Israel... what do you think?

[[KMA]Avenger]

look, dont preach to me about claims of rights and whatnot...

i'm Greek Cypriot whose family was driven off the land by the US because archbishop Makarios (our then leader) was murdered for not letting the US have a base in northern Cyprus, and whose family's land is now in the hands of Turks who had no claim to the land because they were shipped in to specifically occupy the land, and which has been backed by the UN.
so, land that was in my family for MANY generations has been stolen from me, and on top of that, Turkish Cypriots who were once friends of my family have been butchered and raped by the main land Turks...

so maybe i'm the wrong person for you to try and convince me of your false position...but you can trust that i have done my research from independent sources backed by declassified documents and mainstream news..

can you claim the same?! i think not...

enjoy the rest of your thread

[Hitchkok]

look, dont preach to me about claims of rights and whatnot...

i'm Greek Cypriot whose family was driven off the land by the US because archbishop Makarios (our then leader) was murdered for not letting the US have a base in northern Cyprus, and whose family's land is now in the hands of Turks who had no claim to the land because they were shipped in to specifically occupy the land, and which has been backed by the UN.
so, land that was in my family for MANY generations has been stolen from me, and on top of that, Turkish Cypriots who were once friends of my family have been butchered and raped by the main land Turks...

when you have returned to cyprus, and formed an independent state, would you some 60 years later forfeit it's army and renounce it's existence, and the very safety of it's people, for whatever reason?
or you would make it as strong and independent as possible, to ensure another exile would not be forced upon you?
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, please state it's name.

[Mordack]

It would have been better had the British mandate never ended, no point in crying over spilt milk though.

The British Mandate had to end, though. They were in a difficult and ultimately untenable position because they made too many promises they couldn't keep.

(a) - The Arabs: We sent Lawrence of Arabia to work with the Arabs against the Ottoman Empire during the First World War. The Arabs were fighting for their independence against the Turks, and the British Arab Bureau led them to believe that we'd grant them such in exchange for their assistance after the war was concluded. There was also the McMahon-Hussein correspondence between the British High Commissioner and the Sharif of Mecca. One of these letters states implicitly promised the Arabians that Palestine would be included in such a state.

(b) - The Jews: In November of 1917 the British Government issues a formal deceleration recognizing the 'Zionist' movement and promising to recognize a 'national home for the Jewish people' when the time came.

(c) - The French and the Russians: We signed the secretive Sykes-Picot agreement, which essentially carved the Middle East up into spheres of influence.

If we intended to continue to expand our influence in the region then how could we realistically encourage aspirations of independence amongst various groups?

Basically the British Government was in a situation where it had let down everybody. The Jews and Arabs both resented them, and underfunded war-ravaged British forces were fighting a losing guerrilla war against both. There was also considerable international pressure, exacerbated by the outrages of the Holocaust, to allow increased Jewish immigration into Palestine and assist in the formation of a state. Especial pressure came from the heavily Zionist lobbied United States. They forwarded the issue to the United Nations because they simply couldn't cope.

[Desert Ghost]

1) before anything, please read this.

2) this is not a debate. it is a discussion. there are no rights and wrongs, just opinions and views.

3) having said that, facts are relevent. please DO NOT base your posts on false/doubious facts.

4) you can see by my sig which side i'm on, and i will disclose my views later on (and you'll might be surprised). but first, in the interest of appropriate disclosure (as well as a way to give you something to start at), here are some facts about myself:
I am jewish.
I was born and I live in Israel.
I served in the I.D.F for 4 years (3 mandatory and 1 voluntary).
I served at the west bank, and as an officer at both the Gaza strip and the Golan heights.
In Gaza, I served in a battalion composed mostly of Bedouin soldiers.
gadsar?


now, discuss.

oh, and another thing. please keep this clean and wholesome. i have asked semper to keep a close eye on this one.

come to MSN add me..

DG

[Desert Ghost]

i despise israel for what they are doing. actually i despise any country or people who opress and sorround a small minority of people with walls and imprison them within them. all this is doing is brewing more and more hatred towards each other. rightful owners of the land well both sides can claim ownership of that dating back thousands of years. in my opinion its a place were bothsides should be able to share and live amongst each other. the divison created by different beliefs does not justify the common aspects they share such as being human beings and the right to live and be free.

to see your face, your real face....


