another POV

[Hitchkok]

How about you answer the question about why your Zionism is justified but their vitriolic politic is not?

it is.
but as i said, I, as most Israely citizens and Israel supporters, advocate a two state solution. youd be hard pressed to find a palestinian that advocates the same.
it is actually in both Hamas and Fatah charter. "the land under the british mandate is an undivisable unit" (OK, not an actual exact quote, but i did post the exact quote somewhere, and that's the spirit of it).
and what is really unjustifiable, is their acts of terrorism.

That Israel helps to propagate through their ideologically pigheadedness and unwillingness to make concession on important issues with the Palestinian people.

assuming this is true, does it justify terror?

[Thriller]

How about you answer the question about why your Zionism is justified but their vitriolic politic is not?

it is.
but as i said, I, as most Israely citizens and Israel supporters, advocate a two state solution. youd be hard pressed to find a palestinian that advocates the same.
it is actually in both Hamas and Fatah charter. "the land under the british mandate is an undivisable unit" (OK, not an actual exact quote, but i did post the exact quote somewhere, and that's the spirit of it).
and what is really unjustifiable, is their acts of terrorism.

That Israel helps to propagate through their ideologically pigheadedness and unwillingness to make concession on important issues with the Palestinian people.

assuming this is true, does it justify terror?

NO, did you not read what i have been writing

[Hitchkok]

How about you answer the question about why your Zionism is justified but their vitriolic politic is not?

it is.
but as i said, I, as most Israely citizens and Israel supporters, advocate a two state solution. youd be hard pressed to find a palestinian that advocates the same.
it is actually in both Hamas and Fatah charter. "the land under the british mandate is an undivisable unit" (OK, not an actual exact quote, but i did post the exact quote somewhere, and that's the spirit of it).
and what is really unjustifiable, is their acts of terrorism.

That Israel helps to propagate through their ideologically pigheadedness and unwillingness to make concession on important issues with the Palestinian people.

assuming this is true, does it justify terror?

NO, did you not read what i have been writing

then, don't you think you're talking to the wrong side of this conflict?

[Thriller]

How about you answer the question about why your Zionism is justified but their vitriolic politic is not?

it is.
but as i said, I, as most Israely citizens and Israel supporters, advocate a two state solution. youd be hard pressed to find a palestinian that advocates the same.
it is actually in both Hamas and Fatah charter. "the land under the british mandate is an undivisable unit" (OK, not an actual exact quote, but i did post the exact quote somewhere, and that's the spirit of it).
and what is really unjustifiable, is their acts of terrorism.

That Israel helps to propagate through their ideologically pigheadedness and unwillingness to make concession on important issues with the Palestinian people.

assuming this is true, does it justify terror?

NO, did you not read what i have been writing

then, don't you think you're talking to the wrong side of this conflict?

NO, because i'm not going to get sucked in picking sides. I stated that doing so would constitute a false dichotomy that the violence is continuing to feed off of.

The adherence to this politio-idiocracy sets a precedent that's goal continues the advocation of a false dichotomy. This logical fallacy continues a history of exaggerating the differences and understating the commonalities. Making chances of non violent resolution ever more difficult. Because peace becomes almost impossible when both sides are so jaded they can no longer see the good in one another.

This ignorance only works as a shadow under which the Palestinian and Israeli people will continue to suffer the ideology of fools unnoticed.

[Hitchkok]

How about you answer the question about why your Zionism is justified but their vitriolic politic is not?

it is.
but as i said, I, as most Israely citizens and Israel supporters, advocate a two state solution. youd be hard pressed to find a palestinian that advocates the same.
it is actually in both Hamas and Fatah charter. "the land under the british mandate is an undivisable unit" (OK, not an actual exact quote, but i did post the exact quote somewhere, and that's the spirit of it).
and what is really unjustifiable, is their acts of terrorism.

That Israel helps to propagate through their ideologically pigheadedness and unwillingness to make concession on important issues with the Palestinian people.

assuming this is true, does it justify terror?

NO, did you not read what i have been writing

then, don't you think you're talking to the wrong side of this conflict?

NO, because i'm not going to get sucked in picking sides. I stated that doing so would constitute a false dichotomy that the violence is continuing to feed off of.

The adherence to this politio-idiocracy continues to set a precedent that's goal continues the advocation of a false dichotomy. This logical fallacy continues a history of exaggerating the differences and understating the commonalities. Making chances of non violent resolution ever more difficult. Because peace becomes almost impossible when both sides are so jaded they can no longer see the good in one another.

