Israel... what do you think?

[Kit-Fox]

It would have been better had the British mandate never ended, no point in crying over spilt milk though.

[Hitchkok]

Hi Brdavs, glad to have you aboard.
here are some facts to supplement your post:

Without delving into the absurd "historical/religious claims" of both sides, I`ll just say that I don`t find the jewish extremism particulary better to the islamic one. Not at all.

very true.
However, only one side has the extremists in power.

How the opressed so fast turned opressor is also somewhat humorous to me heh. Human nature demonstrated at its finest, idealists despair heh...

Under the line, I`ll say that personally I`d only like to see Israel held accountable for all the violations of international and humanitarian law, and that list is long and violations severe.

i'll be happy to see a reference to this list.
or to reliable sources bringing evidence and confirming some of this violations.

Noone in their right mind can deny elements of genocide (note that the definition of genocide is not as limited as ww2 movies portraye them) and ethnic cleansing (simmilar disclaimer) do exist. And you cant wonder "gee why are the crazy beggars doing crazy stuff" when you treat people like that and push them towards it.

I can deny elements of genocide and ethnical cleansing.
the question is: can you bring evidence to support them? or atleast, explain what elements you are refering too?

Above all I`d just like some common sense applied to the ME at large. The "your radicalism promotes our radicalism" debate is a neverending circle. Now you cant get rid of either side of the problem. What you CAN do is sort out the question of occupied teritories, treatment of people there, the question of the palestinian nation/state and the status of jerusalem. Without the jewish settlements, without the concentration camp like gaza and with jerusalem under international administration of the UN (as proposed in 47) the 3 single largest catalysts of hate would be removed from the equasion and the situation would undoubtably improve.

1) the question of the occupied territories was settled long ago. there is a Palestinian autonomy in those territories.

2) There is a Palestinian state. There are, infact, two.
One is called Gaza. They have an elected government. Their elected government is called Hamas, fires rockets at civilian targets, cites the destruction of Israel as a goal in it's charter, advocates Jihad (holy war) in it's charter (both are shown later in this post) and is recognized as a terrorist organization by the governments of the EU, the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, Japan, and several others.
The second is in the west bank. they, too have a government, called Fatah (a part of the PLO). they, too advocate the entire destruction of Israel (also shown later), and also maintain armed factions recognized as terrorists organizations.

3) the question of Jerusalem is indeed a problematic one. i can only say this: today, arabs (with or without Israely nationality) and muslims are allowed to travel and pray everywhere they like in Jerusalem. this cannot be said of Jews (again, with or without Israely nationality).

I know someone will argue the sanctity of holly sites and the promissed land but really... /facepalm. Heck, most major religions have their most cherished sites there, it`s only fitting it`s granted a corpus separati status. And I`ll know someone will say "but the arabs main/only goal is the total destruction of the jewish state"... but you know what? It turned out not all commies wanted to kill all capitalists and vice versa either. I think its called fearmongering on both sides.

Oh, but the destruction of the state of israel IS the Hamas', and PLO's goal.
and don't take my word for this, take theirs:
Hamas' charter
[spoiler]Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas:Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it...

Article Twelve: Hamas in Palestine, Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism
Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman...

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.[/spoiler]
also note, that the Hamas coat of arms displays the outline of entire Israel, simbolising it's goal to take over the entire land.

PLO charter
[spoiler]Article 2:
Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
Article 3:
The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will.[/spoiler]
note that the PLO coat of arms ALSO displays the outline of the entire state of Israel.
also note, that this article is the first one to declare a Palestinian people. it is from 1968.
the name Palestine, as i explained earlier, was given by the romans in 132 to the province formerly known as Provinkea Judea.

as for hizebollah:
the destruction of israel is indeed NOT their main goal. this is for one simple reason: Hizzebolla is not a palestinian national movement. it is a lebanese political party, and an armed underground movement.
fearmongering? maybe. please hold that thought for a moment...

And either way, solving the above mentioned problems does not line every israeli against the wall, it can only help.

about fearmongering, and lining up Israelis against the wall: you MIGHT be right. But, i'm afraid the only way to really find out is the hard way, and i really don't want to try that way.

