when demochracy and self determination clash

[Angnoch]

That place a **Filtered** storm right now and getting a sense of any objective and fair course of action on behalf of the people is probably not really possible. Until some form of representational government is worked out. So social justice will have to wait for order (that's seems to be the course as show by history).

but, does it have to be a representational government?
my point is that self determination "In politics is seen as the freedom of the people of a given territory or national grouping to determine their own political status and how they will be governed without undue influence from any other country." (a wikipedia qoute).
self determination is also considered to be a natural human right.
so if a referendum in Iraq (and again, i'm only taking Iraq as an example) would have shown that the population (and for the sake of argument, let's assume an overwhelming majority, >95%) prefer a monarchy or other kind of dictatorship, we have one human right defeating another (the rights to vote for office and hold office). can any of them be given precedent? and under what justification?

by that theory shouldn't any one of the millions oppressed daily in Africa be stood up for since they almost entirely lack political self-determination, yet no one rushes to the defense of those poor people despite the obvious need for aid. No, simply because there is no APPARENT necessity for the Western World to get involved in wars with people who are completely content to kill each other and not threaten our "precious and unique" society. I am quite frankly sick of the entire world breathing out humanitarian aid, or peace, or even environmentalism because none of those things rightfully exist unless society as a whole puts forth the effort to make them real. Western Society is far to greatly influenced by organized religion and in that sense we relied entirely on what the church mandated, even our laws are structured upon the "ten commandments" instead of determining our own laws we instead fell upon an old system that we trusted in due to lack of initiative. Western Society needs a wake up call to put itself back on the proper path of liberty and true freedoms instead of the bastardized version under which we live daily. I acknowledge freely that sometimes a strong hand is required to make people decide but forcing them to choose an option they don't believe in is actually considered oppression, and oppression is something that "we" supposedly exist to fight against...


oh and a little food for thought a Tyrant was originally a ruler chosen by the people as their own champion, the negative connotation was predicated when the third generation of a family believed they were entitled to power rather than a servant of that power and abused the position of trust that their family had previously earned

[Thriller]

That place a **Filtered** storm right now and getting a sense of any objective and fair course of action on behalf of the people is probably not really possible. Until some form of representational government is worked out. So social justice will have to wait for order (that's seems to be the course as show by history).

but, does it have to be a representational government?
my point is that self determination "In politics is seen as the freedom of the people of a given territory or national grouping to determine their own political status and how they will be governed without undue influence from any other country." (a wikipedia qoute).
self determination is also considered to be a natural human right.
so if a referendum in Iraq (and again, i'm only taking Iraq as an example) would have shown that the population (and for the sake of argument, let's assume an overwhelming majority, >95%) prefer a monarchy or other kind of dictatorship, we have one human right defeating another (the rights to vote for office and hold office). can any of them be given precedent? and under what justification?

Ideally i would like a nation to choose how it's governed through a majority consent among its people.
But there are realities that exist in iraq where the tyranny of the conquerer will need to be tolerated.

I beleive Liberty to be a conerstone of a nation, a pillar from which it can draw strength. For me democracy is the best form of government to strike the line between liberty and authority and i hope the iraqies will come to see that aswell.

The reality of the iraq situtaion lies around the fact that they are a conqured nation. The united states beleive that their former government was a direct threat to their freedom and national security. So any new form of government set up will be sympathetic to the united states and modelled on their form of their government. This can be considered tyrannical, but it is for the best of both parties.

The similar government idea is smart because the people of iraq may start to embrase the ideals of U.S in the process. Giving the conquering nation a sense of worth to the conquered. Thus making it so they won't have to reconquer Iraq, in a few years. It will also alow for stability to take hold so that the people of iraq can actually acheive the goal of government that represents the people. Because if the two nations can become sympathetic to one another i beleive their willingness to hurt each other will waine.

To avoid the nation from declining back into what could be perceived as a threat the new government is going to have to have to provide security, justice and social services that will please the public. The US knows this and i beleive a new democratic iraq government will be the best step in acheiving those three things. Even IF it may have been established through tyranicle means, I don't beleive liberty can be established from chaos.

SO basically i'm saying that although i bleieve in fundamental human rights, the realities that exist utimately will dictate when or if they can be applied to a nation. Right now order needs to be established and liberty will have to wait.

[Brdavs]

Only one issue there... there isnt really an iraq nation. Nor an afghani nation.

Reallity of the situation is that heavy handed means of solving a minute problem were used. Reality is that west & us especially fail to coprehend is that they`re not dealing with post ww2 germany or japan that allready had a national identity and a statly tradition but a tribal/ethinic jigsaw puzzle that is only ever held together buy supperior force, and most often only nominally.
Nationbuilding is a failure.
The race is now on to install a puppet regieme that will lean "our way".

You could at best argue that western nations have a historic responsibility to help sort out the mess their invasive policies of the past caused by interfering with cultural/national development in those regions.

