Covert level should double covert action again

[Mujo]

i think covert level should double covert action again. reason is that we have bought spy levels knowing that they double spy action - perhaps we wouldnt have spent as much naq on levels knowing that they only increase it by factor of about 1.414. hence, terms were changed after we invested money in them - which is id say unfair.
also, spy level made big difference in sabbings before - now that difference is halved, ie person a has level 20 with 20k spies, person b would have to send about 10k at level 22, while before the update 5k would be enough, hence this also discourages buying levels to be able to sab better.
3rd reason - killing someones spies becomes easier - say person a has level 24 with 100k spies - person b needs about 142k on anticovert level 22, or 200k on anticovert level 21, while previously he needed 200k on anticovert 22 or 400k on anticovert 21...
id say this update majorly discourages buying covert levels
possible solutions i see would be:
1) downscale covert by fixed factor, or scale up level 1 cost(my other thread - http://herebegames.com/StarGateWars/viewtopic.php?t=27057 to maintain average covert in close ratio to average other stats like it is now
2)every player gets refunded for all levels they have bought in their bank, and they are given 48 hour ppt and cant be spied on at the time - so they can decide if they will buy levels again, on the new terms, or spend it on something else.

[comander zao]

u know to much math. that is confusing. i always like older stuff instead of the newer stuff that happens. im more of an old school person that is 14 yrs old. so i would vote w/ the spying that we could do b4 the update.

[Wolf359]

Firstly (as a mod) - this is not the right place for this - it is not a suggestion - but a comment on a game enhancement - so take it to Discussion on Enhancements (ones already released) - there are at least 2 threads discussing it there.

Secondly (as a player) - I prefer it this way as it makes spies more imprtant, and spy level less important - therefore those players who do not have a massive income / bank space etc etc blah blah, have an opportunity to more significantly increase their level through the use of spies.

It seems to me that the only people who have lost out are the ones with massive spy levels, but low numbers of spies (but spy level is NOTHING without spies).

The update was good, and it was fair, as it means that overall power is now not too overly affected by simply buying the next spy level - simply downscaling covert by a fixed factor would not have the longer term affect that this new method has.

And I simply do not like the idea of giving everyone their naq back - surely it is easier just to invest a little more in spies??

And - it's quite a strange post - you put together two suggestions to change what has been done - but the poll is to ask whether the old method should be brought back. Wouldn't it have been more logical to vote on you r 2 suggestions, with a third 'leave it as it is' option?

Thirdly (as a mod again) - MOVED.

[Reeb]

Well if covert formulas are going to stay where they are at, then the spy level costs need to be adjusted accordingly. Makes no sense to have spy level prices double every time but not give the same results.

[god]

Well if covert formulas are going to stay where they are at, then the spy level costs need to be adjusted accordingly. Makes no sense to have spy levels double every time but not give the same results.

although I agree with the thread author that it makes it too easy for people to just train mass quantities of spies to compensate for higher levels, I'm confused as to why it NEEDS to make sense? And why it doesn't make sense? right now, 2 levels double your covert... what doesn't make sense about that?

[Reeb]

Sorry, I meant to say it makes no sense for the price to double every time but not the results, I'll edit that into the post. I agree with the thread starter 100%.

[Radium]

although I agree with the thread author that it makes it too easy for people to just train mass quantities of spies to compensate for higher levels, I'm confused as to why it NEEDS to make sense? And why it doesn't make sense? right now, 2 levels double your covert... what doesn't make sense about that?

It seems to me the vulnerability of the current system is the fact you have to risk putting out so many spies. The more spies you have out the more that can and will be killed during times of war.

I personally do not like this part of the update, but that is not to say it is not a good one. Games need sinks in them. This creates a potential sink with lots of units getting killed from being spies.

