Israel... what do you think?

[Ra]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

Care to provide any documentation to back those claims up? News clips? Accredited articles? Anything?

[jedi~tank]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

I did not realize Mister Sandman's position here... I thought he was agreeing with Kit-Fox...

:: agrees with Kit-Fox in the cited quotation ::

so long as Israel restricts the access to water for the Palestinian people that were kicked out by the modern-day founders of Israel;

so long as Israel continues to build Jewish-only settlements in areas where the majority of the population is miraculously still Palestinian;

so long as the Palestinians are dirt poor and the Israeli state is among the most prosperous in the Middle East;

so long as the Israelis have a state, and the Palestinians do not;

so long as the Israelis have the lion's share of support from the Western World;

so long as the Israelis punish the families of insurgents and terrorists by reeking terror themselves... intentionally destroying their houses, etc;

so long as there is widespread oppression, corruption, etc.,
by both sides, and not diplomacy, nor justice;

That is how long I will be upset with both sides,
but much more so with the big dogs and less so with the underdogs...

The Jewish State of Israel is perpetuating so much of what they endured against themselves and their ancestors...

it's happening all over again, because humans refuse to learn better ways of doing things.






Be the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Gandhi


** I promise myself that I won't depress myself by entering a discussion on this matter ever again with people not honestly seeking a fair and equitable solution. **

The fair and equatible solution would be for the Palestinians to have thier land back. You will be shocked at where they are SUPPOSED to call home

[Sir Balor]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

Care to provide any documentation to back those claims up? News clips? Accredited articles? Anything?

oh i would, but lots of political drama ensued when an assistant to the journalist got the camara footage (he was dressed in local attire so the isreali army didnt know he was with the journalists) and made an escape, he was later captured and accused of being a spy, then killed within a week. the camara footage however had been passed to a british aid worker and made its way to the BBC. the US government however got wind that their retarded little brother was going to have the british public screaming for blood and boycotted its showing. i only found out as it was in a small artical hidden away in the guardian(intellectual non-biased paper for those not british) and the death of the cameraman and presenter was shown on not the morning or 6 o clock news, it was only shown during the 3 in the morning news. this was during the First Intifada.

if you want stuff on the Second Intifada i think you will find this satisfactory.
http://cpj.org/2004/03/attacks-on-the-press-2003-israel-and-the-occupied.php
"Thirteen days later, on May 2, British freelance cameraman and film director James Miller was fatally shot in Rafah, in the Gaza Strip. An award-winning documentary filmmaker, Miller was with a crew filming an HBO documentary about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. When they attempted to leave the area that evening, Miller and several crew members came under fire while they tried to identify themselves as journalists to Israeli troops in armored personnel carriers about 109 yards (100 meters) away. The journalists, who were wearing jackets and helmets marked "TV," shined a flashlight on a white flag they were holding and shouted at the troops. As they approached, Miller was hit in the neck by one of several rounds that were fired, and he later died of his injuries. The Israeli army said troops in the area returned fire after being attacked with rocket-propelled grenades. Army officials claimed that Miller was struck by a bullet from behind, suggesting that he may have been hit by Palestinian fire.

A detailed investigation sponsored by Miller's colleagues, family, and friends and conducted by British security consultant Chris Cobb-Smith of the security company Chiron Resources Limited, however, concluded that IDF soldiers "consciously and deliberately targeted" Miller and his crew. The report noted that the area where Miller's crew was operating had been quiet for about an hour before he was killed. Prior to that time, only sporadic gunfire was heard, but not in the journalists' vicinity. According to the report, it is reasonable to assume that the IDF troops heard the crew calling to them, and that they were aware of the crew's presence. At year's end, an Israeli military police investigation into the incident was under way. The IDF's investigation into the shooting has not been made public.

The military's previous record of investigating such incidents does not bode well for the official inquiries launched into the deaths of Darwazeh and Miller. Over the years, the army has failed to conduct thorough investigations into cases where journalists have been wounded or killed by IDF gunfire, let alone punish those responsible for the attacks. The same can be said for troops who physically attack or otherwise mistreat journalists in the field."

[Hitchkok]

your not going to get through to him
ofc hitchkoks parents/grandparents didnt tell him of the atrocities that happened as isreal gained independence.
ofc the isreali media wouldnt portray images of tanks going through occupied schools killing hundreds of children, or of the isreali army shooting british journalists recording such acts.

