Stop artificially producing AT in the market.

[Wolf359]

This has started out in another thread talking about the limits of AT held, but I believe it deserves a thread of its own......

What I am proposing is to do away, completetly with artificially produced AT in the market - i.e. the only turns that go into the market are turns that are actually produced by players and used to trade for resources already in the market.

This would stop the mass availability of turns within the game, which has been the main cause for the unbalance within the game and all the associated problems that have come with it.

POSITIVES:

- it would give a little skill/strategy back to the game (which was lost due to the availability of mass AT) - because AT would become a more scarce commodity, people would have to use them more wisely by being more selective with their targets. It would also mean that single players being able to mass entire alliances would be more difficult, and would, hopefully, encourage more organisational attacks.

- it would hand a little control to the smaller players. We all know that the bigger players will still want to buy turns - but because they will no longer be readily available on the market (i..e they will no longer be artificially produced), then the smaller players will be able to demand higher prices for their turns, meaning they can use the increased naq they receive to further improve their accounts.

NEGATIVES:

- obviously there will be less AT on the market, and some people will complian about this. But they will only complain about it because they can no longer mass/raid all day. However, the ability to allow players to mass/raid all day (because of the mass availability of turns) is responsible for the removal of all skill/strategy in the game, and the unbalance.

- AT prices will rise - but as said previously - this will be good for smaller/newer players as they will be able to sell their AT at higher prices to the big players.


AT are a big part of this game - but the biggest mistake the Admins ever made was giving players AT literally on tap - it allowed single players to individually atatck around the clock, removing any element of skill or strategy the game had, and meaning that more people were opened up as targets as the massers no longer had to be as selective.

I believe that this suggestion is the only way some balance can be restored to the game - and will solve the vast majority of problems/difficulties that peopel complain about.

Ever since the market was introduced with mass availability of AT, the game has gotten worse.

I would ask you all to vote wisely and to not just think about yourself, but think about the overall good of the game.

I would also encourage you to post to explain your vote (if you say No), as simply saying No in itself helps nobody.

[Zeratul]

we like this... it works well in chaos, where market doesnt produce anything on its own, so why not here?

it will also help on reducing the power gap...because at's will be more expensive for the big ones to buy, and the weaklings can grow faster by selling at's...

[Hells__Angel]

I like it, although for raiders like me, might cause a bit of a growth stump

Lol, well I think it can be addapted to suit all parties. Maybe not completely relying on people selling turns, but just a smaller amount of artificially produced turns.

Or maybe a limit of how many AT's you can trade for every day?

[Teal'auc of the Void]

Sorry guys, but no. I remember time where High Empty bought out all AT's from the market and sold them for price which could afford only big players. No and once more no. Don't try to convince me otherwise, I've seen market dry on many occassions and I don't want that anymore. Market is imho here as something everyone should be able to use (since it's 'cosmic' market and not someone's personal market) after they got at least Market SS.



Teal'auc

[Rottenking]

keep it how it is

[Asclepius]

i think perhaps the suggestion from Hells__Angel might help... but then again big players could always just buy up to the cap use them and buy more using weaker players MTs. I think its a pretty difficult problem, because obviously you don't want it so one v.powerful player can mass and take out a whole alliance, nor i think should you stunt the growth of players hoping to expand to bigger army sizes using for the most part raiding as their method.. but as you say, the game would be improved with an increased need for strategy in attacks etc.

[StarMan]

I like the idea on the whole, but it will just encourage the big fat stats builders to sit on their piles of cash, and trade the turns they wont use for yet more cash. It wont force them to actually go out and fight for a crust.

[Munchy]

I have to say no.

As High Empty pointed out in the other thread, unlimited attack turns have produced the ability for new players to catch up to the top players if they are dedicated enough. Sure, they have to raid their lives away, but it is their choice to make. I would have never gotten where I was today without the market, infact I would probably still have less than 2-3 mil army without hte present day market.

To deny that opportunity to grow unlimitedly to the new players would be unfair in my oppinion. If the market produced attack turns had never been introduced in the first place, then fine, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the damage is done, and there is no turning back now.

If a 'main 2' was to be introduced, like has been suggested earlier, then I strongly recommend no market produced attack turns, but then and only then.

In my oppinion lots of attack turns also promotes higher activity levels. I know from experience that during the times that market was dry I played less(because there was no point in playing really), and so did many of my friends in the game.

I know you have the games best interests in mind Wolf, but what is done is done, and to change it won't help, but rather hurt newer players. Although it would admitidly stop 1 person from massing entire alliances, which would be nice

[Wolf359]

I have to say no.

As High Empty pointed out in the other thread, unlimited attack turns have produced the ability for new players to catch up to the top players if they are dedicated enough. Sure, they have to raid their lives away, but it is their choice to make. I would have never gotten where I was today without the market, infact I would probably still have less than 2-3 mil army without hte present day market.

To deny that opportunity to grow unlimitedly to the new players would be unfair in my oppinion. If the market produced attack turns had never been introduced in the first place, then fine, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the damage is done, and there is no turning back now.

If a 'main 2' was to be introduced, like has been suggested earlier, then I strongly recommend no market produced attack turns, but then and only then.

In my oppinion lots of attack turns also promotes higher activity levels. I know from experience that during the times that market was dry I played less(because there was no point in playing really), and so did many of my friends in the game.

I know you have the games best interests in mind Wolf, but what is done is done, and to change it won't help, but rather hurt newer players. Although it would admitidly stop 1 person from massing entire alliances, which would be nice

Really? I failed to see that pointed out in High Empty's other thread - what he did say was that a 15 million UU account can get to 50 million UU in 6 weeks - well whoopy doo! The point being you already need a reasonably strong account to make it work - but there aren't actually that many with a 15 million strong account.

Unlimited turns and mass availability of turns DOES NOT help new players (and nobody in any thread has ever stated how they do!) - because they cannot afford them. What would help new players would be making the turns more scarce (by removing them from the market). Bigger players would then be demanding turns more - and so the smaller/newer players could sell them to teh bigger players at a higher naquadah charge - and tehn use teh naq to improve their accounts.

As for lots of attack turns promoting more activity - I don't agree - more massing/raiding - yes - but that is not the true spirit of war. There are lots of mass attacks now - but not really any wars.

I know what is done is done - but that doesn't mean it can't be undone - all it needs is for someone to have the balls to do it, and unfortunately there is only one person in that regard.

i think perhaps the suggestion from Hells__Angel might help... but then again big players could always just buy up to the cap use them and buy more using weaker players MTs. I think its a pretty difficult problem, because obviously you don't want it so one v.powerful player can mass and take out a whole alliance, nor i think should you stunt the growth of players hoping to expand to bigger army sizes using for the most part raiding as their method.. but as you say, the game would be improved with an increased need for strategy in attacks etc.

Well, I didn't mention raiding - but that is another reason for the staleness of the game (in fact my 2 top reasons for SGW dying are: Mass availability of AT and Raiding - neither of which help the newwer players, because the stronger ones use the mass availability of AT to RAID the newer players).

Sorry guys, but no. I remember time where High Empty bought out all AT's from the market and sold them for price which could afford only big players. No and once more no. Don't try to convince me otherwise, I've seen market dry on many occassions and I don't want that anymore. Market is imho here as something everyone should be able to use (since it's 'cosmic' market and not someone's personal market) after they got at least Market SS.



Teal'auc

I think you missed the point - a single player would not be able to buy up the AT because there wouldn't be any on the market - they would only be available via the broker. This would get rid of too many being available and the set prices - which are easily affordable to the older players, but not to the newer players (newer players can't afford to buy lots of them). What the idea would do is transfer all AT trading to teh broker - it would help the newer players in that they could set their price - and if teh bigger players want more AT - then they will have to pay a real price, not an artificial price, for them.

In essence - it would by a REAL market.

I like it, although for raiders like me, might cause a bit of a growth stump

Lol, well I think it can be addapted to suit all parties. Maybe not completely relying on people selling turns, but just a smaller amount of artificially produced turns.

Or maybe a limit of how many AT's you can trade for every day?

Glad you like it - but like I said above - raiders are part of the reason for wanting this change. It has become far too easy for people to raid - and the more AT there are, the more you can raid - the more you raid, the stronger/richer you become - the stronger and richer you become, teh more AT you can afford......... ad infinitum.

[Munchy]

I have to say no.

As High Empty pointed out in the other thread, unlimited attack turns have produced the ability for new players to catch up to the top players if they are dedicated enough. Sure, they have to raid their lives away, but it is their choice to make. I would have never gotten where I was today without the market, infact I would probably still have less than 2-3 mil army without hte present day market.

To deny that opportunity to grow unlimitedly to the new players would be unfair in my oppinion. If the market produced attack turns had never been introduced in the first place, then fine, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the damage is done, and there is no turning back now.

If a 'main 2' was to be introduced, like has been suggested earlier, then I strongly recommend no market produced attack turns, but then and only then.

In my oppinion lots of attack turns also promotes higher activity levels. I know from experience that during the times that market was dry I played less(because there was no point in playing really), and so did many of my friends in the game.

I know you have the games best interests in mind Wolf, but what is done is done, and to change it won't help, but rather hurt newer players. Although it would admitidly stop 1 person from massing entire alliances, which would be nice

Really? I failed to see that pointed out in High Empty's other thread - what he did say was that a 15 million UU account can get to 50 million UU in 6 weeks - well whoopy doo! The point being you already need a reasonably strong account to make it work - but there aren't actually that many with a 15 million strong account.

Unlimited turns and mass availability of turns DOES NOT help new players (and nobody in any thread has ever stated how they do!) - because they cannot afford them. What would help new players would be making the turns more scarce (by removing them from the market). Bigger players would then be demanding turns more - and so the smaller/newer players could sell them to teh bigger players at a higher naquadah charge - and tehn use teh naq to improve their accounts.

As for lots of attack turns promoting more activity - I don't agree - more massing/raiding - yes - but that is not the true spirit of war. There are lots of mass attacks now - but not really any wars.

I know what is done is done - but that doesn't mean it can't be undone - all it needs is for someone to have the balls to do it, and unfortunately there is only one person in that regard.

Actually you don't need a strong account already to get unlimited turns for raiding...you just need lots and lots of time on your hands. For example, turns are going for 18 uu per turn on the black market right now. This means if you raid more you get to make a profit, and allow you to buy more turns than what you started with. You are quickly able to keep large profits, and after awhile you can start buying market turns from people which allows for slightly more profit.(actually you can buy market turns from people earlier...but it is a risky venture when small).

Like I started raiding when I had a 60 k army size. I traded 40 k to someone for turns, and quickly grew. It is the best way to grow for both small and large players...infact it is the only way to grow for smaller players I am afraid.

And why I say it can't be undone is because if it was, how would any player starting today catch a top player? Even if they played 24/7, their attempts would be futile. The bigger player would have a larger income, and thus a higher UP...and all the benifits that come with the two. Sure, the smaller player would probably never be massed, but that is simply because he would never amount to anything worth massing

[[BERSERKER]]

I have to disagree with the point that raiding does not help smaller accounts grow. I must say that before I knew what raiding was my account was about as stale to work on as can be, even after using 15 turns every time i got to steal as much naquadah as I could. On top of that my account was going nowhere fast.
Then I told my CO about quiting the game because it was boring to me and he gave me 600 turns to start raiding with and taught me a little bit of how to do it. With those I got more than 5 days worth of my UP and I was like "WOW". I told him how he got so many turns and he said it was in the game market, another thing i didnt know about . Anyway after saving myself to buy those turns on the market and trading uu on the market , i found myself able to get as many turns to do this raiding thing as i wanted!