Why not solve them? There is no better reason for it than the reason terrorists cite. Shortsigthed, pigheaded & selfrighteous BS.

yes, but by which side?
Israel negotiated for years with the Palestinian leaders. It offered larger and larger offers, for smaller and smaller returns. The Palestinian leaders never once accepted an offer, and never once agreed to recognize Israel as a legitimate state.

on a (much) lighter note:

It would have been better had the British mandate never ended, no point in crying over spilt milk though.

this can be (and has been) said regarding other former British territories...

[Thriller]

False dichotomy created in this discussion, Neither is right or wrong. Both are stupid and stubborn.

[[KMA]Avenger]

my last word in this thread will be this...if Israel can do this to their strongest supporters/financial backers, what would they do to their so called enemy's, and what are they not capable of?!?!?!

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... e80cf6bcd7

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... e80cf6bcd7

the point of the above is to prove Israel is a bigger terrorist state than any of the so called Arab terrorists nations.
Israel basically does whatever it pleases, and even the US and Uk keep their mouths shut when it comes to Israel's crimes.


edit:

and lets not forget the back-room deal LBJ (Lyndon Baines Johnson) made with Israel to sink the USS Liberty in order the US invade the mid-east in the 60's.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... e80cf6bcd7

watch the film Terrorstorm for full info, or research it yourselves.

[Brdavs]

It won`t make much sense to try and retort since you seem intent on spinning in that magical "but but" circle heh.

I`ll just say that illegalities are known and cant be ignored, they can and are however discredited and boged down by the israeli playing on the holocaust card to get europe to look the other way and by the godfathers in the US holding the candle.
There are at present, despite the doctrine of US to veto any overly critical resolution 200+ resolutions of condemming actions of Israel and/or calling for cessasion of certain actions, wast majority of which are ignored.

And the status of Gaza oand West Bank is *occupied territories*, nothing more.
Jerusalem itself is also occupied illegaly and the UN does not recognise its occupation.
Not to even mention reports of humanitarian and war crimes from sources that you`ll undoubtably work to discredit as per standard practice, Goldstone report like.


Fire up wiki for full definitions of genocide and ethnic cleansing. It doesnt take a genious to recognise elements of that in the collective punishment of gaza population whose living conditions are deliberatly maintained at near caveman level. And as far as ethinc cleansing goes, the jewish settlements are the obvious tool for that arent they + what is going in in jerusalem.
And the whole benevolent israel in negotiations is just lol man, just lol. Shows point blank why you cant reach an agreement, if you think of recent israels stance as "softening up" heh.

For the rest I could start bringing up zionist and radical hebrew stances and groups and their ideology filtering into israels policy but frankly, I`m not interested in getting sucked into the perpetual circle with you.


I`ll just wrap up by saying that you are both completley bonkers and that your inability to think long term will be something our great grand children will likely curse us all for.


Bleh and I said I wont get into it.

Either way thats done. Oppinion presented, to discuss things further would be shere lunacy and I for one am blessed with being able to avoid it. You guys knock yourselves out, litterary. Violence begets violence. And oh boy, sparks will fly down there still imo. Sadly. But hey, you`re both just asking for it so attribute it to yourselves.

[Hitchkok]

before you go. let me ask you a question (or rather, two):
imagine, if you will, that a group of mexican catholics in the south of Texas declared themselves a new nation. they call themselves "Texasians", and start demanding autonomy. Every country in Latin america is declaring support, but none, including Mexico, is willing to accept them, or give them a land. USA offers to renounce Texas to Mexico, along with the "Texasians". Mexico is unwilling to take it.
the "Texasian" begin attacking towns and cities along Texas and the US. The US, of-course, deploys the national guard to stop said attacks. this is published throughout the world as a sign of the US opressing the Texasian (which by now has become recognized as an ethnic group seperated from other latin america groups, an has gained observer status in the UN).
at last, the US withdraws all military from Texas, and evacuates every non-latin protestant civilians from Texas.
the US continues to supply Texas with food, fuel, water, electricity, drugs, and all sorts of humanitarian supplies.
Every latin and catholic state on earth, support the military endevours of the Texasians, none support their humanitarian ones.
the Texasian proceed to fire rockets at bordering states, resulting at termination of said supplies. this is presented as a blockade to the international community, and the supply is resumed.
Mexico discovers that ammunition is being smuggled through it's borders, and start building a wall to stop said smuggling.
A Texasian sniper shoots and kills a Mexican police officer.

