Israel... what do you think?

[Hitchkok]

i'm sorry i took me such a long time to reply, but my head is still a little sore from all that banging it in the wall...

And Israels claim is based on the fact that they murdered & commited genocide to clear the land of its original inhabitants. Seriously, its in your own religious books that

God promised?? If he promised why did he require you to kill (which is against his word) to claim the land.

Also to JT, Israel survives even surrounded by those who dont like/appreciate it because it is backed both economically & militarily by the US. Without this backing Israel would not survive in a conflict with its neighbours.

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?

and this is relevent how?

flowing with milk and honey?! i assume your referring to the Israeli side of the fence?

Israel's economy is where it is because we had the sense to invest in our economy, education and agriculture, and not in provoking and attacking our neighbours

there's 1 thing about this particular topic that stands out like boy George at a gymnasium, and that's the absolute BS that comes out of the Israeli and Israeli supporters side

and your posts are just the picture of logic, are they?
may i remind you you have yet to answer a single one of my question, or bring reference to any one point made by you? while i'll brought reference to every single point i made?



and you have yet to answer my latest question:

you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

this has been discussed so many times in this thread it's not even funny.
the word frustrating comes to mind...
but again: can you bring any backing to this ridicolus murder accusation?

and please define "theft of land", and demonstrate how it applies in the case in question.

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

man, you must really think we are as gullible as a child if you think that last post of yours has any credibility in our eyes

no, it has to be some absurd NWO conspiracy theory to have any credibility, doesn't it?

i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies...

of which to one you have failed to bring one prove, except the all powerful Ad Populum, and the second are complex matters of international politics.

there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

so, you understand God now?
and as JT pointed out

I dont think you know why you hate Israel, and just because you can get people to "agree with you" does not mean your right

you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

this has been discussed so many times in this thread it's not even funny.
the word frustrating comes to mind...
but again: can you bring any backing to this ridicolus murder accusation?

and please define "theft of land", and demonstrate how it applies in the case in question.

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

and i do hope this is the last time we see such blatantly out of context quotes in this discussion.

dont take me for either a fool or blind, i dont take you for a fool, but i do think your as blind as they come!

???????????????????????????


OH, and just 1 more thing:

here's another charge of crimes against humanity committed by Israel: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... f6d6a096b2

okay, this is arguebly my fault for asking you to stop postink half-truths.
i just didn't think you'll turn to whole lies.
and even then, why go that far?
just accuse jews of drinking of christian babies blood
it's intresting your "reserch" didn't go even as far as reading the [ur=http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/Israel_organ-harvesting_anti-Semitism.html]second link[/url] in that page you linked to.
oh well. i guess i shouldn't have expected that much from a NWO conspiracy theorist...

[Hitchkok]

you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

Your missing a trick there KMA

How far back do we go? Should we give the US & Austrailia back to the indigineous peoples of those countries? Should the Roman Catholic CHurch demand the return of the Hagia Sophia??

Where does it stop, you have to draw a line under losses (if they are even losses at all in the first place in the case of the Jews & Israel) of all sorts eventually as if you dont you open up a whole can of worms the world over & the Jews just have to learn this like the rest of us have.

Besides you never lost the land to start with, there is no major archeological evidence to show that Jews were the first major civilisation to exist in the area currently known as Israel. And even from the date Jewish artefacts start to appear, there is no evidence that Jews were either a) in charge or b) living in anything more than small groups in already established city states.

without going into the entire historical and archeological question, let's use your own words

How far back do we go? Should we give the US & Austrailia back to the indigineous peoples of those countries? Should the Roman Catholic CHurch demand the return of the Hagia Sophia??

Where does it stop, you have to draw a line under losses (if they are even losses at all in the first place in the case of the Jews & Israel) of all sorts eventually as if you dont you open up a whole can of worms the world over & the Palestinians just have to learn this like the rest of us have.

now, you might notice i changed a word in the quote. i even went as far as highlighting it for you. it's a little more fitting to the current situation, isn't it?
unless you conveniently draw your line at 1948. and that will need a justification as to how that specific year has been chosen.