Care to provide any documentation to back those claims up? News clips? Accredited articles? Anything?

oh i would, but lots of political drama ensued when an assistant to the journalist got the camara footage (he was dressed in local attire so the isreali army didnt know he was with the journalists) and made an escape, he was later captured and accused of being a spy, then killed within a week. the camara footage however had been passed to a british aid worker and made its way to the BBC. the US government however got wind that their retarded little brother was going to have the british public screaming for blood and boycotted its showing. i only found out as it was in a small artical hidden away in the guardian(intellectual non-biased paper for those not british) and the death of the cameraman and presenter was shown on not the morning or 6 o clock news, it was only shown during the 3 in the morning news. this was during the First Intifada.

if you want stuff on the Second Intifada i think you will find this satisfactory.
http://cpj.org/2004/03/attacks-on-the-press-2003-israel-and-the-occupied.php
"Thirteen days later, on May 2, British freelance cameraman and film director James Miller was fatally shot in Rafah, in the Gaza Strip. An award-winning documentary filmmaker, Miller was with a crew filming an HBO documentary about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. When they attempted to leave the area that evening, Miller and several crew members came under fire while they tried to identify themselves as journalists to Israeli troops in armored personnel carriers about 109 yards (100 meters) away. The journalists, who were wearing jackets and helmets marked "TV," shined a flashlight on a white flag they were holding and shouted at the troops. As they approached, Miller was hit in the neck by one of several rounds that were fired, and he later died of his injuries. The Israeli army said troops in the area returned fire after being attacked with rocket-propelled grenades. Army officials claimed that Miller was struck by a bullet from behind, suggesting that he may have been hit by Palestinian fire.

A detailed investigation sponsored by Miller's colleagues, family, and friends and conducted by British security consultant Chris Cobb-Smith of the security company Chiron Resources Limited, however, concluded that IDF soldiers "consciously and deliberately targeted" Miller and his crew. The report noted that the area where Miller's crew was operating had been quiet for about an hour before he was killed. Prior to that time, only sporadic gunfire was heard, but not in the journalists' vicinity. According to the report, it is reasonable to assume that the IDF troops heard the crew calling to them, and that they were aware of the crew's presence. At year's end, an Israeli military police investigation into the incident was under way. The IDF's investigation into the shooting has not been made public.

The military's previous record of investigating such incidents does not bode well for the official inquiries launched into the deaths of Darwazeh and Miller. Over the years, the army has failed to conduct thorough investigations into cases where journalists have been wounded or killed by IDF gunfire, let alone punish those responsible for the attacks. The same can be said for troops who physically attack or otherwise mistreat journalists in the field."

sooooo.........
how does this prevent you from bringing documentation?
or are you afraid the mossad will track you down for citing something out in open media?

[Sir Balor]

yes just ignore the sourced information and focus on what i took from memory
/sarcasm

now to win the argument outright

/thread

[Hitchkok]

yes just ignore the sourced information and focus on what i took from memory
/sarcasm

now to win the argument outright

/thread

where is the sourced document regardind tanks going through schools?

and if that is how you seek to win the argument, than:
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
22 people were murdered on that bus that exploded in the middle of Jerusalem. they were on their way to pray infront of "the wall of tears", the remannent of the old Jewish temple.

EDIT: and you know what is the worst part? that this became almost a generic picture in Israel, in years when every week there were two bombings in civilian places. restaurants, discotechs, hotels, buses, bus-stations, you name it.
let's not forget "terror" got it's name for a reason.
people were litteraly terrified to go out. my mother forbade me to take buses (i was a high-schooler then).
imagine that, if you can.

[MEZZANINE]

Israel is the only remaining occupation from WW2.

Even Germany and Japan got their countries back under their own control eventually, so why should Palestine, a bit player of the AXIS at best still be occupied ?

1) Because USA / NATA want a friend in the region

2) Religion, USA have a far greater Jewish population than Muslim, and a large % of wealthy Jews who support Israels formation and defense.

I dont agree with suicide bombing civilian targets but if my homeland Wales had been given by foreigners to other foreigners, and the Welsh population boxed into a small worthless part of the county I would fight to free my countries freedom too.

I dont support Muslims on religious grounds either, I personally think all religions are a horrible outdated concept that have caused more death and suffering than anything else in history, and history is where Religion should be relegated to, it has no place in a modern educated world.

[Hitchkok]

Israel is the only remaining occupation from WW2.

Even Germany and Japan got their countries back under their own control eventually, so why should Palestine, a bit player of the AXIS at best still be occupied ?

1) Because USA / NATA want a friend in the region

2) Religion, USA have a far greater Jewish population than Muslim, and a large % of wealthy Jews who support Israels formation and defense.

I dont agree with suicide bombing civilian targets but if my homeland Wales had been given by foreigners to other foreigners, and the Welsh population boxed into a small worthless part of the county I would fight to free my countries freedom too.

