will the EU collapse?

[[KMA]Avenger]

with all the problems facing Greece and now Portugal, Spain and very soon the Italians, is the EU on borrowed time as it makes Greece a protectorate?

seems to me that Greece was doing just fine before it joined the EU. Greece had 1 of the worlds biggest shipping industries and was booming, now they have SERIOUS problems and could well be the first domino to fall in the sham that is the EU.

i'm VERY biased (obviously) and Greece's problems please me no end, not because i want to see Greece suffer under the EU but because it exposes what i've been saying to people like pops who support the EU.

Hitler tried to conquer Europe by force of arms, that obviously failed, but after the 2nd WW someone did say (i forget who) that Europe would be conquered by economic means.

if making Greece a protectorate and the trouble facing other EU member states doesn't expose the EU as the vermin's nest it is to everyone, then we may as well bury our heads back in the sand and let the bankers and the EU have their way with us without so much as a moan or a whimper!


http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=h ... 6001627c7b

[Juliette]

Greece's shipping industry survived the 1860's, it'll survive this as well.

But it is a nasty affair, EU vs. these countries, agreed.

[Legendary Apophis]

I don't curently have time (going to university in few minutes) but when I'm back I shall have a look at some GDP/inhabitants and total, before joining EU, and stats of 2007 before the crisis, for Greece, Spain, Portugal.
And why not also the other, the HDI (human development index), which shows development outside of economic growth.
We will see whether EU was such a terrible thing for those countries.

By memory, I'm 99% sure Portugal/Spain grew up ALOT since they joined EU GDP wise. But well I will provide sources when I'm back in few hours so you can see a proof.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i dont care about growth and what was before vs what is now...

what is now is economic meltdown on a scale the world has never seen before!

Greece has i think 27% (not 100% sure) unemployment rate, dont be surprised if those unemployed turn to violence because in any country where they have their own currency they have a few ways to combat the problems such as those faced by Greece, devaluing the currency is one such way, none of which are open to Greece because they are locked in to the Euro through treaties.

Greece only has 2 options open to her, a bailout or default on their debts...what do you think will happen to the Euro if they take either of those 2 options?

and just for the record...in the mountain of paperwork that is the treaties Greece is locked into, nowhere is a bailout allowed under EU rules and regulations!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmidPjQ ... re=related

[Legendary Apophis]

i dont care about growth and what was before vs what is now...

what is now is economic meltdown on a scale the world has never seen before!

Greece has i think 27% (not 100% sure) unemployment rate, dont be surprised if those unemployed turn to violence because in any country where they have their own currency they have a few ways to combat the problems such as those faced by Greece, devaluing the currency is one such way, none of which are open to Greece because they are locked in to the Euro through treaties.

Greece only has 2 options open to her, a bailout or default on their debts...what do you think will happen to the Euro if they take either of those 2 options?

and just for the record...in the mountain of paperwork that is the treaties Greece is locked into, nowhere is a bailout allowed under EU rules and regulations!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmidPjQ ... re=related

First they better not ruin my travel to Greece in next week organized by uni.
Secondly, as promised, I don't care if you conveniently don't care . It still shows something. Denial with head in the sand when crisis is on to blame everything and conveniently ignore positiveness brought by EU, and for that I don't fall.

HDI
[spoiler]

Code: Select all

Rank   Country/Region   1975   1980   1985   1990   1995   2000   2005
13   Spain      0.846   0.863   0.877   0.896   0.914   0.932   0.949
24   Greece      0.841   0.856   0.869   0.877   0.882   0.897   0.926
29   Portugal      0.793   0.807   0.829   0.855   0.885   0.904   0.89

http://www.photius.com/rankings/human_d ... -2005.html[/spoiler]

GDP
[spoiler]Currency: current international $
http://www.indexmundi.com/portugal/gdp_ ... _(ppp).html

Code: Select all

Portugal
1986   7301.915   
2006   20875.69

http://www.indexmundi.com/spain/gdp_per ... _(ppp).html

Code: Select all

1986  10278.656
2006   28839.433

1986= date of joining the EU.


http://www.indexmundi.com/greece/gdp_pe ... _(ppp).html

Code: Select all

1981  9059.461   
2006   27392.879

1981: join date in the EU[/spoiler]

Now, let's all blame the EU for progress made in those countries within last 30 years!

What you said is TYPICAL. DENY all progresses made on last decades thanks to EU, but when there's problems within said countries...it's EU fault! They probably grew by themselves but strangely enough for bad things it's EU fault. As I said, TYPICAL bad faith!

