- Edit - Um it appears I missed the last two posts while I was posting lol.
Argh... wrote about half of it then the comp crashed... oh well always quicker the second time
If I still don't convince anyone let me know on msn -
mailto:stuartlzsouthwell@hotmail.com... I'll change ya mind
hopefully.
I'm not going to address everything... like counter every time that the game is better now type stuff
, just the points... well that I feel like
, if I miss anything out let me know and I'll reply to it.
Written by Judochop
"A. Make small players not be able to grow.
B. give big players a 100% untouchable advantage over others
C. Destroy the game 100%(who'd wanna play a game that is even more tipped then it is now?)"
Well, it would make it easier for them to grow, god said it pretty well... the amount of resources that dead farms do produce wont change, it doesnt reall matter if your using 100000 turns on them a day or 10000... if raiding is unprofitable, people wont do it, however this would mean that the accounts just build up uu... until the point where they were profitable to raid over attacking. Instead of someone spending about 3hrs raiding to mabye get 500k of uu or something, they'd spend about 30 min, but still get the same amount. And to be honest... I think it would make it easier to catch up to the bigger players, because instead of spending mabye 4 hrs a day for a month... you can get more resources with each attack and basically not have to spend that 4 hrs a day to catch up. Just 30 min... which is doable
. Now... at prices will go up, because of the less I'd imagine they'd go to some pretty crazy prices, however people will only buy them when they are willing to pay the price and spend the time doing it, and things like raiding will always be profitable, because less attacks will be made on them, increasing the amount of uu they have out.. till they become profitable over attacking.
"So, when you cant take the truth, you get to warn people? I'd love to talk to u civilly, on msn about this. And i apologise also, for the fact my post has gone extremely negative, got a phone call this made me quite mad, and vented thoroughly through this post."
Hehe...
Written by Nox
"this game was made without the market etc etc, yes it was a classic KoC. it was fun for a while, but after a while it started getting bored, i even left the game for over a month cause of that, and others did too, and what did u mean about in the old days u didnt have to be online that much?? if u didnt u would get farmed, remember?? especially b4 the bank existed"
Well... I think what wolf means is you didnt have to spend lots of time raiding... you kinda do nowadays if you don't have a big army size. And... although sgw was similar to KoC originally, I think it has enough going for it now to be interested for everyone, for example... the bank(does koc have one now?), motherships, supers, alliances, realm alert and nox, an ingame market, ascension... which is a brilliant idea tying it to the main server
10/10 for that one Admin, type thing to keep the game interesting and people into the game without having to have constant raiding to keep people interested... I find it a little boring... people can still play like that if they want
(I used to a little bit).
"and i disagree with u wolf, when u say things are getting easy, its only easy for ppl that have been playing for a while and have great income, already have their big armies, and with the army cap, they dont have anymore more to do, to the new players its not easy at all, it takes plenty of strategy and good planning, look at munchy, hes a somewhat new player, that got to the game, understood how it worked, planned his way, and got where he is now, he spent plenty of time, yes ofc, but it took great planning and great playing to get where he is"
I think wolf means like... to get strong the only way you really do this within any length of time is by raiding... for hours on end, and thats easy strategically (doesnt need too much thought... pain in the ass doing though
), yeah munchy's done a good job... but I'd imagine he's done a fair bit of raiding, by reducing the number of at, it wont make it harder for him to keep growing like it is, it just means he'd on average get more per hit... meaning it would be quicker growth
.
"there are 2 ways to improve the game how it is right now, to make it less easy like u putted, to change the power, cause thats really the matter here, u and slepnier dont like the way the power gap is right now, and they are:
1-total reset, but that would make too many ppl leave the game, cause of too much time and rl money invested in the game by a lot of ppl, so i dont think this would ever happen"
Well... to be honest I think this would be the best thing you could do to the game... it needs a reset every once in a while due to the game being logarithmic... or doing something like forum did with the miners, making them earn more naq
, delays the logarithmic effect somewhat. And yeah... too many people have put too many hours to reset it
"2-take out the army cap´s, but seriously, there isnt a real cap, its like admin said, its a new way to play the game, u can still grow, but at a slower rate, and with a different gameplay, so what i mean is take out the raiding cap, but keep the plague, and start making a serious effort to catch the multis and cheaters, cause a lot of ppl are still being scammed by multis/cheaters, and those cheaters keep growing and growing ingame, with no worries whatsoever"
Well... mabye, I don't really know about the cap, catching the multi's and cheaters I'd agree on, I think they get the majority of them though.
"I think a proper change of course would be to limit how players grow when at the top, and stop talkign about actions that would STOP growth with small-medium size players including a couple of my officers and friends that would all quit if this idea was implemented since playing would be pointless since they would never have a snowballs chance in _____ of ever catching up to any bloody soul"
Well... I don't think it would stop growth, (I think it would be easier
) due to that your still essentially taking the same amount of resources, whether you use 1000 or 100 turns every day... eventually
, A growth helper could be handy though...
Written by SGC_ReplicÅtors
"This is what i see from the game....