This ignorance only works as a shadow under which the Palestinian and Israeli people will continue to suffer the ideology of fools unnoticed.

all i'm saying is, there's one side to this conflict which both major factions of consistently refuse a "non violent resolution", and one side that both major factions of persue such "non violent resolution".
and may i remind you that:
Benjamin Netanyahu, current PM declared his support of a two state solution in one of his first speeches after entering office.
Ehud Olmert, former prime minister, pushed for further evacuation from Judea and the Shomron ("the west bank") (an evacuation he did not follow through after an uprising in the same area following the war in Lebanon in 2006).
Ariel Sharon, PM before Ehud Olmert, evacuated all Israely civilian and military presence from Gaza and the northern Shomron.
Ehud Barak, PM before Sharon, withdrew all military forces from Lebanon.
Yitzchak Rabin, PM from 1992 through 1995, signed the Oslow accords, which constituted funding a palestinian authority, assigned a land to that authority, and basicly plotted a course towards declaring a sovereign palestinian state. accords that where respected by Benjamin Netanyahu during his first term as PM, despite the fact he objected to them before being signed. accords that directly lead to an unprecedented wave of suicide bombing, stopped only by defensive military actions taken by israel (i.e., erecting a seperation fence).
may i remind you of all of this?

now, again, i'm not trying to demonize the palestinian people. but their leadership leads them on a one way collision course.
no one in israel wants this collision. but if it will come, we intend to be the last ones standing.

[Thriller]

HA more political BS...

You have no context for your highly selective historical "facts"

Two state solution fails because it is essential drawing a line in the sand daring someone to cross.

Notice you chose facts to support only your side of the conflict; highlight your own entitlement. I will flood this thread unjust acts on part of Israel, if you can't start to focus on a few commonalities.

(There are still settlements trying to be built in palestine.

There Is also a sever lack of food and water.

Your barricades and constant checkpoints have essentially interned them on their own land.)


The 1993 two peace accords fell through because of injustice and noncooperation of both sides of your iron devide.

fter the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, the peace process eventually slowed to a grinding halt.The Palestinians living in the territories did not see their living conditions improve. No attempt was made to dismantle the Israeli settlements (seen by the Palestinians as one of the largest obstacles to peace), in fact the opposite was the case. The settlements' population almost doubled in the West Bank. Later sporadic suicide bombing attacks from Palestinian militant groups and the subsequent retaliatory actions from the Israeli military made conditions for peace negotiations untenable.

That is from wiki but it sums it up nicely.

Radicals on both sides don't want peace; they want to kill each other to uphold some retarded political agenda. Until you can see their BS and how it's affecting your world view, they will get what they want.

[Hitchkok]

not much time, so i'll only respond to this point for the time being

Your barricades and constant checkpoints have essentially interned them on their own land.

those barricades and checkpoints were erected during and followind a wave of daily basis suicide bombing in civilian population centers (i.e. bus stops, night clubs, hotels and coffe shops. to name a few), that took the lives of hundreds of civilians. it is self defense par-excelance.

and, BTW, why should Israel be obligated to allow palestinians to enter it's territorry? can any mexican who wishes to enter the US act on this wish?
palestinians in the west bank can (and are) travel to Jordan, and palestinians in Gaza can travel to Egypt (well, could, until Egypt realised they're smuggling arms, and built a wall to stop them from crossing).

[Thriller]

not much time, so i'll only respond to this point for the time being

Your barricades and constant checkpoints have essentially interned them on their own land.

those barricades and checkpoints were erected during and followind a wave of daily basis suicide bombing in civilian population centers (i.e. bus stops, night clubs, hotels and coffe shops. to name a few), that took the lives of hundreds of civilians. it is self defense par-excelance.

and, BTW, why should Israel be obligated to allow palestinians to enter it's territorry? can any mexican who wishes to enter the US act on this wish?
palestinians in the west bank can (and are) travel to Jordan, and palestinians in Gaza can travel to Egypt (well, could, until Egypt realised they're smuggling arms, and built a wall to stop them from crossing).

Again, not even close to accurate, no proper context. Your not even trying to be objective.

[Hitchkok]

not much time, so i'll only respond to this point for the time being

Your barricades and constant checkpoints have essentially interned them on their own land.

those barricades and checkpoints were erected during and followind a wave of daily basis suicide bombing in civilian population centers (i.e. bus stops, night clubs, hotels and coffe shops. to name a few), that took the lives of hundreds of civilians. it is self defense par-excelance.

and, BTW, why should Israel be obligated to allow palestinians to enter it's territorry? can any mexican who wishes to enter the US act on this wish?
palestinians in the west bank can (and are) travel to Jordan, and palestinians in Gaza can travel to Egypt (well, could, until Egypt realised they're smuggling arms, and built a wall to stop them from crossing).

Again, not even close to accurate, no proper context. Your not even trying to be objective.

actually, it is very accurate.
proper context?
suicide bombing -> checkpoints.
and don't give me the "they were driven to terror following your actions" argument, as we all seem to agree that NOTHING justifies terror.
not trying to be objective? i disagree.

anyway, i see what is happening here.
a debate, by definition, has at least two sides.
and as i'm representing one, you're being pushed to take the other.
so i'm gonna give one last argument, and leave it at that for the time being.
and this is it:
the fact that the palestinian leadership continually preaches and practices terror, if nothing else, gives Israel the moral highground.
now, again, as we all agreed that terror isn't justifieable, don't try and justify it.
and a disclaimer: having the moral highground does not justify anything else.
but when you're objectively comparing Israels mistakes with Hamas and Fatah deliberate actions?
please have the integrity to derive the proper conclusion from the "nothing justifies terror" statement you agreed upon.