EDIT: and the religous claim has just as much to do with todays state of Israel as the others thanks to the blurring of the lines between religion & state that exists in the Jewish state. Next I suppose you'l lbe telling me that those arabs who do live in Israel arent constantly harrassed or find themselves suffering punative actions by the state for actions outside of their control?

Israel is a member of the UN. it was not accepted to the UN based on the Jewish religion. it was accepted based on the right of self determination. nothing more, nothing less.
there is no blurring between state and religion. Israel is an advanced democracy, with laws and courts defending minorities. if you have proof for Arab Israely citizens being discriminated, bring it forth.

[Mister Sandman]

To be honest, the state of Zion was made for the Jewish people as it was seen that the race could not survive dispersed all around the world...

proven by hamen and hitler

one jealous zealot or leader or person in a position of power trying to rid the race..

as for other areas, there has been significant amounts of land given back to ancestors, of indigenous people... in both australia and the states...

[Kit-Fox]

No its not more fitting to the current situation, and as to where I draw the line well that would be at several hundred years which you are yet to pass which is also the criteria that most legal systems work on as well, while considering other things like integration of existing populations into the society (which you dont, you fence them off and starve them of food/water & even medical supplies)

As for abuses of Arab citizen in Israel, I might point you towards the highly illegal and almost without exception violent land grabs made by the Jewish population with Gov & military support. I might also point you in the direction of how arab citizens are 99% more likely to be subject to ID checks when accessing services than a Jewish citizen (oh how sweet is that irony, can anyone here recall the star of david the jews had to wear in germany?)


Also if your claim were based 100% on self-determination as you claim it to be, then why not go elsewhere? You were offered several places aroudn the world, some were even unpopulated & provide much better natural resources that Israel does. Why not one of them where you would have been safe from outside interferance and could have lived in peace???

Its nothing to do with self-determination, thats just a nice veneer to lay on top of the rest (whats known as a lie-to-children)

[Hitchkok]

No its not more fitting to the current situation, and as to where I draw the line well that would be at several hundred years which you are yet to pass which is also the criteria that most legal systems work on as well

that won't do. how many hundred years?
5 hundred years? culombus only set sail in 1492. surely if you allow for 500 years, you will allow a couple of decade above that. so america is to be governed by Indian
3 hundred years? captain Cook only sailed past australia in 1770, so again, it's back to the aboriginal tribes.
2 hundred years? better vacate tesmanya, which became indepndent on 1825.
1 hundred years? putting a little stretch on the word "several", but never mind. keep in mind new zealand only declared independence on 1947, so again, any anglo-saxons there should ship out back to england.
now, do you support abolishing the current government of new zealand in favour of an independent polynesian state? if not, please explain what changed between 25 of november 1947 and the 5 of may 1948, or admit youre apllying double standarts.
i want to see a full set of criteria and a rational.
nothing less would be double standarts per-excelance.

while considering other things like integration of existing populations into the society

oh, so the Arab MPs, ministers, doctors, lawyers, judges, businessman, ambassedors and even army generals are not indicative of integration?
better revise my definition for integretion then.

(which you dont, you fence them off and starve them of food/water & even medical supplies)

we built a fence to stop terrorist suicide bombing. period, full stop.
we built the fence with supply terminals, to supply Gaza with everything. water, electricity, fuel, food, medical supplies, agricultural supplies, baby food, diapers, and so on and so forth. i served near one of those terminals, the Kerem Shalom (litterly, Vineyard of peace, by the way). it was closed following an attack on it by an armored vehicle filled with explosives almost two years ago. similiar attacks closed the other terminals: the Erez terminal, the Sufa terminal and the Karni terminal.
anyway, let's not forget Gaza has a border with egypt, and that the west bank has a border with Jordan. why aren't supplies coming through those borders?
they are. but it's better for Hammas propaganda to pretend they don't.