DG

[Hitchkok]

well, seeing as no one is willing to either answer my questions
[spoiler]

before you go. let me ask you a question (or rather, two):
imagine, if you will, that a group of mexican catholics in the south of Texas declared themselves a new nation. they call themselves "Texasians", and start demanding autonomy. Every country in Latin america is declaring support, but none, including Mexico, is willing to accept them, or give them a land. USA offers to renounce Texas to Mexico, along with the "Texasians". Mexico is unwilling to take it.
the "Texasian" begin attacking towns and cities along Texas and the US. The US, of-course, deploys the national guard to stop said attacks. this is published throughout the world as a sign of the US opressing the Texasian (which by now has become recognized as an ethnic group seperated from other latin america groups, an has gained observer status in the UN).
at last, the US withdraws all military from Texas, and evacuates every non-latin protestant civilians from Texas.
the US continues to supply Texas with food, fuel, water, electricity, drugs, and all sorts of humanitarian supplies.
Every latin and catholic state on earth, support the military endevours of the Texasians, none support their humanitarian ones.
the Texasian proceed to fire rockets at bordering states, resulting at termination of said supplies. this is presented as a blockade to the international community, and the supply is resumed.
Mexico discovers that ammunition is being smuggled through it's borders, and start building a wall to stop said smuggling.
A Texasian sniper shoots and kills a Mexican police officer.

The questions are:
what should the US do?
what would the US do?

British readers, change Mexican to Irish and US to England. then answer the question.

[/spoiler]
[spoiler]

look, dont preach to me about claims of rights and whatnot...

i'm Greek Cypriot whose family was driven off the land by the US because archbishop Makarios (our then leader) was murdered for not letting the US have a base in northern Cyprus, and whose family's land is now in the hands of Turks who had no claim to the land because they were shipped in to specifically occupy the land, and which has been backed by the UN.
so, land that was in my family for MANY generations has been stolen from me, and on top of that, Turkish Cypriots who were once friends of my family have been butchered and raped by the main land Turks...

when you have returned to cyprus, and formed an independent state, would you some 60 years later forfeit it's army and renounce it's existence, and the very safety of it's people, for whatever reason?
or you would make it as strong and independent as possible, to ensure another exile would not be forced upon you?
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, please state it's name.

[/spoiler]

or give anything else but wild accusation of Genocide backed up by nothing but the ad populum fallacy
[spoiler]

as for the charges of murder and genocide...i could show you a bunch of graphs comparing Israeli deaths vs Palestinian deaths, but seriously...what's the point in that?

Under the line, I`ll say that personally I`d only like to see Israel held accountable for all the violations of international and humanitarian law, and that list is long and violations severe. Noone in their right mind (note: this is "ad populum" at it's best!) can deny elements of genocide (note that the definition of genocide is not as limited as ww2 movies portraye them) and ethnic cleansing (simmilar disclaimer) do exist. And you cant wonder "gee why are the crazy beggars doing crazy stuff" when you treat people like that and push them towards it.

I`ll just say that illegalities are known and cant be ignored...(again, Ad populum. when i asked for further proof, i never got it)

[/spoiler]
and as everyone agrees Israel faces terrorism,
[spoiler]

and lets define a Palestinian terrorist...

Why not solve them? There is no better reason for it than the reason terrorists cite. Shortsigthed, pigheaded & selfrighteous BS.

[/spoiler]

let me just give some of my own opinions.
Israel is a fact. it exists, and it wil never renounce it's existence.
the palestinians have the right of self definition, and have a right to a state of their own. this state will include Gaza, which Israel has already renounced. the way i see it, whether it will include the west bank is up to how the palestinians will play their cards. the way their playing them now is not working to their benefeit. the way i see it, the constant dragging of negotiations, and the ever increasing demands (and look through yale's avalon project's section on the middle east for the facts on this) by the palestinian leadership only harms their people and their chances.
i am a humanist, a socialist, and a liberal. but i care for my people more then i care for other people. especially, when the other people leadership is continouesly calling for the annihilation of my state.
were i the israely PM, i would publish the following ultimatum worldwide: "the next act of aggression to be made by the palestinian people will bring about the immediate clousore of Israel's borders with Gaza and the West bank. ships will be allowed to come a shore, after being screened by the UN and proved to carry no weapons or ammunitions." the Jordanian and Egiptian borders are not under Israels juristiction, but given the fact that Egipt is currently building a wall to stop smuggling through said border, i don't think the palestinians should have great hopes from there.
would the palestinian leadership throw down their weapons and accept peacful proposals, Israel would be the first to help them develop their economy and agriculture (the same as we did with Jordan).
this situation will come to an end the minute the palestinian leadership will have the intrests of their people, rather than the destruction of Israel, as their first priority.

[Mordack]

Pope John Paul II once remarked that there are only two ways which the Palestine and Israel problem can be solved; the realistic and the miraculous. The realistic would be divine intervention from God, whereas the miraculous would involve an agreement from both sides.