The questions are:
what should the US do?
what would the US do?

British readers, change Mexican to Irish and US to England. then answer the question.

as for your links.
1) both the US and Israeli investigation concluded that the attack on the USS liberty was a mistake.
2) as for the other two: as i said, i am not about to advocate every action of the Israely government. mistakes were, are, and will be made. Israel does what it needs to survive. whether it is selling weapons, or spying (which, if memory serves, was unproved and officialy denied). sometimes it is not "hounorable". but it is never unprovoked aggression.

It won`t make much sense to try and retort since you seem intent on spinning in that magical "but but" circle heh.

I`ll just say that illegalities are known and cant be ignored, they can and are however discredited and boged down by the israeli playing on the holocaust card to get europe to look the other way and by the godfathers in the US holding the candle.
There are at present, despite the doctrine of US to veto any overly critical resolution 200+ resolutions of condemming actions of Israel and/or calling for cessasion of certain actions, wast majority of which are ignored.

And the status of Gaza oand West Bank is *occupied territories*, nothing more.
Jerusalem itself is also occupied illegaly and the UN does not recognise its occupation.
Not to even mention reports of humanitarian and war crimes from sources that you`ll undoubtably work to discredit as per standard practice, Goldstone report like.


Fire up wiki for full definitions of genocide and ethnic cleansing. It doesnt take a genious to recognise elements of that in the collective punishment of gaza population whose living conditions are deliberatly maintained at near caveman level. And as far as ethinc cleansing goes, the jewish settlements are the obvious tool for that arent they + what is going in in jerusalem.
And the whole benevolent israel in negotiations is just lol man, just lol. Shows point blank why you cant reach an agreement, if you think of recent israels stance as "softening up" heh.

For the rest I could start bringing up zionist and radical hebrew stances and groups and their ideology filtering into israels policy but frankly, I`m not interested in getting sucked into the perpetual circle with you.


I`ll just wrap up by saying that you are both completley bonkers and that your inability to think long term will be something our great grand children will likely curse us all for.


Bleh and I said I wont get into it.

Either way thats done. Oppinion presented, to discuss things further would be shere lunacy and I for one am blessed with being able to avoid it. You guys knock yourselves out, litterary. Violence begets violence. And oh boy, sparks will fly down there still imo. Sadly. But hey, you`re both just asking for it so attribute it to yourselves.

very briefly:
If the illegalities are known, please bring proof of them. i brought reference to every point i made.

Gaza cannot be occupied, if there is not one Israely soldier their (except for the POW gilad shalit, that is).

The UN does not recognize the annexion of some of jerusalem.
Have you read Goldstone report? i have. the main criticisam around it is that it ignores the attacks made on Israel by Hamas prior to operation "Cast lead". this is stated in the report's opening paragraph

I brought a definition of genocide earlier in this thread. what's happening is nothing like it.

Look up record of negotiations. search "oslo accords" and look through Yale's "Project Avalon".

both sides leaderships bonkers? i competely agree.
i never rebutted your opinions, just stated some facts.

now, here is my opinion:
were i Israels prime minister i would immediatly set the next ultimatom, publish it in the UN and what not:
"next time an act of aggression toward israel is to take place by a Palestinian party, all borders will be harmeticly closed. supplies can be transfered through the egyptian border to Gaza, and through the Jordanian border to the west bank. supply ships that were scanned by the UN and confirmed to carry no weapons and ammunition will also be allowed to reach the Gaza shore"
why? because i'm not about to kill every person in Gaza, but if their elected government is attacking me, i'm sure as hell not going to feed them.

[Kit-Fox]

Heh, nice to see you took it in the manner it was posted Hitchkok.