As for abuses of Arab citizen in Israel, I might point you towards the highly illegal and almost without exception violent land grabs made by the Jewish population with Gov & military support. I might also point you in the direction of how arab citizens are 99% more likely to be subject to ID checks when accessing services than a Jewish citizen (oh how sweet is that irony, can anyone here recall the star of david the jews had to wear in germany?)

please do point me (if you can) to such land grabs.
and about ID checks: i had never been able to receive one single govenmental service without giving my ID number and showing a certificate.
heck, the other day i went to town to buy a laptop, and was stopped and asked to open my bag at the entrence to every mall, bus station and store.
the fact my bag had an IDF logo on it and that i had a reserves officer certificate on me had nothing to do with it. old ladies, immigrants from the former USSR that stood in que behind me had to oppen their bags and be checked by a hand held magnometer just aswell. heck, as an officer IN ACTIVE SERVICE, WEARING UNIFORMS, i had to pass my bags through scanners to make sure i wasn't carrying explosives.

Also if your claim were based 100% on self-determination as you claim it to be, then why not go elsewhere? You were offered several places aroudn the world, some were even unpopulated & provide much better natural resources that Israel does. Why not one of them where you would have been safe from outside interferance and could have lived in peace???

now, you see, some common sense should be apllied here.
do you honestly believe in 1900 there was one habitable spot on earth left that was not, well, habitated? and even if there was, as i previously said "the decision to choose the land of Israel as a territory for the new Jewish state was infact the historical connection between the Jewish people and that land." and that historical connection exists, whether you like to admit it or not. and no one has yet to point me to what is wrong with this decision.

Its nothing to do with self-determination, thats just a nice veneer to lay on top of the rest (whats known as a lie-to-children)

care to back that statement up?
and let me clarify:
there are two issues:
1) the very existence of a jewish state, which is justified by the right of self determination.
2) it's existence in the land of Israel, which is justified by UN decision, if nothing else.


now, a question. do you even bother reading and thinking about what i post, or am i just preaching to the wrong choir?

[Kit-Fox]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

[[KMA]Avenger]

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?

and this is relevent how?

did i say it was relevant to anything?
JT made a statement of supposed fact, it might be fact on his planet but i hate to break it to you, the planet i stand on deals in reality not fantasy. i have simply corrected him, nothing more.

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

the problem is not as straight forward as you might have us believe.

firstly there's the problem that it was NEVER your land in the first place, and dont tell me God gave it to you...get him on the phone to tell me himself and i will print off every word i have posted and stand in the middle of London and eat my words. only the word of God from Gods mouth will suffice, and if you cant provide it then it should be you eating your words...i stand by what i say otherwise i dont say it in the first place. and if i'm proven wrong (which i have been on occasion and have admitted it!) i'm big enough to admit it, so dont call me blind, close minded or anything of that nature without knowing who i am and what i stand for!

no, it has to be some absurd NWO conspiracy theory to have any credibility, doesn't it?

as i've stated, i dont deal in theory's, i deal in reality!

i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies..
there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

as JT pointed out

I dont think you know why you hate Israel, and just because you can get people to "agree with you" does not mean your right

after reading what i wrote in that enlarged text you still cant understand what i wrote?


let me make it clear for you, i am neither a racists or anti-semitic. i dont hate the Israeli people, i hate what they do...clear enough?


and as for me not answering you on your questions, the short reply is, i have no intention of replying to you.

the long reply is that you agreed to answer my questions and i would answer yours, you have failed to answer my questions on every single atempt you have made to fob me off and have simply dismissed them as "mistakes" and "theories", i have given you proof that what your Govt has done is commit acts of aggression against their allies. and furthermore, if those acts were committed by others, they would be classed by everyone as acts of war.

to put it even simpler, while all answers are replies, not all replies are answers.

when you decide to answer my questions with a bit more thought i will respond to your questions...but i wont hold my breath!

[Hitchkok]

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?

and this is relevent how?

did i say it was relevant to anything?
JT made a statement of supposed fact, it might be fact on his planet but i hate to break it to you, the planet i stand on deals in reality not fantasy. i have simply corrected him, nothing more.

actually, he stated his religious belief, nothing more.
you can try and debate religious beliefs, but you probably know how well that usually works out....

not to mention you are failing to address my question:
what is the problem with choosing the land of Israel as a territory for the Jewish state?

the problem is not as straight forward as you might have us believe.