Some ppl have the luxury of actually sitting on the throne all day and not get farmed even not in PPT...i wish i had this but nope, society of this game is to afraid to actually go and change it because they are afraid of loosing a couple of numbers(stats), and forced many players to do what?...."
Well.... spend lots and lots of time to catch up
"...Raid to get stronger there is no other way...besides buying but they requires huge amounts of naq, i believe extremer saw this and he did it he sat there and raided all day to get huge...
You put the time and effort into something you be better at it....it applies to everything that i no off....
Everybody has the capabilities to raid the ppl who dont want to raid gives me the same 2 reasons that has never changed..."
Unfortunately yeah, the prob is that you need to spend simply too long playing the game to catch up, raiding for what isnt really profitable because of the shear amount of players raiding and spending turns has kinda created this.
"Laziness and Takes too Long <----- what are the opposites of these 2? Time and Effort...
Well well that brings us back to putting time and effort into something"
Alright... I'm going to say that its not worth it, because... well its kinda mind numbing, I don't know if any of you have played KoC, I think they are still largely based on a clicking system, you pretty much sit there clicking links and this is how you grow... the more people you get the more uu you get, alliances are formed with mainly this reason, rather than any sort of miltary need. Now... if you think its worth it to do that... well mabye
, but there isnt really much skill involved in clicking a link... Raiding is similar... I know the better you can raid the more uu you can get, but honestly... "Everybody has the capabilities to raid" and its not really difficult.
"Not many ppl have the time to raid all day for a month straight, but imagine if you where able to pull this off? u pretty much squeezed the last 2 years of what some ppl have been doing to get very large army sizes in a month? now isnt that worth it?"
Well... it depends if you want to spend your life doing this kind of thing, the guys at the top have spent a lot of time doing what they are yeah...
.
I might have been a little negative with this repli, sorry if I have >_<. you've got some good arguments there
.
~
Hmm... Brainwave!
, the games logarithmic right? this means that it eventually slows down as is shown... what if the amount of naq that miners produced periodically increased, to say keep the average time that a player doubles their stats and army size etc to like 30 days, rather than the 120 or so that it is now
(thats going off the prices of uu and including compounding)... might post this elsewhere
~
Written by Judochop
"Ok this is how i see it
The limitation of AT's would cut raiding out comepletly. Raiding would be pointless, unless u had multi millions in uu out. This cuts out the main viable way to catch up to 50mil army-ers."
Well, if people don't raid, eventually the targets will build until they are profitable to raid, its the supply and demand thing, if theres as many at's, people can get, the targets there are a significantly lower... if there are less at's the targets will be bigger and you won't need to spend as much time raiding or attacking to have the same effect as you do now
.
"On msn, Wolf told me about the idea of the little ppl, being able to sell there at's. but the problem, to be able to trade the little ppl, need to have full SS. this generally is only available in UU at rates of 100k+. The whole idea of some1 having to waiting like 5 hours to make 1 attack is also just pointless. The game would grind to a halt."
Yep, the ss is an issue that needs to be worked out, it was however orignally designed to fund the server... it might be possible for forum to look into other options. Yeah... but that one attack would get a lot more on average than one attack now
. I honestly don't think the little guys would be able to sell their at too much, it would basically come down to those who are able to spend the time using the at and those not able to use it, kind of like it is now... except the timeframes are drastically reduced, from like 4hrs to mabye 30 min
.
"Also the idea of giving power to the small players... wont happen, i remember when uu prices went over 400mil per k. There was a "massing any1 that tries to sell over 400mil/k" thread in the market, with lists of ppl massed and such. The prices eventually won out. But how many small players quit, after having their accounts 0'd for trying to make themselves better? the ppl left behind, would go againest the very reason for this update."
Well, I don't know that it will give power to the small players, but it will in a way, they will get their high prices for at's as the demand for them increases
, its all relative. And selling uu is good for a beginning account... (up to about 50-60k up I believe, tho it all changes if your ascending).
"Skill, is a perspective idea. To me, raiding is skill(this post keeping me from it) the amount of AT i can use quickly and get the most from it, is all skill."
Yep, it is a perspective idea
, but... if you only have 30 min to raid a day... I don't think you can compete with someone spending 2 hrs a day raiding, no matter how good you are
You'll still be able to do this though, just that it will likely be a little more profitable due to the higher targets out there.
Written by Ryan Uy
"i am against this suggestion, it would seem a nice suggestion from a theoretical point of view, yes a limited amount of at would make bigger players want more thus the price would increase and with it small players can sell thier at at a higher or ridiculous price...and with the naq they have they can buy uu for it right? but theory and reality sometimes dont usually agree with each other"
Agreed, however I don't think the main benefit will come from the increased price of at, more the amount of resources out there and the amount of time required to collect them.