I dont support Muslims on religious grounds either, I personally think all religions are a horrible outdated concept that have caused more death and suffering than anything else in history, and history is where Religion should be relegated to, it has no place in a modern educated world.

there are two factual problems with your post:
the minor one is that israel was established three years after the end of the second world war, and not during it.
the second, and major one is that there was never an independent Palestinian state (if you exclude the present day autonomuos regime in Gaza and the west bank, that is).

at the dawn of the 20th century, the area was controlled by the ottoman empire.
in 1920, the british mandate was established.
in 1948 the UN accepted the partition plan. israel declared independence in the borders set by the partition plan. no similar declaration was made by any Arab faction. israel was attcked by five sovereign Arab states (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan).
The areas now under dispute, Gaza and the west bank (and again, let me remind you that the absence of Israely troops in Gaza means it can not be reffered to as "occupied territory"), were then under the rule of, respectively, Egypt and Jordan.
both did not grant to the Palestinian a fraction of the rights they have been granted by Israel.
now, would the "Israely occopation" cease, who would reclaim the land?
Egypt? they don't want it. israel offered it during the 1978-1979 peace talks, and Egypt refused to take it.
Jordan? they didn't make one claim to the west bank during the 1994 peace talks.
the british crown? yea, right.
the ottoman empire? no such thing anymore.
the crusaders? the roman empire?

there is today an independent palestinian state, under palesinian elected government. there are two, one in Gaza, and the second in the west bank.
that's more than has ever been.

[Mister Sandman]

And there right at the end you see a typical Israeli response, that of belittling those who dont agree with them and trying to cast a negative light on them.

This is part of the problem as well, but then Israeli's will never see or admit that their attitude plays a huge part in the problem too.

Nevermind, I think i'll stop wasting my time.

/exits thread

I did not realize SandMan's position here... I thought he was agreeing with Kit-Fox...

:: agrees with Kit-Fox in the cited quotation ::

Never said i agreed or disagreed
thought i was funny though....

There is no real evidence to say why Israel should not exist.
The fact it it does,

Does it do immoral things? well you have to define morality.
TBH there are far worse countries....

IT seems that people have forgotten the old style of conquering a land...
too much politics... the land was rightfully conquered and bought.....

Not my problem that the people who sold the land sold out their own people...

There is a reason why the jews are rich, because they dont sell land and know how to enterprise, the Torah actually has alot of good advice about handling money.

[HonoredSLayer]

hhmmm to be honest.
i am kind of evil so i think we should just get rid of them somehow and be done with it.
i am not talking about war i am talking about a complete nuclear strike on the world. hmm but the downside is some other players have nukes so it might come down to global nuclear war which is just a different situation.

back on topic.
i think we should support countries who are clearly against israel and let them deal with them as they would.

again i think the land should be a nuclear wasteland from how much trouble it gives us. but thats just me.

[~Invisible fox~]

hummm intresting topic .. i've read some disturbing comments thow .. bit sad..

[[KMA]Avenger]

you read 9 pages of this thread and "a bit sad" is all you have to say?

[~Invisible fox~]

you read 9 pages of this thread and "a bit sad" is all you have to say?

well... no..
i didnt read it all.. from what i've been reading randomly it seems like some ppls badly wrong.. and yes.. its sad .

[[KMA]Avenger]

my mistake, you only read some of the thread and not all 9 pages.

a bit wrong?! care to elaborate, something other than "a bit sad"?

[~Invisible fox~]

you might want to point the problem out to me.

you mean, aside from the theft of land and all the murdering of innocent men woman and children that's been going on for the past 65 years because you lot didn't have a "home" of your own?

That is completely absurd.

says you, i doubt the dead on both sides would see it your way!

And Israels claim is based on the fact that they murdered & commited genocide to clear the land of its original inhabitants. Seriously, its in your own religious books that

God promised?? If he promised why did he require you to kill (which is against his word) to claim the land.

Also to JT, Israel survives even surrounded by those who dont like/appreciate it because it is backed both economically & militarily by the US. Without this backing Israel would not survive in a conflict with its neighbours.

I beg to differ there bud, That land is the land flowing with milk and honey, and IF the USA ever forsook Israel surely as I am typing this reply the USA will crumble and fall.."For I will bless those that bless you and I will curse those that curse you"

LMAO...what planet are you living on "bud"? the US is crumbling anyway, every single nation on this planet is looking to dump the dollar as the worlds currency and are also wanting to trade oil in any currency except dollars, and you think the US is fine and dandy?


flowing with milk and honey?! i assume your referring to the Israeli side of the fence?

there's 1 thing about this particular topic that stands out like boy George at a gymnasium, and that's the absolute BS that comes out of the Israeli and Israeli supporters side

man, you must really think we are as gullible as a child if you think that last post of yours has any credibility in our eyes


i curse Israel, not because of their race, religion or creed, but because of Israelis blatant acts of crimes against humanity and its conduct towards its very own allies...there...i said it, and as sure as i'm writing this response...i'm positive God would agree with me...in fact, i would bet my life most of the world would agree with me as well!

here.. your post for example..
your mined have been poisoned so badly that u just cant see the truth .so i fined no reason to expand my old posts.

althow theres few ppls in here that much diffrent, and i salute those ppls. good work.
been add.*