it stood for about 500 years. in 68 AC, a Jewish rebellion broke out against the roman empire, which ruled the land, and named it Iudaea Province. following the rebellion, the temple was destroyed by Titus, a roman emperor. following later rebelions, the last of which was in 132, most of the Jewish people were exiled, and the province was renamed syria palestina, to dissociate it with the Jewish people.
this is chronicled in the dead sea scrolls, and in the writings of Josephus[/spoiler]

next, followed an 1800 years long exile (during which only small communities of Jews lived in the land of Israel), which end is modern history.
[spoiler]throughout the dark ages the land of Israel, and mainly Jerusalem, was the scene of the crusade. the 1900's dawned on an ottoman empire rule in the land of Israel, named Ottoman sirya. this rule ended after the first world war, when britain and france were given a mandate over the levant by the league of nations (the predeccessor of the UN), a mandate they divided amongst themselves in the Sykes-pikot agreement. the mandate was to govern the land, until it can be governed by the people to whom it belongs. from the outset of the mandate, it was realised that the land would have to be divided beetwen the Jews and the arabs. several partitions were suggested, such as the peel commission suggestion. finally, on the 29th november 1947, the UN voted and accepted the current suggestion, named "the partition plan". a day after the vote, Arab riots begun, killing and woundin Jewish innocents. on may 14 1948, a day before the british mandate expired, the Jewish leaders announced the state of Israel, in the borders Voted upon by the UN. the Arab leaders did not accept the partition plan, and attacked the Jewish settelments. what insued is known as the israely war of independence. at the end of the war, the state of israel reppeled the aggressors (which included expedition forces from Syria, Iraq Egypt, and the Hashmic kingdom of Jordan), and managed to secure further land. when truce was declared, the borders of Israel included the contemporary Borders of Israel, excluding the Golan heights, which was under syrian rule, the west bank, which was annexed to the hashmic kingdom of Jordan, and the Gaza strip, which was under Egypt military rule. no new arab state was declared.
i'll state it again: at the truce, both the Gaza strip and the west bank was under Arab rule. yet, no palestinian state was declared.
during the next 60 years there were two major wars (the 1967 six day war, and the 1973 yom kippur war), and three minor ones (the 1956 Kadesh campaign, the 1982 lebanon war, and the 2006 second lebanon war). during these wars Israel conquered the sinay peninsula (in the kadesh campaign, AND in the six days war), and returned it to egypt, annexed the Golan heights (in the yom kippur war), which is considered a strategic vantage point, and placed the Gaza strip and the west bank under martial law. Israel accepted the palestinian right to self definition, and enabled a palestinian autonomy, under the government of the PLO. israel upholds a constant regime of military actions in those territories, following a large number of suicide bombings. these regime has proven to be the only effective means of preventing terrorism in israel.
in 2005 Israel withdrew all civil settelments and military forces from the Gaza strip. the Hammas was elected by Gaza citizens to govern Gaza.
today, Israel supplies Gaza with electricity, fuel, food, medication and other needs. in return, Israely cities are constantly bombarded.
Both the Hammas and PLO cite the destruction of the state of Israel as one of it's main goals.[/spoiler]

having said all that (and i do believe i deserve atleast a +3 addition to my post count following that post...) here is why i believe this lesson is pointless:

First of all, I, as an israely citizen, do not feel the need to justify the fact i live here.
if all modern nations (save, perhaps, for the UK, the far east, and scandinavia) Justify THEIR rights to live in their lands, i might reconsider.

Second: Israel as a state is a fact. there is NO legal instrument by which to disperse a member of the UN. the only means is war. and unless youre advocating that, you have to accept the state of israel.

now, what you DON'T have to accept, is some of Israels policies. I would like to hear your (well written, well argued and well based, preferably) thoughts on those. as i said, this is not a debate, it is a discussion. i am not out to prove a point, i am out to hear yours.

also, I, as a citizen of Israel, will not advocate the dispersing of Israel. that is not to say i accept every Israely policie.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i'm going to forgo the history and the argument of who were the original inhabitants of the land and are therefore the true owners of the land and all that crap, because to dwell on that will mean we are here till doomsday and beyond before anyone agrees to even disagree...if you follow me?!


