Sabotage Balance

[jedi~tank]

the delay would fix being hit by mor ethen 1 sab hit in a sec, its not about sabing power or how many hits but against being hit more then one time /sec.

one can train 20 mil spies , open 10 tabs and send 1m units to sab u from each tab and the target get hit in 2 sec 10 times resulting in def gone and an acers jumps in without giving time to retaliate. in my view its a bug and should be emailed to admin

Yes but every player in the game can do this as it stands, the only advantage 1 person has over another is a higher covert, and if the lower covert is willing to lose a few million more covert agents they can easily hit the higher level, ive done it before, my 37 vs a 39, granted i lost alot more sabbing than what i would if i sabbed a lower covert.

So what is the real issue, is it that it costs the 37 more agents, or is it they are being sabbed to fast.....

So its easy, if you add a delay time, remove the extra troops vs nox.

Its more so a 2tril strike/70b def with say 37/35 can compete against a 20tril strike/20tril def and 39/37. And the army size is 3 to 1.

[GeneralChaos]

the delay would fix being hit by mor ethen 1 sab hit in a sec, its not about sabing power or how many hits but against being hit more then one time /sec.

one can train 20 mil spies , open 10 tabs and send 1m units to sab u from each tab and the target get hit in 2 sec 10 times resulting in def gone and an acers jumps in without giving time to retaliate. in my view its a bug and should be emailed to admin

Yes but every player in the game can do this as it stands, the only advantage 1 person has over another is a higher covert, and if the lower covert is willing to lose a few million more covert agents they can easily hit the higher level, ive done it before, my 37 vs a 39, granted i lost alot more sabbing than what i would if i sabbed a lower covert.

So what is the real issue, is it that it costs the 37 more agents, or is it they are being sabbed to fast.....

So its easy, if you add a delay time, remove the extra troops vs nox.

Its more so a 2tril strike/70b def with say 37/35 can compete against a 20tril strike/20tril def and 39/37. And the army size is 3 to 1.

Ah so its the normal then, those who cannot compete or dont want to, want it made easier,

Shoulda guessed that.

[xDaku]

I now of the opinion that is is completely fine.. and nothing should be done to halt sabotage damage. However maybe a reduction on the amounto fhits they can do.. or something similiar.

I think auto war after sabotage has one flaw: What if it's meant to be secret?

You're right. So what if during those first 15 hits, if the sabber is identified then at the 15th hit they get a war setting, if not they don't. If the sabber keeps sabbing after 15 hits, then the moment he gets identified he gives a war setting, that sound a little more fair?

Sounds good, but how is this going to help the game overall? It may help you who suggest it compete for a minute longer in your little war, but it does not help the game which is the people, or enhance game play. I see a post made that a 39 can wipe a 37 fast, well a 39 can wipe a 39 fast as well. And why would you want autowar after 10 hits? Just curious.

EDIT: In addition to the original idea I would like to add remove the 100 covert turns, and make sab a regular 15 turn.

This isn't about my war, or even my own gameplay. I'm actually suggesting this for the majority of players - who aren't even cov 36 atm. Most are still in their cov 30-33 phase. When I'm getting sabbed by a cov 39, and JT we both know that I've had a 1T strike and a 1T def sabbed straight through to 0, I want to fight back, that's the fun isn't it? Last I checked what most people enjoyed about this game was the onliners. What most people miss is the fact that it was possible for anyone to fight anyone in a battle of skill, rather than being limited to a few people getting ahead of the game with a little $$ (once again, not a complaint about money).

When I've seen most suggestions in this game so far, I've seen people basically suggesting to remove the power of covert levels to bring those big accounts ingame to a smaller level. I disagree, those accounts got there by pure commitment and they shouldn't have that taken away. BUT, I believe the smaller accounts who can't commit that much should still have SOME way of competing. Wit ha 3 second delay added, the cov 39 still has the advantage. He/she can still send in ridiculously low number of spies to sab with, BUT he/she cannot just tab sab the def/strike straight through and then get free a/c. If the opponent is online, he gets a chance to defend. That's the big difference in gameplay, that's what I believe my suggestion brings to the game for ALL players. A chance to defend even against the bigger accounts, without the big accounts losing any advantage.

The war/war was suggested just to add a more strategic and fun element to the game, you can't just keep sabbing with the delay on, you have to watch for that war setting. It has to be a combination of massing and sabbing to take out an opponent now. I think that would be fun. Eventually, you would probably end up giving a war setting away, but it'd be fun having to do combinations of both rather than doing one and avoiding it altogether.

I disagree with the removal of covert turns and using attacks. There are players with 40,000 attack turns, they basically have limitless sabs. A bit too much don't you think? The recent updates are taking a move towards strike on def massing again, I'd like to help push that.

And no JT and GC, it's not about the ratio of strike and def at all. I know I'm farming with that ratio JT, but you really think my complaint is 2 sabs? That's what it's taking a certain OE member who's sabbing me. If I have a ratio like that, I'm not going to complain about it, I know I'm making it easy to get sabbed. Even a 32 cov wouldn't have a problem at that stage. I'm talking about the onliner part of the gameplay.

This isn't about me, or my war, or any other war. This is something I thought of to genuinely make onliners more fun and more appealing, to EVERYBODY. For the higher covert levels, all this does is require you to spy between sabs, not that big of a deal. For the lower covert levels, you won't be getting sabbed down straight through now. It doesn't take away the power of sabbing from the 39, you still take low losses for high sabs. It just adds a more destructive element to the game, a risk of losing units. What's so wrong about adding the danger of losing units to an onliner? That's where the "skill" aspect of the game comes in isn't it?

Allies and enemies alike, please keep your ingame situations (unless relevant as an example) out of this, this really isn't about any war. It's about adding a possible fun and new dynamic to the game.

[jedi~tank]

The idea itself is good, but not really viable unless you package it with other changes. With this plan Thamuz can stay at 66tril def or whatever it is and nobody is going try to online that and try to mass it. Now, if he is online and he gets a 3 second delay on my sab strikes..even though my covert power is sufficient to get it done...well you have just added to the dimension of defense that this game already has way to much of.

There is no skill involved in this unless you count sequencial attacks as skill, and Ill be honest I had way more fun as a player when I was up against overpowering opponents and I got sabbed out, and rebuilt to carry on the fight.

The delay negates the fact its a covert op, just eliminate that aspect altogether and make this a mass game whereas in order for an account such as mine to mass an account such as Thamuz, my strike has to be within a specific range of his defense and I best make sure I have the naq and uu and turns to finish what I start not only for the short term, but long terms.

[Cole]

I like that sabotage balance idea.

If I get it well, it adds a delay between sabs, which is good (when on alert level) and also sets autowar after 10 sabotages? Well, why not? That, as long as the target has alert level, of course, may I add. Else it spoils point of setting alert, and point that no alert=no idea who hit you, but auto war set would go against it. Thus, only autowar for alert levels:

High=20 sabs before autowar
Higher=15 sabs
Higherest= 12 sabs
Higherester= 10 sabs

[xDaku]

The idea itself is good, but not really viable unless you package it with other changes. With this plan Thamuz can stay at 66tril def or whatever it is and nobody is going try to online that and try to mass it. Now, if he is online and he gets a 3 second delay on my sab strikes..even though my covert power is sufficient to get it done...well you have just added to the dimension of defense that this game already has way to much of.

There is no skill involved in this unless you count sequencial attacks as skill, and Ill be honest I had way more fun as a player when I was up against overpowering opponents and I got sabbed out, and rebuilt to carry on the fight.

The delay negates the fact its a covert op, just eliminate that aspect altogether and make this a mass game whereas in order for an account such as mine to mass an account such as Thamuz, my strike has to be within a specific range of his defense and I best make sure I have the naq and uu and turns to finish what I start not only for the short term, but long terms.

Serious question - How would you have massed Thamuz's def before the sab percentage increase?

I agree that defences like thamuz would be tough, what sort of other changes would you package this with then? One I've been thinking about is the losses on straight up massing being fixed, I think you suggested a lower loss ratio for strike?


And yes, this is with alert level. Should have added that in the OP, my bad. It's pointless to do it without alert level. I think 10 sabs is too close, 15 sounds fine. So maybe High = 25, Higher = 22, Higherest = 18, Higherester = 15?

[jedi~tank]

The idea itself is good, but not really viable unless you package it with other changes. With this plan Thamuz can stay at 66tril def or whatever it is and nobody is going try to online that and try to mass it. Now, if he is online and he gets a 3 second delay on my sab strikes..even though my covert power is sufficient to get it done...well you have just added to the dimension of defense that this game already has way to much of.

There is no skill involved in this unless you count sequencial attacks as skill, and Ill be honest I had way more fun as a player when I was up against overpowering opponents and I got sabbed out, and rebuilt to carry on the fight.

The delay negates the fact its a covert op, just eliminate that aspect altogether and make this a mass game whereas in order for an account such as mine to mass an account such as Thamuz, my strike has to be within a specific range of his defense and I best make sure I have the naq and uu and turns to finish what I start not only for the short term, but long terms.

Serious question - How would you have massed Thamuz's def before the sab percentage increase?

I agree that defences like thamuz would be tough, what sort of other changes would you package this with then? One I've been thinking about is the losses on straight up massing being fixed, I think you suggested a lower loss ratio for strike?


And yes, this is with alert level. Should have added that in the OP, my bad. It's pointless to do it without alert level. I think 10 sabs is too close, 15 sounds fine. So maybe High = 25, Higher = 22, Higherest = 18, Higherester = 15?

Were you around before all of these defensive inplements? And do you know why they were implemented?

Mass to inflict sufficient weapons damage and use sab as apart of the sequence, not the exclusive attack.

I am not against 3 second delay or whatever, as a matter of fact there are many Ideas in and of themselves I am not against..what I am against is making the game even more defensive than it is now.

It is creating a stats builders environment and with 200 members per day online from 1300 when I started..its not looking good. Make this a massers game, cut out the forum politics and backbiting amongst the people trying to cut each others throat for mod or admin spots and improve the graphics...then offer rewards of some sort to members for bringing in new blood.

There is a suggestion to increase the loss of coverts, now to delay between attacks. Whats next?

[xDaku]

Yes and yes to your first questions.

Mass to inflict sufficient damage, then sab, that's a good idea. That's what I originally wanted, but I was told it had already been suggested and it didn't go through.

What I went is for massing and sabbing to become a combination, not a separate attack force on their own. Atm, sabbing is a whole weapon as itself, in MOST cases. Not against the huge accounts and defences, I agree, but once again that's not the majority of the game.

I'm not for higher covert losses, that's a temporary solution. Once higher covert levels are achieved, that update becomes completely useless. Infact, I don't want this game to be defensive at all. It IS too defensive. My idea sort of takes a step in combining massing and sabbing, ATLEAST where an online fight is concerned. I realize the flaw in massing defences like Thamuz and Rodwolf, I'm looking for suggestions to bypass that.

A lower loss ratio in strike is one way to go, but would it solve the problem?

And with defences like T and RW, the problem is alliance repairs, more than the actual massing mechanics if you get what I mean. Alliance repair has recently seen another debuff, maybe there will be more in the future, maybe there won't, but I think with the current reduction this would be a good time to take another step towards strike on def massing.

[jedi~tank]

Yes and yes to your first questions.

Mass to inflict sufficient damage, then sab, that's a good idea. That's what I originally wanted, but I was told it had already been suggested and it didn't go through.

This is how it was before all of this update garbage, but a couple of people moaned about all the massing going on and pushed on the side to make the game defensive..then the landslide rushed down the hill and we have a stale game. Stats building on the level we have now is good for making $$, but soon that will run out when the war types leave .

[xDaku]

Yes and yes to your first questions.

Mass to inflict sufficient damage, then sab, that's a good idea. That's what I originally wanted, but I was told it had already been suggested and it didn't go through.

This is how it was before all of this update garbage, but a couple of people moaned about all the massing going on and pushed on the side to make the game defensive..then the landslide rushed down the hill and we have a stale game. Stats building on the level we have now is good for making $$, but soon that will run out when the war types leave .

I think this suggestion would bring back some of that massing. It's clear Jason isn't going to completely remove the updates he brought in, so we have to find a way to work around it. Maybe push for another decrease in alliance repairs, don't know, but regardless of this suggestion or not Thamuz and other such defences are going to be a tough mass - because this game is so damn defensive.

[jedi~tank]

Yes and yes to your first questions.

Mass to inflict sufficient damage, then sab, that's a good idea. That's what I originally wanted, but I was told it had already been suggested and it didn't go through.

This is how it was before all of this update garbage, but a couple of people moaned about all the massing going on and pushed on the side to make the game defensive..then the landslide rushed down the hill and we have a stale game. Stats building on the level we have now is good for making $$, but soon that will run out when the war types leave .

I think this suggestion would bring back some of that massing. It's clear Jason isn't going to completely remove the updates he brought in, so we have to find a way to work around it. Maybe push for another decrease in alliance repairs, don't know, but regardless of this suggestion or not Thamuz and other such defences are going to be a tough mass - because this game is so damn defensive.

I wont bother massing it, not if there is 3 second delay in every attack I have to make, it can sit there.

[xDaku]

You really think Thamuz is just going to have his def sabbed away? You're going to have to mass it sometime or the other. And this isn't about Thamuz, or you. It's about the majority of players, being able fight instead of being straight up sabbed out.

Most players do build coverts relative to their defences, or quite a few players do atleast. They can still easily get sabbed out, which at the moment is ridiculous. It stops people from building stats in wars. More stats would be built if people knew that they could actually fight for them, not have them sabbed out in a second.

Most players do not build 50T+ defences. Most players do not have cov 38/39. These same players are called snipers in wars, but what other choice do they have? Build stats to be sabbed out? It doesn't matter if the covert is relative, because the covert power you get from a 39 vs. a 36 is what...quadrupled? or higher. That + tabbed sabbing = no reason to build stats. Which leads to boring drawn out wars, and those are a huge reason why people leave this game.

Why wouldn't you take down thamuz if you had a little 3 second delay in sabbing, because straight up attacking takes more resources? Or because sabbing is easier? I swear you said a few posts back that you enjoyed rebuilding after getting sabbed out against higher accounts. I'm sure that rebuilding and continous massing cost A LOT. Is a 3 second delay instead of tabbed sabbing really that big of a problem, that it makes thamuz unmassable? I don't think so. I think it would just take more time and resources, aka a challenge.

[jedi~tank]

You really think Thamuz is just going to have his def sabbed away? You're going to have to mass it sometime or the other. And this isn't about Thamuz, or you. It's about the majority of players, being able fight instead of being straight up sabbed out.

Most players do build coverts relative to their defences, or quite a few players do atleast. They can still easily get sabbed out, which at the moment is ridiculous. It stops people from building stats in wars. More stats would be built if people knew that they could actually fight for them, not have them sabbed out in a second.

Most players do not build 50T+ defences. Most players do not have cov 38/39. These same players are called snipers in wars, but what other choice do they have? Build stats to be sabbed out? It doesn't matter if the covert is relative, because the covert power you get from a 39 vs. a 36 is what...quadrupled? or higher. That + tabbed sabbing = no reason to build stats. Which leads to boring drawn out wars, and those are a huge reason why people leave this game.

Why wouldn't you take down thamuz if you had a little 3 second delay in sabbing, because straight up attacking takes more resources? Or because sabbing is easier? I swear you said a few posts back that you enjoyed rebuilding after getting sabbed out against higher accounts. I'm sure that rebuilding and continous massing cost A LOT. Is a 3 second delay instead of tabbed sabbing really that big of a problem, that it makes thamuz unmassable? I don't think so. I think it would just take more time and resources, aka a challenge.

1st of all you started off good and now have gone to **Filtered**, its not about me and Thamuz, its an example and I never said it was un massable, I just said I wouldnt bother with it as I said CLEARLY making the game more defensive than it already is bla bla bla. Becaue I would revert to a defensive posture then an offensive one if there is a 3 second delay.

[xDaku]

Ok JT, I'm not taking a shot at you. Didn't mean to in that post, didn't think I did.

Second, more defensive? There's a new way to give and get war, aka faster gameplay. Sabbing is what people do to AVOID the war setting, quite a few people. This removes that.

If thamuz has a 60T def and this comes in, he can't sab anyone too much, can't attack anyone too much, he's virtually useless to his alliance. Those huge defenses become a liability. Rodwolf's is already a liability to him, Thamuz's will become one too.

So actually, unless someone's aim in this game is to sit and not make more than 15 sabs, or more than 300T on one person in 24 hours, having a huge def like that is useless. Explain to me, how is that BAD? How does this make the masser more defensive? You can keep going at Thamuz as long as you want, because if he starts retaliating he's risking war with you. Another way to achieve war/war, put and end to tabbed sabbing, this to me sounds much more offensive than what the game is right now.

[jedi~tank]

Ok JT, I'm not taking a shot at you. Didn't mean to in that post, didn't think I did.

Second, more defensive? There's a new way to give and get war, aka faster gameplay. Sabbing is what people do to AVOID the war setting, quite a few people. This removes that.

If thamuz has a 60T def and this comes in, he can't sab anyone too much, can't attack anyone too much, he's virtually useless to his alliance. Those huge defenses become a liability. Rodwolf's is already a liability to him, Thamuz's will become one too.

So actually, unless someone's aim in this game is to sit and not make more than 15 sabs, or more than 300T on one person in 24 hours, having a huge def like that is useless. Explain to me, how is that BAD? How does this make the masser more defensive? You can keep going at Thamuz as long as you want, because if he starts retaliating he's risking war with you. Another way to achieve war/war, put and end to tabbed sabbing, this to me sounds much more offensive than what the game is right now.

The tactic to use to avoid the war setting is to have a team and each member of the team take thier hits 1 short of the auto war.

When you start delaying attacks more so than they already are you delay the offensive. You ought to try it sometime. You load up and try to jack a 50 tril by yourself and you will see exactly my point.

He doesnt have to retaliate, alls he has to do is repair and with the delay attacks and current UU loss I can lose 2 accounts worth of UU massing.