It was rather a light hearted throw away comment.

yeah I know its been said about other places that were part of the british empire to (both seriously & in joke by many)

[[KMA]Avenger]

as for your links.
1) both the US and Israeli investigation concluded that the attack on the USS liberty was a mistake.
2) as for the other two: as i said, i am not about to advocate every action of the Israely government. mistakes were, are, and will be made. Israel does what it needs to survive. whether it is selling weapons, or spying (which, if memory serves, was unproved and officialy denied). sometimes it is not "hounorable". but it is never unprovoked aggression.

LMAO, mate, those are all mainstream news and if dig deeper you will find out things (especially regarding the liberty) that should in all honesty make you condemn your own Govt...

since i doubt you will dig to see what i'm talking about...i'll fill you, from there on, its upto you if you want the truth or if you dont.

firstly, fully research Operation Northwoods.

on June 8th 1964, LBJ ordered operation northwoods be put into operation. the operation northwoods document (the brain child of (U.S. Genral Lyman L. Lemnitzer) laid out plans for the US to stag false flag events such as plane hijackings which would be crashed by remote control and blamed on Cuba as a pretext to invasion.
the document (now declassified), also laid out plans for the US to sink one of its own ships and blame it on any enemy it wished to.

starting to get the picture yet?

during the 6 day war, LBJ sent the Liberty on an intelligence gathering mission into the eastern Med, about 14 miles of Israel's coast. at 2PM the ship sitting in international waters gathering intel was attacked by Israeli jets. after a while Israeli torpedo boats joined the attack and did not hesitate to strafe men in the water...an international war crime.
the ship was flying the US flag which 1 of the Israeli pilots reported to base "its an allied ship", the pilot was ordered under threat of court martial to attack the ship regardless.


during the 3 hour attack on the liberty, they were constantly calling the 6th fleet for air support/rescue.
some jets were launched but were recalled by Washington. the 6th fleet commander couldnt believe the order and called Washington for confirmation. 1st Mcnamara gets on the phone and then LBJ and stated "i want that goddan ship going to the bottom. no help! recall the wings".

the 3 hour attack only ended when a Russian spy ship picked up the commotion and went to see what was going on, thats when the attack stopped and the Liberty limped back to the fleet.

all of the crew of the Liberty were told that none of what happened was to be spoken about or they would go to prison or be killed.
even the Israeli pilot went public stating he refused to engage the ship 3 times and that he could see an American flag and the ship was in international waters but was ordered under threat of court martial to engage the ship...

please explain to me how this is a "mistake".

also please explain to me how Israeli spying of US and UK citizens is a mistake...oops sorry, our bad we was listening when we shouldn't have been


and as for denying any of this or the selling of weapons...seriously, you expect Israel to come out and admit it any of it?

they wouldnt admit to even a small part of it when caught red handed...which they have been, regardless if you (or Israel) admit it or not.

anyways, i've enjoyed the exchange

[Hitchkok]

as for selling weapons and spying, i meant mistake as in something not thought out fully, not as in somthing that was unintentional.
i'm sure you can see the difference for yourself.
as for Liberty, as i haven't been there, nor have you, let's agree we don't know anything. again, refer me to a reliable source citing your version.
all i can give is the official governmental inquiry.

please answer my question.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i gave you all the info you need mate, research operation northwoods fully, or do what i do, watch 2 films, "loss liberty" and "terrorstorm" which are both on google video. watch those and make notes of key points and research for yourself. its the only way to learn.

anyways, i understand what your sayiong regarding the spying but i dont accept it because thats not a mistake born out of rash or bad decision making...that's an act of war and the act of terrorist rouge nation mate.

anyways, good luck in your awakening

edit:

the info is out there, you just have to look for it:

[spoiler]Betraying the Sailors of the USS Liberty
Arrest Robert McNamara

By STANLEY HELLER

I propose that 91 year old Robert McNamara be arrested. No, I'm not suggesting he be tried for his role in planning the fire bombings of Japanese cities during World War II, or for being LBJ's Defense Secretary and architect of the war of aggression against Vietnam. Jail him for one much smaller act, the betrayal of sailors aboard the USS Liberty. While the Liberty was under a massive attack, Robert McNamara twice recalled the airplanes that a navy commander had sent out to defend them.