"in reality, there are few unintended consequences to this, we have yet to see or discover, but two things are for sure, i have been around here since march of 2005 and i have seen that this game has brought out the best as well as the worst in players, with a ridiculous prices of at this can create more conflict because for example do big players want to pay lets say 1bil naq for 1k at? (exaggeritaing this of course but it could be possible yes?) wars or arguments may rise with such an occurance"
Well... its all supply and demand, people may try to limit the price, but as Judochop mentioned the price will eventually win
, if people want to fight over it they can... even if they succeed all it means is that people wont sell their at, they'd simply use them themselves.
"second, is selling at vs raiding have a huge difference, for one raiding will allow a new player catch up with some one playing a year in a few months, whilst selling would take you how long? i think longer than a year"
It all depends on the prices... but to be honest I don't think that the increased price of at will be the benefit, more the amount of time a player will need to spend in that few months, instead of being say... 3 hrs a day, there will be more resources out there (due to the decreased attacking), meaning it may only take 20 min or so to gain the same amount of resources.
"let me make an example of mine, me and my officer, well before i dont raid, was lazy doing it at that time i had around almost 1.5 mil army size and here is my officer at that time was at 500k army size, well he did some raiding and after a few months of joining he was almost catching me up, and my up at that time was at 20k already, so you can see that raiding can really help new players, now my officer has a bigger army size than me, there are quite alot of new players that have gotten much bigger all because of raiding, and having lots of ats at their disposal, some now have around 20mil army size enough to compete with the big boys of this game, and because they have grown, they are now helping new members"
Yeah... but, if the amount of at's there are available to raid are decrease, all this will mean is that the time it takes to collect the resources out there will decrease.
"the way i see it this is how the game should be played big helping small not limiting them"
Hehe... thats debatable
, it is a war game (yaddy yadda ya I know theres 3000 topics on it sorry lol), personally if I was coop I'd completely suppress everyone else even looking dangerous
... would be funny seeing the complaints on the forums...
Written By MJNC
"At this moment i'm on vacation, so i have more free time that i usually have, but even with that extra free time, very few times i have manage to sit and raid a good ammount of uu. so i started to trading turns. it doesn't have the same gains as raiding, but it's something.
If the AT's are limited from the market, you say that the younger players will have more chances of growing by selling the turns, well i disagree, if you limit the number of turns:
FIRST, that will also limit the traders like me and several others from making a good gain withouth spending so much time playing.
SECOND, now the game only produces around 150AT's per day, which selling them will make (IF the rates go up) around 3-5k uu, per day, which is far from being a good growing rate for the new players, without counting the full SS problem.
THIRD, the raiders spend A LOT more turns that the game produces, so they will start buying turns from the new players, but the new players will still be getting the turns at the game speed which is very low. so at the end there will be a point in which the game will be frozen, becouse of lack of AT's."
Yeah, you are right on a few points here, it will completely cut out traders from the game... by that I mean people buying other peoples market turns and selling the turns off.. this imbalance in price is caused by the artificial way of gaining turns and the limitations there are on gaining these.
However at will always sell at the right price if you have someone who has perhaps used their existing market turns, and wants to buy more at, the same way it works now... actually yeah I don't think it will change much there, at will always be a higher price than what is on the black market, regardless of how many at there are on there and whether their value is real or artificial, the reason being that some people will most likely (still) use over that amount of turns, and will have to buy more at from somewhere...
and if it was cheaper to buy from the ingame market they'd simply do that if they could... I think thats right
Written by Judochop
"u guys still dont get the main point. how would a new player sell their turns? SS costs 20$, but mostly for like 100k uu. how they gonna get that without raiding? they wont be able to afford the SS to sell their goods. secondly, the naq off farms doesnt rerally make a difference, per at, raiding then selling that for uu, is WAY more profitable. thats if u think building an UP actually helps some1 grow. also considering doidng this will damage their ability to ascend."
Well... that would change for a bit, naq generates a bit faster than uu, so for a while it might be more profitable to attack people for naq than it would to raid
, but... as soon as people start attacking rather than raiding the raid targets build up until they are profitable. If people are ascending they can always buy uu rather than increasing their up...
Also can anyone who is still reading this put purplemonkeydishwasher at the top of their post
, just like to know whether people read it or not.... hehe don't tell ppl why or anything
"God's idea isnt that bad in theory, but it wouldnt work like that. ur idea would take an account maybe a year+ to reach 1mil army. when u can do that in 1 month via raiding. maybe i am bad at math, but to me id perfer 1month over 1 year..."
The accounts would build a bit quicker than that... and to be honest it doesnt really need to be a 1 mil army size to be worth it, people are generally going for accounts with 40-50k, it would only take a week to probably double this average figure to 80-100k, mabye a tad longer, if this still wasnt profitable and it was better to hit for naq, the targets would eventually just keep growing till it was profitable again
, might just mean that people attack for naq a bit more than they raid. Yeah... that calc is considering your using one lot of attack turns on one person
rather than 50 lots of attack turns on 50 people
(just rough guessing... lol), basically the average amount of resources will increase... it should make it easier to catch up whether through raiding or attacking or a combination of both depending on the times
.
I hope you guys give what I'm saying consideration
... and at least have read it, hopefully I've convinced you, if I've missed anything just lemme know and I'll fix it up for you
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Stickin it to the man!