[[KMA]Avenger]

well, seeing as no one is willing to either answer my questions

Subject: Israel... what do you think?

please answer my question.
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, state it's name.

please answer my question.
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, state it's name.

why should i answer that question with any degree of honesty since you wont even acknowledge the fact that i have shown concrete evidence your nation (when i say nation i dont mean the Israeli people but the Govt) has acted with treasonous intent towards its own allies and committed blatant acts of war?

i can go on and show clear ties between Mossad and 9/11...but what's the point since you wont even acknowledge an event that happened 43 years ago or even recognise your Govt has committed murder and genocide...and yes, regardless of how you justify it all, it is genocide as is defined in the UN definition of genocide from 1944:

[spoiler]Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
Buchenwald concentration camp

While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.[/spoiler].

i have no intention of debating you further on the matter since you are hell bent on blaming the Palestinian people for all their own suffering.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... 0bfd253bed

peaceful protesters shot by Israeli soldiers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAKYgMDVLQg

Rachel Corrie crushed by Israeli bull dozer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=e ... yrQL-ZhMy4

some footage of some REALLY nice drunk Israelis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIXIy6hNc8

and here's footage of a Palestinian prisoner shot while in custody, a blatant act of criminality!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ST5m9p ... re=related

i was wrong, its not just Israel that should face charges of criminal acts against humanity, but the US that supplies them their weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKgph9PV ... re=channel

i'm sure you'll be able to amply marginalise, rationalise and justify all of the above as you normally do



now go and do your own leg work and find out for yourself just how criminally insane and guilty your Govt and military is, there is MUCH more info available if you care to look.






i wont be posting here again, but there was no way i was letting that first sentence go unopposed.

[jedi~tank]

The rightful owners of the land are Hebrew and that land is much larger than just Israel.

[Hitchkok]

well, seeing as no one is willing to either answer my questions

Subject: Israel... what do you think?

please answer my question.
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, state it's name.

please answer my question.
if there is any country in the world that will act differently than your answer, state it's name.

why should i answer that question with any degree of honesty since you wont even acknowledge the fact that i have shown concrete evidence your nation (when i say nation i dont mean the Israeli people but the Govt) has acted with treasonous intent towards its own allies and committed blatant acts of war?

i can go on and show clear ties between Mossad and 9/11...but what's the point since you wont even acknowledge an event that happened 43 years ago or even recognise your Govt has committed murder and genocide...and yes, regardless of how you justify it all, it is genocide as is defined in the UN definition of genocide from 1944:

[spoiler]Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
Buchenwald concentration camp

While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.[/spoiler].

i have no intention of debating you further on the matter since you are hell bent on blaming the Palestinian people for all their own suffering.

http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... 0bfd253bed

peaceful protesters shot by Israeli soldiers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAKYgMDVLQg

Rachel Corrie crushed by Israeli bull dozer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=e ... yrQL-ZhMy4

some footage of some REALLY nice drunk Israelis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIXIy6hNc8

and here's footage of a Palestinian prisoner shot while in custody, a blatant act of criminality!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ST5m9p ... re=related

i was wrong, its not just Israel that should face charges of criminal acts against humanity, but the US that supplies them their weapons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKgph9PV ... re=channel

i'm sure you'll be able to amply marginalise, rationalise and justify all of the above as you normally do



now go and do your own leg work and find out for yourself just how criminally insane and guilty your Govt and military is, there is MUCH more info available if you care to look.






i wont be posting here again, but there was no way i was letting that first sentence go unopposed.

do you even read what you post?
you so genearously highlighted the fact that you are intentionally not answering my question.
my answering or not answering your wild conspiracy theories (and again, both the Israely and US governmental enquiries concluded that the attack on USS liberty was a MISTAKE), is irrelevent to my questions. as it still stands, no one is willing to answer my questions.

and BTW,
the palestinian in costudy was shot with a rubber bullet to his leg, and the Battalion commander, leutenent colonel Omri Broomberg was relieved of his post and discharged of the IDF.
as for Rachel Corrie, have you ever been on an armored D9 bulldozer? the line of sight is very small (thats the price you have to pay for having enough armor to deflect palestinian RPGs), and the engine makes enough noise to make sure you can't hear a thing. get infront of one, and the driver won't see you or hear you.

[Mordack]

The rightful owners of the land are Hebrew and that land is much larger than just Israel.

Rightful according to what, though?