[Mujo]

Secondly (as a player) - I prefer it this way as it makes spies more imprtant, and spy level less important - therefore those players who do not have a massive income / bank space etc etc blah blah, have an opportunity to more significantly increase their level through the use of spies.

yeah, i like that aspect as well - would require more balance from player's side between good covert and high risk and opposite. but thats just the covert part - i think it makes killing someones spies much too easy - not because people will have more spies, but because if you have a reasonable uu/miner reserve, you can hit everyone with very little anti covert level...
but basically part that i dont think this update was fair about is - we bought our spy levels on different terms then we have them now.
to take a real life example(which almost happened in my school):
we applied in high school knowing that graduation exam will be on school level( hence easier ), and after people were saying that graduation exam will be on national level(luckily - we went on the old terms, last generation that did as a matter of fact, while next one entered knowing that national level exam awaits them). point is, that we applied and entered high school knowing that on terms we entered wouldnt have something, yet almost we had, which would be very unfair. i think same analogy could apply here, as we all bought spy levels knowing exactly what effect they produce, and these effects were now changed, but our money is still in them.

It seems to me that the only people who have lost out are the ones with massive spy levels, but low numbers of spies (but spy level is NOTHING without spies).

i would disagree - they indeed lost much more, but id say all players lost, as they simply might not have bought next level and instead buy even more uu to train into spies(or miners or whatever), if they knew level they bought will lose good part of the meaning.

The update was good, and it was fair, as it means that overall power is now not too overly affected by simply buying the next spy level - simply downscaling covert by a fixed factor would not have the longer term affect that this new method has.

ermm, id say any downscalation of covert wont have long term effect - this update slowed the growth down a bit - but its still exponential.
this update would indeed be good and fair in my opinion also, if we had known what effect will spy levels have before of buying.

And I simply do not like the idea of giving everyone their naq back - surely it is easier just to invest a little more in spies??

i agree - it is far from perfect idea, it was just a thought. but seems to me that many people, whether "big" or "small" players(to some - getting level 20 is harder then it would be to get level 30 to others, so i dont think there would be much difference) would have not bought levels they bought, again if they knew
it would also get people a lot of naq "out of nowhere" and crazy amounts of uu could be popping up which would then be trained as either miners or spies with lesser levels and give way higher coverts then they were before.

And - it's quite a strange post - you put together two suggestions to change what has been done - but the poll is to ask whether the old method should be brought back. Wouldn't it have been more logical to vote on you r 2 suggestions, with a third 'leave it as it is' option?

i put the poll as yes/no because i wanted to get people's thoughts about covert level doubling covert again, and whether it would be done on one of other way i suggested - well, i considered that pretty much a techicality. in fact, both methods are pretty close together id say - because making level downscaled by say 4, would produce the same effect as downscaling by 16(2^4 - in fact it is that), only level numbers itself would be lesser...and whether its 10 or 100 or 16...is really technicality in my eyes.

Well if covert formulas are going to stay where they are at, then the spy level costs need to be adjusted accordingly. Makes no sense to have spy level prices double every time but not give the same results.

i disagree.
even if covert levels cost 4x more each time, and each gives only 10% additional covert action people would still buy them. why? because it always gets to a point where its more profitable buying next level then up your covert action by the same factor that level would give by adding spies.
to give an example:
level 1 costs 6 k naq
even if level 2 would cost 100k naq you would still buy it wouldnt you? even if it gives only 1% more...
because you could buy both levels by selling 1 uu

although I agree with the thread author that it makes it too easy for people to just train mass quantities of spies to compensate for higher levels, I'm confused as to why it NEEDS to make sense? And why it doesn't make sense? right now, 2 levels double your covert... what doesn't make sense about that?

again, it makes perfect sense as it is - only problem it is unfair in my opinion.

It seems to me the vulnerability of the current system is the fact you have to risk putting out so many spies. The more spies you have out the more that can and will be killed during times of war.