[Thriller]

I'm simply trying to demonstrate to you how this 40 YEAR OLD hate cycle continues to remanifest itself.

If you don't want to consider that maybe neither of you have any moral high ground and are only playing right into the cycle of violence, fine.

But i won't give you any simpathy either for your plight if you want to be that close minded.

suicide bombs = check points eh.

What about killing aid workers going to gaza in INTERNATIONAL WATER!!, like what happened just this morning. You woudn't want them to eat right? If they don't get their food, they may get so hungry as to submit to your "two state"(more like FINAL) solution.
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... dChannel=0

[Hitchkok]

I'm simply trying to demonstrate to you how this 40 YEAR OLD hate cycle continues to remanifest itself.

If you don't want to consider that maybe neither of you have any moral high ground and are only playing right into the cycle of violence, fine.

But i won't give you any simpathy either for your plight if you want to be that close minded.

suicide bombs = check points eh.

What about killing aid workers going to gaza in INTERNATIONAL WATER!!, like what happened just this morning. You woudn't want them to eat right? If they don't get their food, they may get so hungry as to submit to your "two state"(more like FINAL) solution.
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... dChannel=0

you do understand that the movie that begun this thread contains photos of market stalls in Gaza filled with fresh fruits and vegetables, right?
there is no shortage of food in Gaza.
anyway, what ever cargo was aboard the ships (saving what can be used as arms, that is) will be transfered to Gaza.
as for this morning, the so called "peace activist" were armed for melee combat (baseball bats, iron bars and so on). the soldiers were armed with paintball rifles and stun graneds (and handguns, under strict instructions to use only when facing a life threatening situation).
here, watch for yourself how each soldier is attacked upon descenscion by "unarmed peace seekers" (EDIT: and here too)
and here's a recount of what happened.

EDIT:
i don't know who Richard Daniels is, but i got this link through facebook. worth a read.

[Thriller]

you do understand that the movie that begun this thread contains photos of market stalls in Gaza filled with fresh fruits and vegetables, right?

how do propoganda hitch?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7766509.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... tages-gaza


there is no shortage of food in Gaza.
anyway, what ever cargo was aboard the ships (saving what can be used as arms, that is) will be transfered to Gaza.
as for this morning, the so called "peace activist" were armed for melee combat (baseball bats, iron bars and so on). the soldiers were armed with paintball rifles and stun graneds (and handguns, under strict instructions to use only when facing a life threatening situation).
here, [ur=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrX7fznVgI&feature=channell]watch[/url] for yourself how each soldier is attacked upon descenscion by "unarmed peace seekers"
and here's a recount of what happened.


You miss the point again, Stop flexing your inflated sense of entitlement.
the point; WHAT the **Filtered** were you doing boarding aid ships in international waters

EDit; paintballs hitch?? you beleive that. seriously. If your from israel and probably over 18 then youve had military training. WTH good ia a paintball gonna do against anything.

[Hitchkok]

you do understand that the movie that begun this thread contains photos of market stalls in Gaza filled with fresh fruits and vegetables, right?

how do propoganda hitch?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7766509.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... tages-gaza

there is "food-insecurity" in many families in israel too, and in the UK and US, for that matter.

there is no shortage of food in Gaza.
anyway, what ever cargo was aboard the ships (saving what can be used as arms, that is) will be transfered to Gaza.
as for this morning, the so called "peace activist" were armed for melee combat (baseball bats, iron bars and so on). the soldiers were armed with paintball rifles and stun graneds (and handguns, under strict instructions to use only when facing a life threatening situation).
here, [ur=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrX7fznVgI&feature=channell]watch[/url] for yourself how each soldier is attacked upon descenscion by "unarmed peace seekers"
and here's a recount of what happened.


You miss the point again, Stop flexing your inflated sense of entitlement.
the point; WHAT the **Filtered** were you doing boarding aid ships in international waters

enforcing border policy. preventing foreign ships from illegally entering our territorial waters, in par with standart navy protocols and marytime law.

EDit; paintballs hitch?? you beleive that. seriously. If your from israel and probably over 18 then youve had military training. WTH good ia a paintball gonna do against anything.
my point exactly. please remember that the "peace activist" stated they were not going to use any violence. EDIT: and the reuters article YOU posted coraborate that.

please remember that this was planned not as an aid to Gaza, but as provocation. it clearly succeeded in that.
read the new link i posted.

[Thriller]

SO all that food on board was for a barmitzpha?

I know it was part of some kind of political tour de force, but your overhanded zealous approach was a balatant misuse of force.

Since you said you were following maritime law, plz cite the article of international agreement you were following. (I already know you won't find it though.) Forget Somalie pirates, they got nothing on the islraeli ones.

and since when do you own the waters outside gaza. Ever since you interned the region with a strict blockade? OH tha's right you already own that land and costline; the muslims are just squating on it.

Seriously over 50% of palestinians are below the poverty line, there some terrible injustices going on there, alot more than just "food shortage"(very disingenuous).

[LegendaryA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo