The State of the Community: An opinion by Psi

[noone]

MLH you should post those ideas in a propper thread in a suiting sub forum

So people can discuss it

[Empy]

Okay first of all, if you think your suggestion won't be drowned out in this topic you're sadly mistaken. There is a sub-section for Forum & Mod Feedback, while I did already link. I can split your post there and create a topic for it if you would like?

AGAIN...

1, 1 year time limit for moderator and administrative office. 1 year Subsequent office subject to peer review.

2, No Admin shall dually hold leadership office in an empire coalition or alliance in game.

ie , removing the or limiting the chances of abuse of power.


Thank you for asking.

Per point #1 I believe I agree with Mordack. A 1 year term on Administrators might be good, I think that we might run out of capable Staff quite quickly. Why dispose a good Administrator, or good Administrator team, just to replace them with possibly incompetent people because you've run through all competent ones though? Like I said, it could be a good idea though. If you start replacing people below Administrator level though, you WILL quickly run out of people.

#2 is bad, also as Mordack pointed out. Running the forums based on ingame affiliation simply caused many problems, trying to keep everything nice and balanced. The system of your ingame status having no effect on your Staff Position is a good one. If a Mod becomes "biased" then you can make a complaint to make it clear to all.

[killtacular]

I do not think this is a random thread. Many people have complained I have contacted admins and was just shunned when asking simple stuff . This was done in private at the time it was not just one admin but 2. So all the people you call complain and make random threads aren't haveing a problem we are just forum noobs that do not know what we are talking about.

People should be judged for the job they are doing today, not by their actions in the past. In fact, while we can argue back and forth about who should have said what, it does not change the fact it belongs in the past. We make mistakes to deal with them and move on, bringing them up again and again is in nobody's best interest.

What I would like to know, is her past affecting her job here? I do not see how it could.

Let's look at what we can do better in the near future, instead of what could have been done before

We all have big changes in our lives that are more or less a second chance.

-KJ

Really? Although I do agree people do change people are people of habit !! That is why we look at ones past to see what they might do in the future. It is proven , and you have that one in the rough that surprises you.
Would you let a murder babysit your kids? Would you let a child rapist become a teacher? Because in the back of your mind you think they will do it again. They might not but it could happen your judged for you past nothing more.
I know who Juliette is and what she has done, I have let it go because people do change , but trust me I'm sure she is being watched.

+1

Good post Kill.

Yes becaues a Molester, Killer, Rapist is the same as a forum Mod who has made mistakes???

Kill I disagree completly you pick the hardest thing you can and compare it to a mod are you kidding me???

it's more like...

An alcoholic who had a drunk driving accident, Got clean and realized the errors of his ways... Should he not be allowed a licene ever?

or what about a common Theif who steals as a teenager to be "cool" gets caught and arrested should he not be allowed in stores?

Mistakes happen, there are extremes then there are petty things... Don't be ridiculous... Your smarter then that!

and if thats the case have you ever had a warning? because if so your ass should deffinatly not be allowed on this forum because god knows you made a mistake

I was not comparing a mod to a rapist, killer or a drunk. Humans for the most part do not like change, so it becomes habit forming thats what I'm saying.

[Empy]

I do not think this is a random thread. Many people have complained I have contacted admins and was just shunned when asking simple stuff . This was done in private at the time it was not just one admin but 2. So all the people you call complain and make random threads aren't haveing a problem we are just forum noobs that do not know what we are talking about.

I don't know quite what you're talking about, but, sorry the Admins shunned you. Perhaps they were busy, something. I wouldn't know, sorry.

Right now if you have a complaint or problem I would be happy to listen, in a PM, or you can create a topic in the "Forum & Mod Feedback" sub-section. Assuming it applies to Moderators, or the Forum.

[MajorLeeHurts]

MLH you should post those ideas in a propper thread in a suiting sub forum

So people can discuss it

Sweetie I posted this years ago in the mod forum when I was a mod ...

if you get my point

I think short of a civil war the opinions posted here will be moved to the public dump leaving nothing but more bad feelings.

Empy ...

1, clearly the term of service "subject to review" would accommodate a good mod or admin.

2, There has been enough complaints about bias to entertain the relief of in game leadership role by administrators. This should be done as rule not as an exception after the infringement.