However the notion of "more civilized nations" that would justify us in spreading the precious "liberty" has been found as innapropriate. The fact this "help towards our way of life" usually costs way more lives than would have been lost otherwise and that the new "government" is never particulary more "poeople/liberty friendly" but only an ally against some other foe etc. it`s hard to argue.

Its realpolitik at its best. I just pitty the dreamers that think "Liberty and justice for all" & "vision of the founding fathers" has any relevance other than a ideological iconography nowadays.

[Thriller]

Only one issue there... there isnt really an iraq nation. Nor an afghani nation.

Reallity of the situation is that heavy handed means of solving a minute problem were used. Reality is that west & us especially fail to coprehend is that they`re not dealing with post ww2 germany or japan that allready had a national identity and a statly tradition but a tribal/ethinic jigsaw puzzle that is only ever held together buy supperior force, and most often only nominally.
Nationbuilding is a failure.
The race is now on to install a puppet regieme that will lean "our way".

You could at best argue that western nations have a historic responsibility to help sort out the mess their invasive policies of the past caused by interfering with cultural/national development in those regions.

However the notion of "more civilized nations" that would justify us in spreading the precious "liberty" has been found as innapropriate. The fact this "help towards our way of life" usually costs way more lives than would have been lost otherwise and that the new "government" is never particulary more "poeople/liberty friendly" but only an ally against some other foe etc. it`s hard to argue.

Its realpolitik at its best. I just pitty the dreamers that think "Liberty and justice for all" & "vision of the founding fathers" has any relevance other than a ideological iconography nowadays.

Pessimism at it's finest.... although it's understandable.

[MEZZANINE]

Democracy, one of my favorite movie quotes is 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist' ( Cookie to the first person the gets the movie ). Well I dont believe in the devil or god or any of that stuff but I do believe Democracy is the greatest trick ever pulled by the ruling class to convince people they are free.

The only reason we are trying to install democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan is because occupied countries resist, convince them that they are in control and they become happy little wage slaves, working their lives away to buy the crap we want to sell them.

And the USA, the champion of democracy has the largest slave force in the world, More than 2.1 million people are in jail in the US at any one time, thats is about 1 in every 140 Americans, and they are used as slave labour to make many products from licence plates to combat helmets.



As for WMDs in Iraq, I've heard it said that we thought they had them, BS, we know North Korea has them and is just as dangerous but we dont invade them, we invaded Iraq because we wanted to stop them getting WMDs, if Iraq had managed to get them they could have defended themselves and attack other oil producing nations nearby, if Iraq had invaded Saudi Arabia they would have controlled over 30% of the worlds oil.

[Thriller]

Democracy, one of my favorite movie quotes is 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist' ( Cookie to the first person the gets the movie ). Well I dont believe in the devil or god or any of that stuff but I do believe Democracy is the greatest trick ever pulled by the ruling class to convince people they are free.

The only reason we are trying to install democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan is because occupied countries resist, convince them that they are in control and they become happy little wage slaves, working their lives away to buy the crap we want to sell them.

And the USA, the champion of democracy has the largest slave force in the world, More than 2.1 million people are in jail in the US at any one time, thats is about 1 in every 140 Americans, and they are used as slave labour to make many products from licence plates to combat helmets.



As for WMDs in Iraq, I've heard it said that we thought they had them, BS, we know North Korea has them and is just as dangerous but we dont invade them, we invaded Iraq because we wanted to stop them getting WMDs, if Iraq had managed to get them they could have defended themselves and attack other oil producing nations nearby, if Iraq had invaded Saudi Arabia they would have controlled over 30% of the worlds oil.

Yah democracy isn't perfect but your going to have to explain more how social stratification relates to that. I beleive the latter causes the former to fail and no the other way around.

[Juliette]

Democracy is the weak attempt by an incompetent government to shift the blame for everything messy that happens right back to the people who elected them.
REAL democracy, like the Greek did (convene the whole citizenry every 9 days to talk about stuff) doesn't work on a larger scale. Greece required tyrannoi to get their civilization to bloom, as people finally started to look beyond their own generation and into the future. Sadly, that paradigm has shifted back to "What is important for today". Living life on a day-to-day basis leads to piss-poor strategic decisionmaking. I personally blame christianity. If it had not convinced massive hosts of people that we are living in the End Times, we would still be looking to the future. Now it's all "OMG the world is going to end in our generation".. Bah.

And that, is why democracy won't work. We lack the guts to endure a little hardship to gain prosperity for our children's children.

Plant a fig tree, or a vineyard. It will take decades before they produce results. That is what the Greeks did, and that is what shows us they no longer thought about tomorrow, but rather focused on the future. It's a crying shame we lost that.