ANYWAYS...personally (and this will never change in my head because of the atrocities i have seen and read about), Is-Ra-El is bang out of order for the shear madness and genocide it IS inflicting on the Palestinian people such as making ambulances with injured Palestinian adults as well as babies having to wait 16+ hours at an Is-Ra-Elian checkpoint, only to have the injured party die either at the check point or DOA.

when will the Is-Ra-Elian people realize the way they are handling the situation only breeds hostility, anger and terrorists.

and lets define a Palestinian terrorist...someone whose lost his/her entire family in a bombing and decides they have nothing left to live for.
whether seeking retribution or vengeance is right or wrong is ultimately besides the point, because i can tell you with all honesty...if a bomb came throw my window for any reason and wiped my family out, i couldn't careless who i kill as long as i kill a member of the guilty race.
and that's the problem here, a bomb kills a few Palestinians, someone straps themselves up with a bomb and kills a bunch of Is-Ra-Elians and so the Is-Ra-Elians bomb a few more Palestians and on and on, never ending perpetual state of war...

lets spin that around and start of with the Palestinians starting the fight...so we have a Palestinian bomber killing themselves forcing the hand of the Is-Ra-Elians, who drop a stray bomb on an innocent Palestinian, that Palestinian swears he will avenge his family and so straps a bomb to his chest and kills some Is-Ra-Elians...on and on and on it goes.

the point being, does it really matter whose land it is ultimately? does it really matter who started it?

when you have people living as the Palestinian people live, children growing up never knowing what it is to be a child and so grow up disturbed and hateful, then you have to stop and look at the situation for what it is...SHEAR AND UTTER MADNESS!


theres a saying, when people lose everything and they have nothing left to lose, they lose it!


anyways...


[spoiler]Balfour Declaration of 1917
Arthur James Balfour.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a formal statement of policy by the British government stating that

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[1]

The declaration was made in a letter from Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, a Zionist organization. The letter reflected the position of the British Cabinet, as agreed upon in a meeting on 31 October 1917. It further stated that the declaration is a sign of "sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations."

The statement was issued through the efforts of Chaim Weizmann and Nahum Sokolow, the principal Zionist leaders based in London but, as they had asked for the reconstitution of Palestine as “the” Jewish national home, the Declaration fell short of Zionist expectations.[2]

The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library.

The anniversary of the Declaration, 2 November, is widely commemorated in Israel and among Jews in the Jewish diaspora as Balfour Day.[/spoiler]


and just so you know, Is-Ra-El, is owned by the Rothschild's.

[Hitchkok]

i just like to mention that you are wrong in regard to the Rotschilds.
the Rotschilds did contribute large sums to buy lands in Israel of the inhabitants, but those sums were contributed to the Israel fund, which is a government office since 1948.
all lands in israel belongs to the government.
at least i never payed any property taxes to the Rotschilds...
the balfour declaration, as stated in your quote, was given to Walter Rotschild "for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland".
BTW, why do you spell israel Is-Ra-El?

[[KMA]Avenger]

Isis:
[spoiler]Isis was a goddess in Ancient Egyptian religious beliefs, whose worship spread throughout the Greco-Roman world. She was worshiped as the ideal mother and wife as well as the patron of nature and magic. She was the friend of slaves, sinners, artisans, the downtrodden, as well as listening to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats and rulers.[1] Isis is the Goddess of motherhood, magic and fertility.[/spoiler]


Ra:
[spoiler]Ra (also spelled Ré) is the ancient Egyptian sun god. By the fifth dynasty he became a major deity in ancient Egyptian religion, identified primarily with the mid-day sun, with other deities representing other positions of the sun. Ra changed greatly over time and in one form or another, much later he was said to represent the sun at all times of the day. The meaning of the name is uncertain, but it is thought if not a word for 'sun' it may be a variant of or linked to 'creative'.[/spoiler]


El:
[spoiler]Ēl (written aleph-lamed, i.e. אל, ����, ���� etc.) is the Northwest Semitic word for "deity", cognate to Arabic ʾilāh and Akkadian ilum.