[RoKeT]

MLH I love you but... How do you figure? I mean I complained about Biast Mods Months ago, Years ago maybe even, but those were different mods, more mods come and people complain about biasedness and they are different mods... So it's just a cycle that is never changing people who don't like answers they receive and they complain... now I could be wrong like as i've said i'm obviously not aware of your circumstances and what happened toyou, I can only say for me I complained aswell but about different mods before me others did, and after me others have we have all complained I think at one time or another about "biased Unfair mods' but in the end they are always different mods, you can never say who is a biased or unfair... Haz was blamed in one thread he is brand new so the time thing wouldn't work there either... I don't want ot argue but I wanted to speak my peice

[noone]

Sweetie I posted this years ago in the mod forum when I was a mod ....

In light of recent developments, and changes and things being discussed, I would certainly post it in the public section where it gets more attention.

What ever you posted 'years' ago ... is surely out of sight.

[Mordack]

2, There has been enough complaints about bias to entertain the relief of in game leadership role by administrators. This should be done as rule not as an exception after the infringement.

In addition to being a bad idea, it would be an unenforceable rule.

Firstly, how would you define a game leadership role? Anybody who is the physical leader of an in-game alliance? People would just hand it over to a figurehead whilst continuing to run the show. Or is it anybody whose on a high council or equivalent? But how do you prove that? We are not privy to the internal workings of all alliances. How can we prove someone is when they say they aren't? Please think about what you're suggesting.

[Cole]

Sweetie I posted this years ago in the mod forum when I was a mod ....

In light of recent developments, and changes and things being discussed, I would certainly post it in the public section where it gets more attention.

What ever you posted 'years' ago ... is surely out of sight.

Indeed. Different teams, different styles...

2, There has been enough complaints about bias to entertain the relief of in game leadership role by administrators. This should be done as rule not as an exception after the infringement.

In addition to being a bad idea, it would be an unenforceable rule.

Firstly, how would you define a game leadership role? Anybody who is the physical leader of an in-game alliance? People would just hand it over to a figurehead whilst continuing to run the show. Or is it anybody whose on a high council or equivalent? But how do you prove that? We are not privy to the internal workings of all alliances. How can we prove someone is when they say they aren't? Please think about what you're suggesting.

Not to mention leaderships/high councils change with time, which would be impossible to have a stable forum staff: changing positions every few months on forums due to in game things wouldn't make a better team, imo.

[MajorLeeHurts]

2, There has been enough complaints about bias to entertain the relief of in game leadership role by administrators. This should be done as rule not as an exception after the infringement.

In addition to being a bad idea, it would be an unenforceable rule.

Firstly, how would you define a game leadership role? Anybody who is the physical leader of an in-game alliance? People would just hand it over to a figurehead whilst continuing to run the show. Or is it anybody whose on a high council or equivalent? But how do you prove that? We are not privy to the internal workings of all alliances. How can we prove someone is when they say they aren't? Please think about what you're suggesting.

It could be easily publicly policed around here ...

seriously tho It should be required by any vetted or interested party beseeching an Administrative role that they relinquish leadership in any alliance , high council , or equivalent role in game.

One would hope that out of respect for the position , said person would be honest enough to police themselvs!

Im surprised you would imply otherwise as the people in line for Admin are usually honest and respected and should not fear checks and balances.

[Empy]

In other words, you are whining about not getting a response when you do not use the proper channels of communication? Oh my, I can see why that would be an issue. I hope you can find someone to help you with that.
Sorry, but your nonsensical generalisations are obnoxious, untrue and boring. Bah. I stick my neck out for you, and this is the pathetic reaction I get?!

No, I said I stopped using your "proper channels of communication" when I never received any response...how was I supposed to know they were even going anywhere? let alone anyone reading them

whether you find my "generalisations" boring or not is not my concern. Obnoxious and untrue? no
Did I say all mods are bad at their job? no
Did I say some are incapable? yes

you stuck your neck out for me? lol how so?

Like I said, the last time you posted a topic complaining about a Mod was January 2010. You may have sent a private message to one or more people, but I wouldn't know about that. As I've said, if you have a complaint about a specific Moderator then I would highly recommend you post in "Forum & Mod Feedback."

Sweetie I posted this years ago in the mod forum when I was a mod ...

if you get my point

I think short of a civil war the opinions posted here will be moved to the public dump leaving nothing but more bad feelings.

Well years ago in the Moderator Forum is not the same as now, if you think it's still a good idea. Like I said to Rene, if you have a suggestion then I highly recommend you post it in "Forum & Mod Feedback." I guarantee people, including Moderators, will listen. 1 former Admin has already said in this topic that he thought point #1 was a good idea.

I also guarantee anything posted here will not be moved to the Public Dump. It's my Section, if it's moved I will move it back. Your ideas will be listened to, I can't speak to the point of them not being listened to before because I was probably wasn't around.