Presentations of the Arab-Israeli conflict from either side often stress elements of ancient history. The Jewish camp cite verses from the Torah, and other scripture, whilst the Palestinians and Arabs cite similar statements from their own religious writings. Everybody has resorted to religious imagery and historical motifs in what is essentially a dispute over land between two competing strands of nationalism; both of which are one hundred percent certain of the validity of their claims. I wonder why you think one is 'right' but not the other.

[jedi~tank]

The rightful owners of the land are Hebrew and that land is much larger than just Israel.

Rightful according to what, though?

Presentations of the Arab-Israeli conflict from either side often stress elements of ancient history. The Jewish camp cite verses from the Torah, and other scripture, whilst the Palestinians and Arabs cite similar statements from their own religious writings. Everybody has resorted to religious imagery and historical motifs in what is essentially a dispute over land between two competing strands of nationalism; both of which are one hundred percent certain of the validity of their claims. I wonder why you think one is 'right' but not the other.

I believe the account that cannot be explained or explained away.

[Hitchkok]

i'm sure you'll be able to amply marginalise, rationalise and justify all of the above as you normally do

you keep posting half truths, i'll keep posting the other half.
and may i say, that despite answering your questions in PMs, you still refuse to answer mine.

[[KMA]Avenger]

despite answering your questions in PMs, you still refuse to answer mine.

you haven't answered anything yet! all you have is try and explain how such a "mistake" can easily happen:

[spoiler]

this has all been addressed in the thread.
what has not been addressed are my questions.

ACTUALLY MATE, you haven't addressed anything i've said, all you have done (as i said you would) is accuse me of being a "conspiracy theorist" and simply dismissed everything by saying its either been "addressed" or was found to be a mistake...tell you what Dr Watson...

if you can tell me in your next PM how the Israeli pilots can mistake an allied ship flying the flag of the US, i will then address your questions, hows that?

if you CANT or fail to explain to me how for over 2 hours Israeli pilots can mistake the US flag flying USS Liberty for an out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier-El Quseir, which is 1/4 of the tonnage of the Liberty, then please dont PM me again as i will know you have NO interest in truth and opinions, only conspiracy theories and propaganda!

again, you are taking a negligible and irrelevent part that i don't really see what has to do with the subject on hand, and making it a pivot of the entire discussion.
but as i'm not one to leave questions unanswerds, here goes:
Israely pilots have a relatively short training. they are not specificly trained on various ships.
can you recognise the tonnage of a ship from a fighter jet cruising altitude? neither can pilots without specific trainings.
as for flying the US flag, come on. deception is a fundemental part of war principles.
now, thats not to say that what happened. i don't have all the fact about this. you DO haave your opinions on my questions.

[/spoiler]

well i'm sorry, but that explanation doesn't cut it for 1 major reason. i have asked you repeatedly to check it out for yourself and you refuse...fine! i'll explain to you why it was no accident or mistake, and furthermore, was a blatant act of war against your closest ally and also the attack is classed by every civilised nation as a war crime.

the Liberty was in international waters and while the Liberty's crew were trying to lower life raft into the waters, they were strafed, attacked and killed by Israeli torpedo boats. the pilots themselves said they saw the flag and reported back to HQ it was an allied ship but they were ordered under threat of court martial to engage the ship regardless.

as i have told you repeatedly, GO SEE FOR YOURSELF (before you accuse me of half truths) there is FAAAR more info not just on the liberty attack but also Israel's numerous other crimes against its allies and its enemies.

so until you can answer the MANY charges in a manor other than "its a mistake", you wont get an answer out of me!

get it now, or are you still going to look at Israel's crimes with tunnel vision?

edit:

and just for the record (because i know for a fact you wont look for yourself), the Israeli jets that attacked the Liberty had no markings...attacking a target on the high seas (correct me if wrong, someone) without "colours" is also an international war crimes and an act of piracy, the question you need to ask yourself (which i know you wont) is, why would any nation in modern times need to attack anyone without "colours"?!

[Hitchkok]

why should i answer that question with any degree of honesty since you wont even acknowledge the fact that i have shown concrete evidence your nation (when i say nation i dont mean the Israeli people but the Govt) has acted with treasonous intent towards its own allies and committed blatant acts of war?

again, you are taking a negligible and irrelevent part that i don't really see what has to do with the subject on hand, and making it a pivot of the entire discussion.

the USS liberty is not relevent to this thread.
both governmental inquiries concluded it was a mistake. i explained to you how this mistake could have happened.
again: the USS liberty is not relevent to this thread.
to put it simply, you might as well have said "why should i answer your question as long as apples are not oranges?"

now, please answer my question, or atleast explain why do you evade it.
or don't. but don't give irelevent justifications.