[Thriller]

Democracy is the weak attempt by an incompetent government to shift the blame for everything messy that happens right back to the people who elected them.
REAL democracy, like the Greek did (convene the whole citizenry every 9 days to talk about stuff) doesn't work on a larger scale. Greece required tyrannoi to get their civilization to bloom, as people finally started to look beyond their own generation and into the future. Sadly, that paradigm has shifted back to "What is important for today". Living life on a day-to-day basis leads to piss-poor strategic decisionmaking. I personally blame christianity. If it had not convinced massive hosts of people that we are living in the End Times, we would still be looking to the future. Now it's all "OMG the world is going to end in our generation".. Bah.

And that, is why democracy won't work. We lack the guts to endure a little hardship to gain prosperity for our children's children.

Plant a fig tree, or a vineyard. It will take decades before they produce results. That is what the Greeks did, and that is what shows us they no longer thought about tomorrow, but rather focused on the future. It's a crying shame we lost that.

So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

[Hitchkok]

So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

it hadn't turned.
it was always that why. demos litteraly means "rabble".

[Thriller]

So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

it hadn't turned.
it was always that why. demos litteraly means "rabble".

you can't just break down a word to give meaning to your interpration. Etymology doesn't really apply alot of the time

to illustrate my point
"Fornication comes from the word fornix, which means "arch." In Roman times, customers used to identify the brothels by a prominent archway at the entrance. (Coincidentally, we refer to the anterior, posterior, and lateral fornices as components of the uterus, but we also have a fornix in the brain, so interpret that as you will)."

Edit: Also i just looked up the etymology of democracy and it breaks it down to demos (δημος, which means "people") and kratos (κρατος, which means "force" or "power"). where are you getting your translation? Or are you trolling me hitch?

[Iƒrit]

It has to do with controling resources which are deemed important to maintain dominace. Place someone in charge and have an opposition to battle them so there is no peace, involve the CFR and UN. UN and CFR barley do anything, western goverment deems it important and take stand, force their will against something they themselves played a hand in creating all the while distracting the population while maintaining a strong trade with those placed in power. And when it all falls apart claim they have WMDs or that they are conspiring to attack, ect. something refered to as Problem, Reaction, Solution

Democracy= Goverment is the master, citizens are the servant.
Republic= Citizens are the master, goverment is the servant.

america is a republic, though mainly mistaken as a democracy but as we look at the bill of rights and constitution its really a republic. Always has been, Democracy has never worked will not work as its power is easily corruptable. When goverment ceases to be the master and begins to be the servant then freedoms can exsist.
When presidents stop using "exective powers" to force their will (Dictatorship), congress is able to do its job for the people which it serves, and the judiciary system holds other branches accountable for their acts of tyranny, and cease to cohersivly act on their behalf, then they serve the people, which are their master. Sense none of that happens its really a democracy, just citizens are to dumb-downed to realize the truth. Democracy doesnt and wont ever work, its about power being in the hands of a small group of dominate men, rather then serving the people which it evolves around. Goverement is about serving its citizens not controling them, which is why the only form of goverement that is TRUELY a goverement is a Republic.

EDIT - @ mezz - devil's advocate is one of my top 10 all time favorites

[Thriller]

I beleive the US describes itself as a democratic republic..... you can be both

[MEZZANINE]

@ mezz - devil's advocate is one of my top 10 all time favorites

lol the quote was from The Usual Suspects so no cookie for you, but thanks for at least reading the first few lines of my rant Devils Advocate was also a good movie but I cant think of any memorable quotes from it.


Back to the facts of life,

I just typed a very long rant about government and human nature, then I deleted it, this is the short short short version

There will never be equality because no one really wants to be equal, ask people honestly if they would prefer to be equal, or prefer to be rich & powerful

[Iƒrit]

I beleive the US describes itself as a democratic republic..... you can be both

“ The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government ”

[Hitchkok]

So you beleive democracy has turned into a tyranny of the ignorant? I can see that... that's why things like education are so important. Also we could use some actual leaders instead of just getting a micro manager in office. I think were going to move past the days of politicians making legislation through a focus group just to stay in power due to the fact the our generation has become disalutioned with the all flash no substance leadership of the past 50 years.

it hadn't turned.
it was always that why. demos litteraly means "rabble".

you can't just break down a word to give meaning to your interpration. Etymology doesn't really apply alot of the time

to illustrate my point
"Fornication comes from the word fornix, which means "arch." In Roman times, customers used to identify the brothels by a prominent archway at the entrance. (Coincidentally, we refer to the anterior, posterior, and lateral fornices as components of the uterus, but we also have a fornix in the brain, so interpret that as you will)."

Edit: Also i just looked up the etymology of democracy and it breaks it down to demos (δημος, which means "people") and kratos (κρατος, which means "force" or "power"). where are you getting your translation? Or are you trolling me hitch?

i am getting my translation from plato.
and also my interpration.
and i'll take a competent, benevolant dictator over a democrachy any day.
now, this:
"Democracy= Goverment is the master, citizens are the servant."
intrest me. where does this statement come from?
and please remember that both the USSR and current day china are defined as republics.