[Juliette]

Your data is without merit.

You need a comparison with a country outside the EU, but within the European sphere of influence; NORWAY, or Switzerland, and compare that data with the Portugal/Spain/Greece data.
If Norway and Switzerland had similar growth/happiness, that makes the influence of being a member of the EU insignificant. Then, it becomes a valid issue to consider that perhaps the cost of being part of the EU outweigh the benefits. After all, Norway and Switzerland do just as well without the EU..

[Legendary Apophis]

Your data is without merit.

You need a comparison with a country outside the EU, but within the European sphere of influence; NORWAY, or Switzerland, and compare that data with the Portugal/Spain/Greece data.
If Norway and Switzerland had similar growth/happiness, that makes the influence of being a member of the EU insignificant. Then, it becomes a valid issue to consider that perhaps the cost of being part of the EU outweigh the benefits. After all, Norway and Switzerland do just as well without the EU..

Your data doesn't fit either.
It's like comparing Germany with let's say Albania. If you compare both, you will think EU is undoubtfully better than being out of it.
Comparing different kind of coutries from the start, doesn't work.

I'm sure you know from where those three countries came from and what kind of economy, totally different to Switzerland?

Norway vs Sweden or Finland, or Switzerland vs Luxembourg, NOW, that would be accurate.

[Juliette]

So find a **Filtered** country that is similar to Greece outside the EU.

To illustrate: statistical research proves that 1 in 5 people in France are cowards.
Now, with that figure, you can go and complain about how many French are cowards, but without accurate data to compare that to it's meaningless.

For example, if someone provides you with the data on Germany: 1 in 100 people are cowards; or Italy: 1 in 2 people are cowards; or China: 1 in 50 are cowards.
Now you can say that the French compare so and so to other nations. Now your statistics mean something. Just citing the growth of some nation is worthless.


I urge you to look at Lithuania and Latvia over the past 10 years, but don't take 2009 into account. Ignore 2009, and Lithuania and Latvia are amazing growth nations. Consider 2009, and they're back to where they were.

All in all, your statement has about as much value as a shampoo commercial saying it's been "Clinically tested". It leaves you wanting more data. What was it tested for? What were the results? And most of all.. how does it compare to other shampoos.

[Legendary Apophis]

So find a **Filtered** country that is similar to Greece outside the EU.

I'm sorry but considering USSR and its satellites before 1989, it's quite limited amount of countries available to fit those three countries in 1980s...infact those three countries were more or less of the same kind. But otherwise...

To illustrate: statistical research proves that 1 in 5 people in France are cowards.
Now, with that figure, you can go and complain about how many French are cowards, but without accurate data to compare that to it's meaningless.

For example, if someone provides you with the data on Germany: 1 in 100 people are cowards; or Italy: 1 in 2 people are cowards; or China: 1 in 50 are cowards.
Now you can say that the French compare so and so to other nations. Now your statistics mean something. Just citing the growth of some nation is worthless.

GDP/capita is a proven kind of statistic, so is HDI, it's not about confronting professional statistic with personal investigation you did by yourself randomly with totally different money support between yours and professional stats. The basis is the same. That's why they are worth considering.

I urge you to look at Lithuania and Latvia over the past 10 years, but don't take 2009 into account. Ignore 2009, and Lithuania and Latvia are amazing growth nations. Consider 2009, and they're back to where they were.

I will...
I have found every year GDP/capita for three countries, but I thought it would be boring to expose them year per year from start date to end date (1981 or 1986 to 2006)

All in all, your statement has about as much value as a shampoo commercial saying it's been "Clinically tested". It leaves you wanting more data. What was it tested for? What were the results? And most of all.. how does it compare to other shampoos.

Difference being...AGAIN, GDP/capita isn't the kind of stats everybody would agree to be unworkable on. So your point isn't valid.