[Noobert]

I've been busy the past day or so, but I will make this simple for the people STILL COMPLAINING.

Do you want to better this forum?
Do you have issues with Moderators?
Do you believe a Moderator should be removed for bias, corruption, etc?
Do you have problems with how things are run, and think you can do better?
Do you think any of the above statements, or anything relatively close to the above statements? If so, post a topic here.

viewforum.php?f=95

If you refuse to do so, you are just blowing smoke out your ass and acting like a whiney idiot. Take this post how you wish it.

If you wish for proof as to how far a suggestion will get you, take RoKeT for example. His post has made a discussion arise in the Moderator forum (even a vote) which lead to a 6 page discussion thus far.

Thank you for your time, and reading this post. Have a nice day.

[killtacular]

I've been busy the past day or so, but I will make this simple for the people STILL COMPLAINING.

Do you want to better this forum?
Do you have issues with Moderators?
Do you believe a Moderator should be removed for bias, corruption, etc?
Do you have problems with how things are run, and think you can do better?
Do you think any of the above statements, or anything relatively close to the above statements? If so, post a topic here.

viewforum.php?f=95

If you refuse to do so, you are just blowing smoke out your ass and acting like a whiney idiot. Take this post how you wish it.

If you wish for proof as to how far a suggestion will get you, take RoKeT for example. His post has made a discussion arise in the Moderator forum (even a vote) which lead to a 6 page discussion thus far.

Thank you for your time, and reading this post. Have a nice day.

Your true colors show like an arrogant ass. Be a leader and speak to us instead of speaking like your on a pedastal talking down to us.
Leadership doesn't mean domination. A leader will kindle interest, teach, aid, correct and inspire. Those whom he leads will cooperate with him in maintaining discipline for the good of the group. He will instruct his followers in the goals towards which to strive, and create in them a sense of mutual effort for attaining the goal.
I believe Admins and mods are leaders of the community and thus should act like one.

[MajorLeeHurts]

MLH I love you but... How do you figure? I mean I complained about Biast Mods Months ago, Years ago maybe even, but those were different mods, more mods come and people complain about biasedness and they are different mods... So it's just a cycle that is never changing people who don't like answers they receive and they complain... now I could be wrong like as i've said i'm obviously not aware of your circumstances and what happened toyou, I can only say for me I complained aswell but about different mods before me others did, and after me others have we have all complained I think at one time or another about "biased Unfair mods' but in the end they are always different mods, you can never say who is a biased or unfair... Haz was blamed in one thread he is brand new so the time thing wouldn't work there either... I don't want ot argue but I wanted to speak my peice

RoKeT I love you to and your one of my favorites. I remember when you first came on scene with a BANG and had trouble every where you turned. You were tenacious and demanded to be seen and heard. It worked for you ... and you seem satiated , Im happy about that.

But this is not about me or you ...

In the beginning of this thread it is asked by a timeless devoted member of this forum.

So, what is it worth to you? Are you willing to put aside the animosity to get new people in here? People who could contribute great opinions, and great ideas. Or, are you going to tell me I'm completely wrong, and that the decline of the forum was caused by another reason, that you can explain as thoroughly as I have here? I will be looking at this thread with great interest.

I believe the decline of the forum is due to poor design... and due to human nature it was predetermined to function at this level.


Preceded by ...

Lately, a lot of people have been saying "the community is in shambles", "no one wants to come here anymore", "the community is not as welcoming as it once was." From these observations, blame has been thrown about to all kinds of places. Turkey seems to blame the mod team. I would blame the community itself.

This has been a constant complaint over many years and many Users Mods and Admins. Most recently there has been a begrudged mass exodus of some long term committed players and genius forum contributors. More often than not it is as a result of a conflict with forum policy and poor forum management.

I dont think anyone is to blame here. The kids were left to babysit themselves. Surprisingly enough the Mods themselves were and are some of the most intelligent well spoken individuals Ive had the pleasure to read. Unfortunatly I found a surprising lack of professionalism, structure and respect within the infrastructure. I would attribute this to ego age maturity , game related rhetoric , roll play, agenda and in the end human nature.

On the same note and for the exact same reasons mentioned above one cannot blame the community.