The crime took place on June 8, 1967 during Israel's "Six Day" war against Egypt, Syria and Jordan. On the third day of the conflict Israeli forces launched a two-hour air and naval attack on the USS Liberty which was in international waters 14 miles off the coast of Egypt. At least a dozen unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm, and shot 30 mm cannon shells and rockets into the ship over a period of a half hour. Then an assault followed from torpedo boats involving torpedoes and machine gun fire. 34 Americans were killed and 172 were wounded.

The attack on the Liberty began at 1358 (military time). The Liberty was the most sophisticated intelligence ship in the world in 1967 and the first thing hit after the gun mounts were the antennae and the bridge. Nevertheless the radio operator managed to send this distress signal from Captain McGonagle: "Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft, require immediate assistance." Eleven minutes later the USS Saratoga acknowledged receiving the message and Captain Joseph M. Tully ordered 12 F-4 jets and other refueling aircraft to go to the assistance of the Liberty and informed Sixth Fleet Commander Admiral William Martin. The planes were about 40 minutes away. They wouldn't have arrived in time to stop the air attack, but could have prevented the torpedo attacks in which the majority of sailors were killed. Yet within minutes after launch an order came down from the flagship, the USS Little Rock, to recall the planes. There's an account that it was done on orders from Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.

Sixth Fleet carrier division commander Lawrence Geis transmitted the message to the Saratoga to recall the planes, but he also told Captain Tully to prepare to launch planes 90 minutes later. At 1450 the order was given to send another group of rescue planes and at 1545 they took off. At 1639 McNamara ordered the recall of these planes. Reportedly Geis demanded confirmation of that recall order from the next higher up in the command, President Lyndon Johnson. Johnson confirmed it and told him that he would not have his allies embarrassed.

The reports about what McNamara and LBJ said are from an account by Liberty intelligence officer David Lewis who said he met privately with Geis after Liberty survivors had been rescued. He said Geis had wanted to assure him that the Saratoga had tried to help. Geis died in 1980 so he can't confirm Lewis' account, but surely there are records about these messages and orders about what went on that day in the Sixth Fleet buried in Navy files.

What would be the charge against McNamara? He denied aid to American troops when they were under deadly attack and as a result 20 some men died and many more were injured. I'm no lawyer, but I've been told that the applicable crime is treason.

There's also the matter of obstruction of justice for ordering a cover-up. There was a hasty Naval Court of Inquiry set up to find out what happened to the Liberty. The senior legal counsel for the court was Captain Ward Boston. Admiral Isaac Kidd was president of the Court. In an affidavit signed on January 9, 2004 Captain Ward (now retired) swears that, "Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attacks, as well as their superiors who had ordered the attack were aware that the ship was AmericanI know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

The evidence that the attack was deliberate does seem "overwhelming". Here are some of the facts featured in a 2004 report by the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty that concluded the attack was no accident.

Israeli planes had observed the Liberty for eight hours before the attack

June 8 was a clear day with unlimited visibility

Survivors testify that a 5 by 8 American flag was flying all day on the Liberty until it was shot away and replaced by an even larger flag.

The flag was flying in a 12-knot breeze for most of the afternoon.

The Liberty's five American radio channels were jammed during the attack. The Egyptian military did not broadcast on those frequencies.

The Israelis machine-gunned the three life rafts the crew put out when it appeared the attack had let up. (This would assure there would be no survivors).

The Israelis claimed the Liberty had been mistaken for an Egyptian ship. However the Egyptian ship, a 1920's era horse carrier was a quarter the size of the Liberty

Who was this Independent Commission? Its chairperson was Admiral Thomas Moorer (Ret.). Moorer had a storied career. He was one of the first pilots off the ground during the attack on Pearl Harbor. In his long career he held posts of chief of the Pacific fleet, later chief of the Atlantic fleet and eventually Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The other members of the commission were General of the Marines Raymond G. Davis, former Assistant Commandant of the Marine Corps, Rear Admiral Merlin Starling, former Judge Advocate General of the Navy and Ambassador James Akins, former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. You could hardly ask for more expertise.