I personally do not like this part of the update, but that is not to say it is not a good one. Games need sinks in them. This creates a potential sink with lots of units getting killed from being spies.

i like the part where you need to find perfect balance. also, makes more point in wars, as to get some serious covert action you need to put more at risk now.
however - heck im not gonna repeat my arguments

heh, this was way longer then i intended

[adisus]

i think covert level should double covert action again. reason is that we have bought spy levels knowing that they double spy action - perhaps we wouldnt have spent as much naq on levels knowing that they only increase it by factor of about 1.414. hence, terms were changed after we invested money in them - which is id say unfair.
also, spy level made big difference in sabbings before - now that difference is halved, ie person a has level 20 with 20k spies, person b would have to send about 10k at level 22, while before the update 5k would be enough, hence this also discourages buying levels to be able to sab better.
3rd reason - killing someones spies becomes easier - say person a has level 24 with 100k spies - person b needs about 142k on anticovert level 22, or 200k on anticovert level 21, while previously he needed 200k on anticovert 22 or 400k on anticovert 21...
id say this update majorly discourages buying covert levels
possible solutions i see would be:
1) downscale covert by fixed factor, or scale up level 1 cost(my other thread - http://herebegames.com/StarGateWars/viewtopic.php?t=27057 to maintain average covert in close ratio to average other stats like it is now
2)every player gets refunded for all levels they have bought in their bank, and they are given 48 hour ppt and cant be spied on at the time - so they can decide if they will buy levels again, on the new terms, or spend it on something else.

long complicated but i understand and support this idea

[Wolf359]

Well if covert formulas are going to stay where they are at, then the spy level costs need to be adjusted accordingly. Makes no sense to have spy level prices double every time but not give the same results.

Who said it had to make sense?

In reality - generally, if you have a greater capacity to do something, it actually costs more to do it.

ermm, id say any downscalation of covert wont have long term effect - this update slowed the growth down a bit - but its still exponential.
this update would indeed be good and fair in my opinion also, if we had known what effect will spy levels have before of buying.

Yes - but at least is not as great an exponential increase as we had previously.

[Radium]

ermm, id say any downscalation of covert wont have long term effect - this update slowed the growth down a bit - but its still exponential.
this update would indeed be good and fair in my opinion also, if we had known what effect will spy levels have before of buying.

Yes - but at least is not as great an exponential increase as we had previously.

Growth is exponential in this game. So the question really is, how long until the more powerful players will be pushing on spy levels 30 to 35. So the question is how long will this even matter? Soon we could see such high spy levels that this only hurts smaller accounts.

[slicky]

I would have though that putting enough men on to x 2 your covert would be more expensve than going up 2 levels, thus making it harder for new players.

Allthough it depends on how many spies you have in the first place. It doesn't really bother me either way as ppl are always going up spy levels and putting more and more men on, so you just have to follow.

[god]

I would have though that putting enough men on to x 2 your covert would be more expensve than going up 2 levels, thus making it harder for new players.

Allthough it depends on how many spies you have in the first place. It doesn't really bother me either way as ppl are always going up spy levels and putting more and more men on, so you just have to follow.

depends what level you have... I currently have level 27... level 28 is going to cost me 800 billion naq in a week or so... for 800 billion naq, I could train 228 million spies... And although it is tempting to do so, I'm probably going to buy level 28 instead, because giving up 228 million of my miners would be quite costly.

btw... for those of you that can't see sarcasm when it jumps out and bites your **Filtered** off, (I don't really have 228 million miners)

[12agnar0k]

i disagree i liek the new covert system, puts more empathsis on spys, disadavantages theguys in the top who like having 30 mil miners but only 500k spys, which is always good.

[12agnar0k]

I would have though that putting enough men on to x 2 your covert would be more expensve than going up 2 levels, thus making it harder for new players.

Allthough it depends on how many spies you have in the first place. It doesn't really bother me either way as ppl are always going up spy levels and putting more and more men on, so you just have to follow.

depends what level you have... I currently have level 27... level 28 is going to cost me 800 billion naq in a week or so... for 800 billion naq, I could train 228 million spies... And although it is tempting to do so, I'm probably going to buy level 28 instead, because giving up 228 million of my miners would be quite costly.

btw... for those of you that can't see sarcasm when it jumps out and bites your **Filtered** off, (I don't really have 228 million miners)

but you forget you could use the 800 bil naq to buy the uu needed to train the spys , hence giving you more covert than buyign a level 28 without reducing your income.