sgt.johnkeel wrote:Regardless of faith the majority of religions teach good morals and ethics. It is how these ethics are interpreted by the majority of people and how they are enforced that is important. Currently murder is unacceptable. Two or three hundred years ago dueling was considered acceptable and even normal. It would be considered murder nowadays. Societys views (those held by the majority) will always affect the legality of a persons actions. When the constraints of society are removed however, morals are forgotten and we revert to our true nature. Humanity is greedy. Human nature dictates that we look after ourselves first and foremost. Our families and loved ones next. Then we try and protect our friends, usually because we can see some advantage to ourselves if we do so.
I 100% agree with everything you say there Johnkeel. I wouldn't force anyone to believe in a religion, and neither should anyone else. However despite what some may think, religion does have a place in this world like many other institutions and it helps provide a moral standard for people to live by. (One that is supposedly enforced by an omnipotent being, and we can't hide from.)
sgt.johnkeel wrote:It is also notable that human nature is actually designed to solve seemingly impossible questions with answers such as "God did it" etc. When humans were unable to explain something they attributed it to a divine being in order to explain it.
Yeah, we in the US call that a "cop out." (lol) When someone feels the urge to do something wrong and acts on that, it provides some sort of consolation to blame it on a good / evil deity to shift the blame.
sgt.johnkeel wrote:I take it that you 3 (Xeno, Come_forth and CrimsonFrost) are all americans? Correct me if i am mistaken. But here in the UK we have very bad problems with teenage pregnancies. The US doesn't have such a bad problem (statistically speaking, the USA being much bigger than the UK) because the majority of teenagers in the USA are strongly Christian and have taken vows not to have sex before marriage. In this example Christianity is good.
I'm American, I think Xeno is as well. Of course you are right, but for some people giving religion any type of brownie points is like swallowing snake venom.
sgt.johnkeel wrote:Personally i am atheist
I don't like religion as it causes a great deal of suffering in the world today and will in future as in the past. It does have its good morals etc, but you don't need to be religious to be a "good" person. I also like to think that everything can be proved scientifically. Perhaps there is a god, who knows. He could be Gou'ald for all we know
Again, I totally agree with what you said. My father pushed his religious views on me really hard, and to this day it still pisses me off. I do believe in God, and certain biblical things, but religion has helped give man a reason to do a lot of good things in the world as well as evil. Of course if someone else is atheist, no worries. Freedom of speech rocks, eh?
(I've gotten into some interesting conversations with atheists about the existance of God, etc.
Come_Forth wrote:That link that I gave I believe is from a Christian site.
Are you sure about that, or did you look more through the site? Well, I took the liberty of doing it and found some of the other articles from it. Allow me to put some of the other site names from there:
BibleSexQuiz.files
Christian Phallism files
Gay Jesus files
gayjesus.files
genitals files
Incestous Ancestry of Jesus.files
Jesus Sexuality.files
NoJesus.files
Prophecies Imaginary and Unfulfilled files/
Religious Atrocities.files
Sex in God's Word files
Some Christian arguments and why they don't work files/
And so on, and so forth. That doesn't look like a very Christian site to me.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Come_Forth wrote:It is true that poll after poll shows that the more education someone has the less likely they will believe in a personal God.
What polls? Again, all the polls I see are really silly for the most part as for reasons I already stated. It's ridiculous to say that out of 1400 students polled in a single college in 1967 reflects the views of our time.. Or 158 people from 1980? You have got to be kidding me, talk about biased. (lol) Read my post about polls again. (I did a paper awhile back on polls, and I really hate them.)
Come_Forth wrote: Einstein believed in a vague notion of God like a Deist but He did not believe that this God was involved in human problems.
True, but that doesn't detract from my earlier argument which is despite your polls one of the most intelligent people of our time believed in God. (I didn't say a traditional God, or God of the Christians, Muslims, or any other. You yourself just said he belived in a God.
Come_Forth wrote:Einstein was a Humanist so even if he believed in God it does not matter he put his trust in people.
Again, my ealier point was that despite that site's ridiculous polls, there are a wide variety of intelligent people that believe in a God.