To expand upon what I mean, in the past, members of the community(usually parts of the larger alliance groups) massed people for merely expressing their opinion on these forums. It was an impressive form of propaganda control, but it also destroyed the good feelings and friendship that existed before then. Before then, the "word" on the forums was respect. You could talk to anyone and expect to get some semblance of respect, we were all "equals". Once the massing started, it became an issue of "who's better" can control the forums, and they did, for a while. What happened, was eventually the massing caused a huge public outcry. The community could no longer stand it. Since they had no recourse in the game against the top four alliances banded together, they took it out on the forums. The forums became a hot bed of aggression and flaming. No more could you talk to just anyone, and have a good conversation. People were assigned sides, "With us or against us", "If you're not with us, you're biased." The truth stopped mattering to people. The forum became so bad, the administration of the time, decided that it was time to impose harsher penalties for flaming, and spamming valid discussions in an attempt to curb this aggression. It only half worked. The negative feeling has persisted, but the full aggressive "you're with us or you're against us" posters have decreased. Some things have changed for the better, and some rules have been relaxed since then.

This is an absolute and timeless truth.

I can say I am quilty of all of the above.

This is why it is difficult to mod, and this is also why I say a forum Administrator should not hold an Alliance or Empire leadership roll. It blurs the lines between forum and game. It causes undue unrest suspicion and hostilities therefor undermining the legitimacy of the Administration team and any valid argument.

You complain of how you "lack your rights" on this forum, but you do not know what it was like to be a Moderator in an alliance with someone, and having to mod them, and that person kicked you out of your alliance for it. The whole forum has a lot of growing to do in order to heal these scars, but attacking the Moderators is not going to help. The blame lies with all of us.

I would argue that the rights of the users are loosely defined by design and defined as needed.

Someone should write a users bill of rights. I have heard talk of one but have yet to see it happen.

I think what the users want is transparency and to be treated as equals and with respect. Again a flawed idealism due to the already in place blurred line between forum and game. Im not denying that its hard to be a moderator , but its shouldn't be you can make it as hard as or as easy as you want.

Limiting this to a time slot and subject to review for further service would encourage better service.

And this is not to say the moderators are blameless. I believe the moderators are leaders in the community, but only so far as "Servant leadership". They are supposed to lead by example. If we want a positive atmosphere for new people to come in, be able to speak their mind, and feel a part of the community, we need to be accepting of them. Not judging them according to our conceived notions. Correcting them of their misinformed opinions, and showing them the truth. The forums should not be about "with us or against us." It should not be about "I'm better than you, so I am not going to respect you." Everyone deserves some respect, it doesn't matter if they're new or old. I have seen many people go on about "They need to earn my respect". Which leaves me asking, "How can they earn it if you don't give them a chance?" This is why the Respect group was created all those years ago. As a positive move to encourage the rest of the community to accept others. With how the Respect group is now, it feels rather obvious, that
this community doesn't wish to become a fun place again. The pervasive negativity has become "a way of life" for the normal forum goer. I have long fought to challenge this, but it is not a fight any one person can fight alone. The community as a whole must make the move to correct the atmosphere of the forum.

Well said.

But we are all at fault right now if we agree that something is wrong and not try to fix it. Im sure we can go on and on arguing for days. These problems have been acknowledged by both sides time and time again. The debate is over the problems are identified.

There is no excuse for this to go on , we are all adults. Ive watched half of you grow up before my eyes. You are brilliant individually and a phenomenon collectively. I dont believe for one second that you are not capable of detaching emotionally and set aside animosity for long enough to build a blueprint for this house of cards.

Im not saying I have the answers thats why I wont make another topic in suggestions. Im happy to contribute but agreeably some things need defining.

[Noobert]

Your true colors show like an arrogant ass. Be a leader and speak to us instead of speaking like your on a pedastal talking down to us.
Leadership doesn't mean domination. A leader will kindle interest, teach, aid, correct and inspire. Those whom he leads will cooperate with him in maintaining discipline for the good of the group. He will instruct his followers in the goals towards which to strive, and create in them a sense of mutual effort for attaining the goal.
I believe Admins and mods are leaders of the community and thus should act like one.

Show like an arrogant ass? Where have you been? I'm an arrogant ass to people who refuse to listen to reason. You want me to be nicer, and be a leader? Take the advice given to you, instead of demanding more. Leadership doesn't mean domination, true, but I am not dominating anyone. I'm speaking to you as a player with Moderator experience, and telling you that if you want to get something noticed - this is not the way to do it. It will never have a positive outcome if you continue down this path. How long do you think it will take for the Moderator Staff to stop trying to please you? Each time the Moderators have tried you have disrespected and criticized them.

I am not talking down from a pedestal either. I'm simply trying to help you, but you people do not listen to anyone. I've had to repeat this three times already and nobody has done so thus far. EMP has suggested it, and nobody has done it. Why?

You want to me to stop being an arrogant ass? I'll be happy to do so one condition. You people lose the ego and work with us, rather than against us. How many more suggestions do we have to throw your way before you work with us?