An Inconvenient Truth

[Thriller]

I think Homo Sapiens as a race are only about 200 000 years old (give or take), In another 1.2 million years we will probably be very different in shape and thought from the way we are now(hopefully for the better). That 1.2 million time frame is also 6 times greater than our current evolutionary time frame!

This kind of scale when you think makes conspiracy theories and current sociopolitical BS fairly irelevant in the grand scheme of things.

What I think really matters is truth; and a truism concerning scientific knowledge is falsifiability. The current climate change theories being studied have not provided accurate predictable outcomes. Therefor no direct conclusions can be drawn yet about what is causing our climate to change. More reasearch needs to be done and jumping to conclusions will only compound the problem( If this is even a problem). Forming assertions based on unsubstantiated hypothesies is wrong. Especially when considering the political impacts they are having wolrd wide.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Thriller]

With regards to Thrillers post saying how old our race is, it should also be pointed out that most genomes we are aware of are unlikely to be able to survive for more than about 700-800million years (as far as we can tell)

Thats even taking into account evolutionary changes. So we dont really need to worry, humanity wont be around for much longer (on an astronomical time scale)

You are forgetting about one of our biggest advantages we have adapted.

[[KMA]Avenger]

what are we talking about, climate change (or however you want to coin it) and Al Gore's film which has been proven in court to be a pack of lies, or human evolution?

[Thriller]

what are we talking about, climate change (or however you want to coin it) and Al Gore's film which has been proven in court to be a pack of lies, or human evolution?

Both

[Hitchkok]

Do we ever discuss anything OTHER than human evolution?

[Thriller]

Do we ever discuss anything OTHER than human evolution?

Yes

Unless you mean implying some kind of vague obective meaning to word evolution.

[Hitchkok]

examples please.

[[KMA]Avenger]

what are we talking about, climate change (or however you want to coin it) and Al Gore's film which has been proven in court to be a pack of lies, or human evolution?

Both

is that according to the OP, or?

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[shooty08]

What I think really matters is truth; and a truism concerning scientific knowledge is falsifiability. The current climate change theories being studied have not provided accurate predictable outcomes. Therefor no direct conclusions can be drawn yet about what is causing our climate to change. More research needs to be done and jumping to conclusions will only compound the problem( If this is even a problem). Forming assertions based on unsubstantiated hypotheses is wrong. Especially when considering the political impacts they are having world wide.

We know how we are affecting the world. We are releasing more CO2 than there has ever been in the world (proven by ice core data) Does it matter if we know what direction the climate is going, if we know how its being changed? Shouldn't we be for preserving the status quo(e.g. a climate we know supports human life)?

[[KMA]Avenger]

Well KMA, as both topics have been mentioned it seems relevant to point out certain things.

While it may indeed be slightly off-topic it is relevant to the discussion about climate change & whether or not how it is presented is inaccurate or not.

IF you feel the thread is diverging away from your aims, post away in a manner to correct that, such as drawing the conversation back to your points and away from the distractions of side topics.

ah! nothing to do with that, i just thought we should be discussing the point of the topic rather than 2 distinctly separate subjects....


still waiting for Baxter to respond to my post countering his claims.

We know how we are affecting the world. We are releasing more CO2 than there has ever been in the world (proven by ice core data) Does it matter if we know what direction the climate is going, if we know how its being changed? Shouldn't we be for preserving the status quo(e.g. a climate we know supports human life)?

we are affecting the planet but not in the way you seem to think. environmental damage and climate change are 2 separate problems...well the only problem with climate change is that the climate of the planet is always changing.

as for "We are releasing more CO2 than there has ever been in the world (proven by ice core data)". that's flat wrong and its obvious you haven't read the whole thread since this has already been addressed and countered in this thread by Ghoul and myself.

Ice cores show that there have been times in the earth's past where CO2 has been MUCH higher than today and this has been independently verified by soil samples and geologists from all over the planet. some scientists who state that also go further and say we are going through a CO2 starvation period, in short we need MORE not less CO2.

i suggest you go back to page 1 and read my first post and then go and see for yourself if its something i have made up, or if it is accepted mainstream science that just so happens to counter the global warming scaremonger mobs claims of impending doomsday via "man made climate change".

[Ghoul]

In all honesty instead of trying to blame the everyday person and make them feel like they are destroying the Earth, if there was 'real' encouragement to at a grassroots level do something then some real change may actually occur.

Trying to tax Carbon- where is this money going to go? My guess would be into projects that will simply produce more Carbon. What about if it is taxed that money goes back to the community- buy back for some beautiful parks, community gardens, green spaces etc etc.

[shooty08]

If you want me to go back that far...
1. the glaciers didn't start melting in 1820, they started melting 12000 years ago at the start of the holocene period.

2. The holocene is expected to end in a few thousand years, like other interglacial periods before it.

3.Warmer temperatures may be a result of the heat island effect, deforestation, etc. Then again, maybe not. the sun, axial tilt of the earth, etc. may explain everything away.

4. My point was not to invalidate any previous points, but rather to bring up the point that we know what kinds of conditions we can survive and those are the conditions we should strive to preserve.

5. Nowhere in the previous points does anyone say the CO2 concentrations have been higher while people were living on earth. In my previous post I meant they've never been higher while modern man lived on earth, a mistake on my part.

6. CO2 emissions from cars and industry MATTER. All of that carbon was once stored in the ground. Man has found a way to put that carbon back into the atmosphere, by burning it.

7. CO2 is a known greenhouse gas. This means it lets light energy past it but reflects heat energy back at its point of origin. Means all those gallons of gas you put in your car are reflecting back more heat than our ilk are used to.
*edit: forgot to metion C02 sticks around in the atmosphere longer than other greenhouse gases. water vapor and methane(damn you cows!) are stronger, but don't last 100 years in the atmosphere, so little increases can mean big changes in thermal insulation because it'll build up.

8. Without the sun, the only life on earth would be extremophile bacteria that live in thermal vents, etc. and the life forms that can feed on them. Any propositions about blowing up our own sun should be kept as fantasies.

9. I don't care about climate-gate, the IPCC, or any of that. We are changing environments on earth, destructively so. Lets fix that. If we can use a carbon tax to do so, fine.

10. Heat affects ocean currents. Ocean currents affect the jet-streams. The jet streams affect weather. So while one may not directly cause the other, El Nino and warmer temperatures are related, not just correlated.

__________________________________________________

Now, all of that put aside. There are some good scientists out there that aren't in some politicians pocket. We are destroying the only habitat we know we can survive in and we need to fix it. That was all I was trying to point out. I have no doubts that the Earth will remain until a major cosmic collision, the sun burns it to a crisp, or some other wonderful catastrophe. But personally I'd like my species to live forever or die trying, that's what we're here for after all.

[[KMA]Avenger]

let me get this straight...at the end of all that, you think the TINY amount of CO2 man puts out compared to what nature puts out-is destroying the planet?



watch this and educate yourself:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 369613647#