Moral of the story, raiding has helped me catch up to those have been around a while longer than myself, and though im not up with the big dogs yet continued raiding may lead me there if i still have turns available

I do however agree with the amount of incoming turns idea, but it would have to be a reasonably high amount of turns, such as 3-4k(is that enough to mass an alliance?).

[god]

I have to agree wholeheartedly...

I have been screaming this since the first time the market was replenished after raid was released.

New players are still perfectly capable of catching up without unlimited turns, because the turns would be worth so much more, they could just sell them... for more. Unlimited turns which in turn produced unlimited raiding complettely ruined the balance that the game had so carefully teetered on.

AT was the ONLY limited factor in this game. It was meant to be limited, in that it was the only thing that people couldn't force their account to produce more of, and as such allowed for different strategies depending on your style of play.

Now, with unlimited (and underpriced) turns, the game no longer depends on skill, but simply who has the most time to raid. Aside from time spent raiding, people no longer have to earn their stats.

Again, I agree with wolf, unlimited turns HAS to go.

[Wolf359]

I like the idea on the whole, but it will just encourage the big fat stats builders to sit on their piles of cash, and trade the turns they wont use for yet more cash. It wont force them to actually go out and fight for a crust.

Forgot to answer this one earlier. I think the statement is wrong - what has encouraged stat building is, strangely, the amount of turns available. You see - turns have become so available that it is too easy to mass attack for naq and raid - thereby increasing your stats and your own UP/naq production - i.e. stat building. Then, when these stat-builders get attacked/raided (after spending their hard earned resources on building stats), they moan and whine and issue threats. Trust me - this did not happen prior to mass availability of turns.

I have to disagree with the point that raiding does not help smaller accounts grow. I must say that before I knew what raiding was my account was about as stale to work on as can be, even after using 15 turns every time i got to steal as much naquadah as I could. On top of that my account was going nowhere fast.
Then I told my CO about quiting the game because it was boring to me and he gave me 600 turns to start raiding with and taught me a little bit of how to do it. With those I got more than 5 days worth of my UP and I was like "WOW". I told him how he got so many turns and he said it was in the game market, another thing i didnt know about . Anyway after saving myself to buy those turns on the market and trading uu on the market , i found myself able to get as many turns to do this raiding thing as i wanted!

Moral of the story, raiding has helped me catch up to those have been around a while longer than myself, and though im not up with the big dogs yet continued raiding may lead me there if i still have turns available

I do however agree with the amount of incoming turns idea, but it would have to be a reasonably high amount of turns, such as 3-4k(is that enough to mass an alliance?).

You were given 600 turns to start doing this, 99% of new/smaller players won't be, and I am willing to bet that your account was a decent size already....?

And you proved another of my points that all AT and raid do is to continue to make it easier for the already more powerful accounts to grow - because they are richer and more powerful, and more able to use AT effectively, then they will grow proportionately FASTER than a small account - forever increasing the gap between the two, not shortening it.

[[BERSERKER]]

I know for a fact that raiding helps smaller accounts grow because I've seen a friend gain a 500k army size in three weeks without assistance from anybody, just farming and saving for market turns after he was able to get Market Supporter Status. You dont get much smaller than just starting off

[Wolf359]

The point being that the gap is insurmountable because no matter how much you grow, the bigger players will ALWAYS grow more.

This suggestion is aimed at reducing the (currently) ever increasing gap between older/stronger and newer/weaker players - and it will do it by limiting the AT in the game, thereby allowing weaker players to charge higher prices for AT, which they know the bigger players will want/need (as well as bringing back some tactical thought to the game!).

Because they can demand such high prices, they should be able to invest it wisely to significantly improve their accounts.