firstly there's the problem that it was NEVER your land in the first place, and dont tell me God gave it to you...get him on the phone to tell me himself and i will print off every word i have posted and stand in the middle of London and eat my words. only the word of God from Gods mouth will suffice, and if you cant provide it then it should be you eating your words...i stand by what i say otherwise i dont say it in the first place. and if i'm proven wrong (which i have been on occasion and have admitted it!) i'm big enough to admit it, so dont call me blind, close minded or anything of that nature without knowing who i am and what i stand for!

actually, i never once in this thread relied on "word of god".
i have actually stated being an atheist numerous times.
there are, however, archeological and historical proofs of jewish settelment and government in the land of israel, a number of centuries BCE.
the Palestinians, by the way, came to the the land of Israel during the Islamic era, which begun in the 7th century.

i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies..
there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

after reading what i wrote in that enlarged text you still cant understand what i wrote?


let me make it clear for you, i am neither a racists or anti-semitic. i dont hate the Israeli people, i hate what they do...clear enough?

here is my point: you have no proof for this alleged "crimes against humanity" for a simple reason: they never happened!!!
you choose to believe them with no good reason.
and if you have proof, please post them, as i have asked for many times.
as for Israel conduct towards the US: i have already addressed this in this thread, and i will again: Israel is a small country, sorrounded by enemies. as such, it does what it can and need to do to survive. yes, some diplomatical mystakes where done, but as neither you or i are in a leadership position and have all the facts, i hardly think we are able to discuss it.
but whatever, if it gives you an excuse to hate Israel...

and as for me not answering you on your questions, the short reply is, i have no intention of replying to you.

the long reply is that you agreed to answer my questions and i would answer yours, you have failed to answer my questions on every single atempt you have made to fob me off and have simply dismissed them as "mistakes" and "theories", i have given you proof that what your Govt has done is commit acts of aggression against their allies. and furthermore, if those acts were committed by others, they would be classed by everyone as acts of war.

to put it even simpler, while all answers are replies, not all replies are answers.

when you decide to answer my questions with a bit more thought i will respond to your questions...but i wont hold my breath!

i have actually given you a perfectly reasonable explanation as for the USS liberty incident, which you, for some reason made a pivotal point of the discussion.
and here, read for yourself an account by a US navy aviator, an account by "Honest reporting", an account by A. jay cristol, and an account by the committe for accuracy in middle east reporting in america
does this qualify as answer?

[Mister Sandman]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

''

[Dubby_CompGamerGeek2]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

I did not realize SandMan's position here... I thought he was agreeing with Kit-Fox...

:: agrees with Kit-Fox in the cited quotation ::

[[KMA]Avenger]

@Hitchkok:

obviously you are so blinded by your national pride you are unable to think for yourself, so you force me to do the thinking for you and spell it out completely.


why have i made the Liberty incident a pivotal point of contention in my arguments?! the reason is, that while the incident itself can be dismissed with any number of reasons and commission conclusions, what cannot be denied, dismissed or simply ignored is the fact the ship was in international waters, and while the attack was under way by the torpedo boats (it was a 2 pronged attack, 1st the planes then the boats) they strafed the lifeboats killing 30 odd men in the water in international waters, that is an international war-crime by every civilised nations definition of the word "war-crime". that is as i said, undeniable and cannot be justified by either you or your country...

why is all of above relevant to any of this?! because any moral high ground you have has vanished beneath your feet and proves your nations Govt is nothing but a gang of international war criminals and should be prosecuted as such.

dont stand there and tell us that what Israel does is justified because the Palestinians terrorise the peace loving Israelis, because the Palestinians strap bombs to themselves and blow up peace loving Israelis.
no one wants to die and yet these people strap bombs to themselves and kill themselves as well as Israelis...maybe they have a good reason for this and maybe they dont, but dont tell me Israel is innocent of any and all crimes, and dont tell me the Liberty incident is a mistake because a commission says so. a commission said that 9/11 was planned and carried out by Bin Laden and his banned of 19 merry men. but no one has ever been prosecuted much less-charged for the crime of 9/11, and no where on the list of FBI charges on Bin Laden's profile is the charge of 9/11. but the commission still laid the blame for 9/11 on Bin Laden...even though neither the commission or the FBI have any proof whatsoever.
[spoiler]FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitive

MURDER OF U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; CONSPIRACY TO MURDER U.S. NATIONALS OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES; ATTACK ON A FEDERAL FACILITY RESULTING IN DEATH

USAMA BIN LADEN


Date of Photograph Unknown

Aliases: Usama Bin Muhammad Bin Ladin, Shaykh Usama Bin Ladin, the Prince, the Emir, Abu Abdallah, Mujahid Shaykh, Hajj, the Director

DESCRIPTION

Date of Birth: 1957 Hair: Brown
Place of Birth: Saudi Arabia Eyes: Brown
Height: 6' 4" to 6' 6" Complexion: Olive
Weight: Approximately 160 pounds Sex: Male
Build: Thin Nationality: Saudi Arabian
Occupation: Unknown
Remarks: Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base". He is left-handed and walks with a cane.
Scars and Marks: None

CAUTION

USAMA BIN LADEN IS WANTED IN CONNECTION WITH THE AUGUST 7, 1998, BOMBINGS OF THE UNITED STATES EMBASSIES IN DAR ES SALAAM, TANZANIA, AND NAIROBI, KENYA. THESE ATTACKS KILLED OVER 200 PEOPLE. IN ADDITION, BIN LADEN IS A SUSPECT IN OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD. <can you see the crime of 9/11 in that lot because i cant!

but hay, a commission said he did it, so they must be right...PLEEEEEEEEASE, give me a break!

CONSIDERED ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS

IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION CONCERNING THIS PERSON, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR LOCAL FBI OFFICE OR THE NEAREST U.S. EMBASSY OR CONSULATE.

REWARD

The Rewards For Justice Program, United States Department of State, is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading directly to the apprehension or conviction of Usama Bin Laden. An additional $2 million is being offered through a program developed and funded by the Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association.


June 1999
Poster Revised November 2001

| View PDF Version | New York Field Office |
| Ten Most Wanted Fugitives | Facts | FBI Home Page |

To view the PDF (Portable Document Format) version, you will need to have the Adobe Acrobat Reader plug-in installed on your computer. The Reader can be downloaded at no cost from Adobe's site on the World Wide Web.[/spoiler]


but since all of the above will fall on deaf ears i am forced to follow KF out the door

[Sir Balor]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

[Hitchkok]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

all i'm going to say is this:
interesting to note how easily slander can be thrown around with no basis what so ever. tanks going through schools? that rivals the absurdity of the organ harvesting blood libel.
oh, well. i guess historical ducumentation and such can be waved if a person really wants to believe something.

[jedi~tank]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

all i'm going to say is this:
interesting to note how easily slander can be thrown around with no basis what so ever. tanks going through schools? that rivals the absurdity of the organ harvesting blood libel.
oh, well. i guess historical ducumentation and such can be waved if a person really wants to believe something.

There is a simple solution, get out of Israel if you hate them so dam much and leave them the hell alone and I promise you they wont bother you..Now if by chance you are walking down the street one day and Jew goes upside ya head..will you have an issue with that single Jew or will you blame the entire race?

[Dubby_CompGamerGeek2]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

I did not realize Mister Sandman's position here... I thought he was agreeing with Kit-Fox...

:: agrees with Kit-Fox in the cited quotation ::

so long as Israel restricts the access to water for the Palestinian people that were kicked out by the modern-day founders of Israel;

so long as Israel continues to build Jewish-only settlements in areas where the majority of the population is miraculously still Palestinian;

so long as the Palestinians are dirt poor and the Israeli state is among the most prosperous in the Middle East;

so long as the Israelis have a state, and the Palestinians do not;

so long as the Israelis have the lion's share of support from the Western World;

so long as the Israelis punish the families of insurgents and terrorists by reeking terror themselves... intentionally destroying their houses, etc;

so long as there is widespread oppression, corruption, etc.,
by both sides, and not diplomacy, nor justice;

That is how long I will be upset with both sides,
but much more so with the big dogs and less so with the underdogs...

The Jewish State of Israel is perpetuating so much of what they endured against themselves and their ancestors...

it's happening all over again, because humans refuse to learn better ways of doing things.






Be the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Gandhi


** I promise myself that I won't depress myself by entering a discussion on this matter ever again with people not honestly seeking a fair and equitable solution. **