order vs random.

[[KMA]Avenger]

this is something i've been pondering for the past few days now.

the universe (and everything in it) seems to me to have some kind of order to it, somethings are just to well...erm...organised (for lack of a better word) to be just random circumstance, our planets distance from the sun and the moons size and distance from our planet thereby giving us the total eclipse for instance. i've also watched a few programs about the universe and our solar system, most experts agree that if Jupiter didn't exist, then in all likelihood, neither would our planet as it is, because i have heard Jupiter described as the solar systems hoover, due to Jupiter sucking in most of the debris heading towards the inner part of the solar system.


this topic isnt only about our solar system, i've only used the above as 2 basic examples to illustrate what i'm trying to say...hopefully, you guys get what i'm trying to say?! .


anyways, is everything just pure chance, completely random? or, is there order...a grand plan, if you will?

[Kit-Fox]

The whole thing is totally random KMA, there is no grand architect masterminding the whole of existence or masterplan of any kind.

That of course doesnt preclude things like the rules of physics from 'masterminding' things on a small scale such as the order of our solar system and size/distance of planets etc (and yes astronimcally our solar system is a tiny, tiny part of the whole)

[Thriller]

the answer is 42, avenger.

This is a hard question to answer.

There was some spark in the beginning that set everything in motion, the matter( and what ever else) behaved in way that went along certain guidelines( what we can perceive anyway). SO its hard to tell becuase from the time of initial spark, until now; everything that happened cannot unhappen, and every action that will happen might have already happened but we haven't experienced it yet. There maybe even other demensions where everything went a completely different way or only a slightly different way and demesions for every possibility in between. Ones things for sure, our reality can only exist one way( the way that occurs). SO what im saying is don't worry about it and go with flow.

[[KMA]Avenger]

go with the flow?! you should know me better by now

come on guys, trying to have a nice non-conspiracy or religious discussion here, something that involves peoples beliefs and philosophical views, mixed with some factual science....hopefully

[Londo Mollari]

everything is "ordered", because the more ordered something is, the more stability it has

in the end...everything just wants to settle down and lead a quiet life

unfortunately, when that happens, then nothing will actually happen in the universe...and we will all die

[Brdavs]

Things only seem ordered cos from our perspectiv they`re moving supah slow.

You could argue that there is some higher meaning in the fact that we`re here at the exact point in the history of the solar system at which our moon is at a distance to have total eclipses whereas it was much closer in the past and will eventually drift out of earths orbit in the future, I suppose. But come one.

Space is big & old. Enough "tries in the course of time" are bound to prodice amazing results. Yes a shmazillion monkeys hitting away at a keyboard for billions of years very well might eventually type a poem.

[Mister Sandman]

Paradox, things being random have order, things that have order are random.


Looking at evidence, there has to be a creator, due to scientific laws, and being a beginning.

[renegadze]

going away from the solar system example.

As soon as you add a human element to it, there is no such thing as random. Take the lottery. The winner isn't random, because when choosing your numbers are are electing those to pick making it a choice.

When opting for a "lucky dip" you are simply allowing the computer to make a choice.

[Thriller]

going away from the solar system example.

As soon as you add a human element to it, there is no such thing as random. Take the lottery. The winner isn't random, because when choosing your numbers are are electing those to pick making it a choice.

When opting for a "lucky dip" you are simply allowing the computer to make a choice.

Can a computer make a choice?

[renegadze]

going away from the solar system example.

As soon as you add a human element to it, there is no such thing as random. Take the lottery. The winner isn't random, because when choosing your numbers are are electing those to pick making it a choice.

When opting for a "lucky dip" you are simply allowing the computer to make a choice.

Can a computer make a choice?

of course it can, I would imagine it makes selections based on algorithms written by a human

[Thriller]

going away from the solar system example.

As soon as you add a human element to it, there is no such thing as random. Take the lottery. The winner isn't random, because when choosing your numbers are are electing those to pick making it a choice.

When opting for a "lucky dip" you are simply allowing the computer to make a choice.

Can a computer make a choice?

of course it can, I would imagine it makes selections based on algorithms written by a human

But then whos actually making the choice, the programmer or computer?

[MEZZANINE]

The laws of physics govern everything, to take your solar system analogy, scientists can already see the bigger patterns and know exactly where every planets will be in a year, 10 years, 100 years etc.

It is said that if you knew the location, direction and speed of movement of every atom and electromagnetic wave in existence, and had the ability to plot continued movement and interaction then you could predict every event from now to the end of time. Of course we dont have the info or the ability to calculate a universe sized equation and probably never will, but just because we cant figure it out dont make it random or magic or the plan of some god.

As for people, we like to think we are something special, that we control our own lives but it just isn't so, we are highly complex biological machines, nature, our DNA, determines our potential, then nurture, all the events in our upbringing that shape our personality determine how we will react to future events in our lives. If we were smart enough to work out the math we would be as predictable as everything else.


In short, order rules, random is just a way of saying we dont understand

[KnowLedge]

its random.
Event tend to higher entropy(randomness).

to make things ordered, requires energy.

we exists because it was randomized
There are lots and lots of conditions that must be met for life to exist on a planet. that was all random. that also explains why we cant find anyone. its so random, that the probability is very low.


However, I personally would prefer that there was a grand plan, planned by someone. it sorta means my life and yours is actually worth something.

[stuff of legends]

Oh dear, this is going to boil down to a religious debate if not controlled. I would assume for many of us, if not all, the answer would revolve around your epistemology/world view/beliefs.
I believe that there was to a point some order and some at random, however nothing can ever be truly random.

There are lots and lots of conditions that must be met for life to exist on a planet. that was all random. that also explains why we cant find anyone. its so random, that the probability is very low.

So could i safely say that you believe in part evolution?
There is an extreme amount of conditions, an absolute phenomenal amount, such that its on the brink of being theoretically impossible. Even if the right conditions are met at one point in time on one world (because we just happened to be awesomely lucky?) that had to happen for every base species of animal/kingdom i.e plants etc (every differentiating living organism and i suppose even some clinically non living organisms) and that has had to happen in...13.75 billion years? The age of our universe that scientists have measured/calculated using the background radiation of the universe accurate to ±0.17 billion years.
At some point you have to stand back and say damn maybe we arn't that lucky.
I have heard of a few scientists that have just stopped believing that it all was random due to the sheer fact that whatever they have found has been disproven time and time again and hence they just search for something else to bamboozle people for a week or so again.
As i said previously i believe there was some randomness, but not reasoning our existence.
This whole shabam will eventually crumble down to you as a person thinking what is a stronger side, randomness due to no overseer or Order due to a higher being. No 'major' religion has their set of beliefs revolve around their god(s)/higher elders leaving creation (linked with death for Hinduism and Buddhism) to a random state.

[KnowLedge]

actually the concept of entropy is proven not only on earth, but also in space.. All reactions lead to higher randomness. and if you want to perform a reaction that leads to ordered, then you need to use energy. This happens in the Universe, everywhere..

furthermore, the fact that its random explains why there arent any planets around us.

as much as I hate saying, "religion is a way to control the uneducated without taking time to educate them", <-- this can be argued for this topic.
believe me, I dont want it to be like this at all. But facts are facts. and it was all random.