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the Goddess Asherah as attested in the tablets of Ugarit.[2]

The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of Gods or the Father of all Gods, in the ruins of the Royal Library of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos).[/spoiler]

the star of David:

http://www.seedofabraham.net/stardavd.html


none of the above info/link is to be taken as definitive, and instead is meant for further investigation by whoever cares to learn.


oh, i should have mentioned from the outset that, while i am NOT a "Jew hater" or racist in ANY way, and i do not hold any animosity towards your people, i do hold the firm and unshakeable belief that the Israeli Govt along with the UK's and Us's Govts, the EU and the UN are amongst the most evil and sick institutions on the planet....not counting the Vatican, Freemasons, Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, club of Rome CFR, CIA...and so on.


edit:
a question for you Hitchkok, i heard some orthodox Jews demonstrating against the state of Israel, and 1 of the things they said was that the Torah explicitly states that there should be no nation called Israel.
since i didn't fancy reading the Torah to see for myself if this was true or not i asked a Jewish neighbour of mine if it was true and he said that it was and that God forbid the Jewish people a nation of their own...is this correct?

if not please expand.

[Juliette]

a question for you Hitchkok, i heard some orthodox Jews demonstrating against the state of Israel, and 1 of the things they said was that the Torah explicitly states that there should be no nation called Israel.
since i didn't fancy reading the Torah to see for myself if this was true or not i asked a Jewish neighbour of mine if it was true and he said that it was and that God forbid the Jewish people a nation of their own...is this correct?

if not please expand.

Expand? First you're telling Israel off for existing, and now, if it turns out that there is no restriction on the existence of a state of Israel in Torah, you want them to expand!?!?! Wow. I love that.
Keep going, G. This is good stuff.

[[KMA]Avenger]

now now sweety, behave yourself or there's no spanks for you

you know that's not what i meant

[Hitchkok]

Isis:
[spoiler]Isis was a goddess in Ancient Egyptian religious beliefs, whose worship spread throughout the Greco-Roman world. She was worshiped as the ideal mother and wife as well as the patron of nature and magic. She was the friend of slaves, sinners, artisans, the downtrodden, as well as listening to the prayers of the wealthy, maidens, aristocrats and rulers.[1] Isis is the Goddess of motherhood, magic and fertility.[/spoiler]


Ra:
[spoiler]Ra (also spelled Ré) is the ancient Egyptian sun god. By the fifth dynasty he became a major deity in ancient Egyptian religion, identified primarily with the mid-day sun, with other deities representing other positions of the sun. Ra changed greatly over time and in one form or another, much later he was said to represent the sun at all times of the day. The meaning of the name is uncertain, but it is thought if not a word for 'sun' it may be a variant of or linked to 'creative'.[/spoiler]


El:
[spoiler]Ēl (written aleph-lamed, i.e. אל, ����, ���� etc.) is the Northwest Semitic word for "deity", cognate to Arabic ʾilāh and Akkadian ilum.

In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Eli or Il was the supreme god,[2] the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the Goddess Asherah as attested in the tablets of Ugarit.[2]

The word El was found at the top of a list of gods as the Ancient of Gods or the Father of all Gods, in the ruins of the Royal Library of the Ebla civilization, in the archaeological site of Tell Mardikh in Syria dated to 2300 BC. He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot, each of whom has similar attributes to the Greek gods Zeus, Poseidon or Ophion and Hades or Thanatos respectively. Ancient Greek mythographers identified El with Cronus (not Chronos).[/spoiler]

the star of David:

http://www.seedofabraham.net/stardavd.html


none of the above info/link is to be taken as definitive, and instead is meant for further investigation by whoever cares to learn.


oh, i should have mentioned from the outset that, while i am NOT a "Jew hater" or racist in ANY way, and i do not hold any animosity towards your people, i do hold the firm and unshakeable belief that the Israeli Govt along with the UK's and Us's Govts, the EU and the UN are amongst the most evil and sick institutions on the planet....not counting the Vatican, Freemasons, Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, club of Rome CFR, CIA...and so on.


edit:
a question for you Hitchkok, i heard some orthodox Jews demonstrating against the state of Israel, and 1 of the things they said was that the Torah explicitly states that there should be no nation called Israel.
since i didn't fancy reading the Torah to see for myself if this was true or not i asked a Jewish neighbour of mine if it was true and he said that it was and that God forbid the Jewish people a nation of their own...is this correct?

if not please expand.