A last line of defense for those who claim that the Israeli attack was an accident concerns the question of motive. Why would Israel attack its "only friend in the world"? Well, for one Israel had plenty other friends. Recall it had fought a war in '56 alongside Britain and France without US support. Though it does seem quite mad for Israel to purposely attack the US that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Some theorize Israel wanted to sink the Liberty and blame it on Egypt as a way of getting US support, a supersized version of what their agents did in Cairo during the "Lavon Affair". Others think Israel wanted to cover up its plans for a ground attack on Syria. So let's find out. Even 40 years later a thorough investigation could come up with most of the truth.

If the Congress had any gumption it would demand the facts. We give Israel multi-billions a year. Congress could require that our Israeli client allow a team of naval investigators and translators examine internal Israeli military documents. Let them interview the Israeli pilots and commanders involved in the assault. Give the investigators a free hand to review all relevant US records.

Robert McNamara has never suffered a day for his crimes. After leaving the Johnson Administration he was appointed head of the World Bank and he held that post for 13 years. In 1995 he wrote a successful memoir "In Retrospect" and in 2003 was subject of an Academy Award winning documentary. He never apologized for anything, least of all to the men he purposely betrayed on the Liberty.

Arrest him.[/spoiler]

[Hitchkok]

please answer my question.

[[KMA]Avenger]

which one?

PS. read my edit.

[Hitchkok]

this one:

before you go. let me ask you a question (or rather, two):
imagine, if you will, that a group of mexican catholics in the south of Texas declared themselves a new nation. they call themselves "Texasians", and start demanding autonomy. Every country in Latin america is declaring support, but none, including Mexico, is willing to accept them, or give them a land. USA offers to renounce Texas to Mexico, along with the "Texasians". Mexico is unwilling to take it.
the "Texasian" begin attacking towns and cities along Texas and the US. The US, of-course, deploys the national guard to stop said attacks. this is published throughout the world as a sign of the US opressing the Texasian (which by now has become recognized as an ethnic group seperated from other latin america groups, an has gained observer status in the UN).
at last, the US withdraws all military from Texas, and evacuates every non-latin protestant civilians from Texas.
the US continues to supply Texas with food, fuel, water, electricity, drugs, and all sorts of humanitarian supplies.
Every latin and catholic state on earth, support the military endevours of the Texasians, none support their humanitarian ones.
the Texasian proceed to fire rockets at bordering states, resulting at termination of said supplies. this is presented as a blockade to the international community, and the supply is resumed.
Mexico discovers that ammunition is being smuggled through it's borders, and start building a wall to stop said smuggling.
A Texasian sniper shoots and kills a Mexican police officer.

The questions are:
what should the US do?
what would the US do?

British readers, change Mexican to Irish and US to England. then answer the question.

[[KMA]Avenger]

if the Texasians have a claim of right to the land then the yanks should piss off and leave the Texasians in peace...but that's my opinion, its purely hypothetical, never going to happen as it has in Canaan, or is it Palestine?! i mean Israel.

anyways, i dont really accept the question for many reason, the biggest being this so called aid they get, and i'm not willing to go into it as i dont wish to keep going round and round, with you never admitting Israel is a power unto themselves doing whatever the hell it likes...which has been amply proven in this thread.

have you read my above edit in the spoiler?

[Hitchkok]

if the Texasians have a claim of right to the land then the yanks should piss off and leave the Texasians in peace...but that's my opinion, its purely hypothetical, never going to happen as it has in Canaan, or is it Palestine?! i mean Israel.

anyways, i dont really accept the question for many reason, the biggest being this so called aid they get, and i'm not willing to go into it as i dont wish to keep going round and round, with you never admitting Israel is a power unto themselves doing whatever the hell it likes...which has been amply proven in this thread.

have you read my above edit in the spoiler?

does this constitutes a claim?
or this?
not so hypothetical now, is it?
and you haven't answer my second question, what would the US do?

i fully admit Israel is powerful, definiatly compared to the Palestinian.
should be. we worked hard to make it such.
good thing it is too. if it wasn't we would find out the hard way if the PLO's and Hamas charter was fearmongering or not.
doing what it likes? to an extent. doing what it needs to protect it's citizens. sometimes despite global opinion.
i read your edit, and as it is not material to this debate, i wont discuss it.