[[KMA]Avenger]

OB, has pretty much summed it all up as far as development and growth go...

but let me ask you this pops...what the hell good do all those stats of yours do for Greece and her problems RIGHT NOW?

what should the EU say to Greece now..."dont worry mates, your country might be bankrupt and the unemployed % is going to get bigger BUT we have stats you can enjoy!"

the biggest problem Greece is NOT their economic crises regardless of who is to blame, their biggest problem by far is the fact that because they are locked into the EU and have to abide by EU regulations, they have no room manoeuvre. in short, if the Greek Govt wasn't locked into the EU and they get caught cooking the books, the voters in Greece can kick out the Govt of power and vote in a new Govt which can take over and implement any number of things to get themselves out of trouble...an option or luxury (depending on you POV) that is now closed to them because they have given up that right. meaning, regardless of who is in power in Greece they cannot sort things out.

make no mistake, this is a MAJOR problem that is being downplayed by everyone and i can see the EU imploding...


i pray to God it happens!!!



a funny vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBl1ktd4 ... o_response

[Hitchkok]

So find a **Filtered** country that is similar to Greece outside the EU.

hmmmmmmmm..........
Turkey?
any way, to answer the question, no. the EU won't collapse (not anytime soon, anyway).
will it become a US model superpower? sure, a day after pigs will fly over hell's ice rink. to many nationality ego's, and to big ones at that.
to simplify: to truly become a union, you need a common culture. the pivotal point of any culture is it's language. when 2 of the 3 most influencial states (france, germany, the UK) will renounce their respective languages you'll have made the first step.
when that's done, come back, and i'll tell you what's the next one.
and don't come waving the Euro at me, cause:
1) money is a matter of profit. ultimetly, analysis that show profit overturn nostalgie. languege is a different matter altoghether.
2) not all of the EU uses Euro, does it?

[[KMA]Avenger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlVFKBwbuU&NR=1

Nigel Farage MEP tells it like it is!

[Legendary Apophis]

OB, has pretty much summed it all up as far as development and growth go...

but let me ask you this pops...what the hell good do all those stats of yours do for Greece and her problems RIGHT NOW?

what should the EU say to Greece now..."dont worry mates, your country might be bankrupt and the unemployed % is going to get bigger BUT we have stats you can enjoy!"

I will say it again, when there's positiveness from EU, it will be avoided, however, when there's problems, like now, EU will be blamed. Sure, if they weren't in the EU, they wouldn't have same problems of results to give for EU such as debt % limit of 60% and things like that...but they would unlikely be half the way they currently are! (GDP wise) Nothing is perfect.

the biggest problem Greece is NOT their economic crises regardless of who is to blame, their biggest problem by far is the fact that because they are locked into the EU and have to abide by EU regulations, they have no room manoeuvre. in short, if the Greek Govt wasn't locked into the EU and they get caught cooking the books, the voters in Greece can kick out the Govt of power and vote in a new Govt which can take over and implement any number of things to get themselves out of trouble...an option or luxury (depending on you POV) that is now closed to them because they have given up that right. meaning, regardless of who is in power in Greece they cannot sort things out.

As I said above, there's no perfect scenario. There's troubles in every kind of situations that can happen. Yes they would be more free, but they would unlikely have obtained this growth if they didn't join EU. I don't have the energy to search and provide proves of what EU did to those three countries in last two decades, it's been a while I read those infos and don't recall where I found them. I'm not in holidays, I cannot spend hours looking for those, sorry.

make no mistake, this is a MAJOR problem that is being downplayed by everyone and i can see the EU imploding...


i pray to God it happens!!!

Then be sure to learn Chinese for when European countries will become a real protectorate, not like this idiotic UKip politician said in his attention seeking attack in Parliamant about Greece.

Edit: oh looks like while posted you linked us to this attention seeking idiotic politician performance.

"Oh look at me I insult Van Rompuy and say that nobody knows him while nobody outside of UK knows me either" roflmao hillarious.
Infact, before this video, I SINCERLY NEVER EVER HEARD IN MY WHOLE LIFE of this UKip politician, while I've heard several times about Rompuy, when he became Belgium PM, and then President of EU council.

"Belgium is a non country" or whatever he said. Now I call that an awesome argument.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DlVFKBwbuU&NR=1

Nigel Farage MEP tells it like it is!

Yea euroskeptics politicians are always a good laughing stock bunch and this dude doesn't change that.

[[KMA]Avenger]

pops, i dont want to upset you mate, i really dont...

having said that 2/3rds of you post is pure childishness not worth replying to and the other 3rd is simply wrong...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFPamjAY ... re=related


still childish?

[Legendary Apophis]

pops, i dont want to upset you mate, i really dont...

having said that 2/3rds of you post is pure childishness not worth replying to and the other 3rd is simply wrong...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFPamjAY ... re=related


still childish?

I'm not even checking that video.
Now you will watch what you say if you want the other side to take care about what links you post. I've looked at your linked video from before as it was already linked, and also displayed on tv, I laughed well, and thought exactly the way i posted.

I'm done with it. *checks watch* 1h30 wasted +/- on this thread.