First, i like to explain a subtle nuance in language regarding your interpertation of the word Israel.
the more accurate transcription is Yisrael, since the I is read as a vowel in hebrew. Isis, the egyptian Goddes, on the other hand should be transcribed as Isis, since the I is not a vowel. the interpratation is an intresting one, but for several reasons, this being the least of them, is unbased.
there is a "midrash" in the babilonian talmud (talmud bavly) that interperts 3 similar verses in the song of songs as oaths God has sworn Israel to uphold. one of this oath is not to "rise at the wall". the hebrew word for "rise", alyiah, is also the act of immigration to Israel by Jews.
since the state of Israel encourages alyia, some Jewish schools interpret the existance of Israel as against the Talmud (NOT the torra).
these schools (and especialy the "netury karta") are today considered radical extremist.
note:
1) the talmud is not part of the canon, and the specific midrash is a legend midrash (read the wikipedia link for midrash to understand the signifigance of this).
2) throughout the Jewish history there were views accepting and denieing this interpratetion, adding terms to the canceling of this oath. one notable view is that the if the possibilty to break the oath arises, it is a sign from God it is no longer valid.

having said that, Israel is a secular state. it is a democracy, not a theocracy. it was founded (mainly) by secular organisations. Zionism is a national movement, not a religious one. I my self eat unkosher food, do not observe the Shabbath, and consider my self an atheist (although my father's family (which live in Israel) Is orthodox). I am part of the Jewish people, but not the Jewish religion.
the halacha view on the state of Israel is i-material as long as there is a large secular majority in Israel.

[[KMA]Avenger]

the Talmud...my bad

i always get them mixed up

[Hitchkok]

the Talmud...my bad

i always get them mixed up

thats like mixing the Gospels with Papal decrees....
if youre a lutheranian.

[[KMA]Avenger]

for you that is, for someone who hasn't read either, (no offence intended, and hence the reason i asked for clarification since i can only go by what others say) and doesn't care for the difference between the 2?

[Brdavs]

Without delving into the absurd "historical/religious claims" of both sides, I`ll just say that I don`t find the jewish extremism particulary better to the islamic one. Not at all.
How the opressed so fast turned opressor is also somewhat humorous to me heh. Human nature demonstrated at its finest, idealists despair heh...

Under the line, I`ll say that personally I`d only like to see Israel held accountable for all the violations of international and humanitarian law, and that list is long and violations severe. Noone in their right mind can deny elements of genocide (note that the definition of genocide is not as limited as ww2 movies portraye them) and ethnic cleansing (simmilar disclaimer) do exist. And you cant wonder "gee why are the crazy beggars doing crazy stuff" when you treat people like that and push them towards it.





Above all I`d just like some common sense applied to the ME at large. The "your radicalism promotes our radicalism" debate is a neverending circle. Now you cant get rid of either side of the problem. What you CAN do is sort out the question of occupied teritories, treatment of people there, the question of the palestinian nation/state and the status of jerusalem. Without the jewish settlements, without the concentration camp like gaza and with jerusalem under international administration of the UN (as proposed in 47) the 3 single largest catalysts of hate would be removed from the equasion and the situation would undoubtably improve.

I know someone will argue the sanctity of holly sites and the promissed land but really... /facepalm. Heck, most major religions have their most cherished sites there, it`s only fitting it`s granted a corpus separati status. And I`ll know someone will say "but the arabs main/only goal is the total destruction of the jewish state"... but you know what? It turned out not all commies wanted to kill all capitalists and vice versa either. I think its called fearmongering on both sides.
And either way, solving the above mentioned problems does not line every israeli against the wall, it can only help.

Why not solve them? There is no better reason for it than the reason terrorists cite. Shortsigthed, pigheaded & selfrighteous BS.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i agree with everything you just said (did i just say that?! ), with the exception of the UN being involved. i would suggest an independent and entirely new body be set-up...but that's not really the issue at this point in time.

the number 1 issue would be to stop the madness and restore some sort of order, which what you suggest actually address's.

great post, enjoyed reading it

[Brdavs]

I knew you`d have a problem with the UN.

but honestly I dont see a better solution. If you gave it independance I dont see how that would eliminate the compettitivnes of the two muslim/jewish populations & the friction that comes with it.

It needs a secular approach and governance which frankly neither side is able to fully provide. So pack it full of blue berets I say heh.

Either that or go by the age long "when 2 argue the 3rd profits". Give the place to the Vatican, the swiss guard can man the trenches. That`ll unite the jews and muslims lol.

[[KMA]Avenger]

lol

well, obviously a new body would need some authority (muscle so to speak), a new independent authority to impose sanctions on either side would be the best bet...IMHO.