Come_Forth wrote:Where? I got it from my History classes. I have also read some books by Noam Chomsky. Israel should not even exist. It is causing more problems than it is worth. Of course Israel likes us because in the Israeli/Arab war we gave the Israelis weapons to fight the Arabs (we wonder why they hate us
). The land does not belong to Israel. They are fighting over sand they both could just locate somewhere else but refuse to because the religions tied to the land
Oh great, Noam Chomsky. He only writes books denigerating just about every single thing that makes America great. Not to mention you always see his views being espoused by Anarchists, Socialists, and Communists. I hope your not the typical atheist, otherwise I can see why 90% of Americans have such a distaste. <rolls eyes> I'd like to hear where you went to school if you got your views from history classes. Last I checked, History classes don't teach you things like, "The only reason the US supports Israel over Palestine is that there is a verse in the Bible where God says that He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel." Israel has been around only since about 1948. Which type history class did you take? Of course Israel likes us because Israel has been fighting against nearly the entire Middle East since it has been born. It is your *opinion* that the land does not belong to Israel, the Jews have been villified since I don't know when. Are you going to jump on the Iranian presidents bandwagon and start saying there was no Holocaust as well? You also skipped over my point that Israel is the *O N L Y* country in the Middle East that has been a staunch ally, and that is the reason why we keep giving them support. Try your hand at politics for a change instead of history.
Come_Forth wrote:When the fishing boat was destroyed that was an accident and that boat did not have rockets fired at it for over an hour.
I think I'm going to cut off this conversation in a bit, you really sound like not the brightest. The military DOES make mistakes. I would know, because I have been in the military almost 7 years and am still going. That was over FORTY YEARS AGO. Technology was much worse then it is now, and it is possible for a country to make a mistake and attack someone. Remember the whole "staunch ally" thing? You really think that with all the support we give Israel, support you admitted already, that Israel would launch an assault on us? Use some critical thinking!!! Or at least some common sense.
Come_Forth wrote:I have taken philosophy and history classes and have not scored lower than an A.
People whom really have done as you say don't feel the need to say so. They defend their views with reason and logic, not by starting off and saying the grades in their classes.
Come_Forth wrote: So what makes a person moral? I always think through my actions. Religion is supported by the government because they can scare people with hell if they do not obey the laws. We do not base our morality off of the Bible.
That is ridiculous. Morality governs what a person does, BEFORE they do it. If I kill someone, then that is of course considered bad by logic. If I have a sense of morality, then I never complete said bad deed. I'm not "scared by hell" and am not apart of any religion, yet, it has been proven time and again that religion has played a strong part in the building block of a moral / ethical code and world-wide legal systems. Ask Sgt. Johnkeel, he is an atheist as well.
Come_Forth wrote:He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.--Ex22.20:
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.--Ex22:18
Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.--Ex31:14
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--Lev. 20:13
If a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.--Lev. 20:15 (poor animal hasn't it been through enough
)
And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the nightwalker, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--Lev.21:9
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--Lev. 15:32-36
If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die.-- Num. 22:22
1 Timothy
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.--24:16
You missed the part where I said "a major source of" , not the sole used. If you read some New Testament stuff you would read about the, "Old things being put away" when Jesus died. Not to mention that things in America have changed during the course of history, some for better some for worse. Just because you sifted through a huge book and cherry picked a few verses does not mean that our legal and government system is not based in part on the Judeo-Christian Bible. In fact, you are apart of the minority that believes that way. Heck, even the people in the Middle East and Europe consider us a "Christian nation."
Come_Forth wrote:The moral systems of every system and government have been pretty similar why chose Christianity over Greek mythology? The getting away with it argument is flawed because as Kant said if do it then why should someone else not do it? So if one person starts breaking the law there is a risk of anarchy.
They are not similar at all. Again, I don't believe you have ever taken any classes. Or just enough to get your mind slugging along. There is a big difference between the government and systems of the US, Canada, Germany, Iran, and virtually any other country. Why don't you tell me some of the other capitalist democracies there are out there? Or other nations that are told they are considered "Christian nations?" As for why we should choose Christianity, why don't you ask the forefathers of the United States whom themselves were Christians? Last I checked they made a good choice in what they based our nation on, because here we still are, debating whether we are apart of a national government / legal system based on religious views. Such irony, isn't it? Btw, I think you just argued my point regarding Kant. If there was never a religion in the world, then why not just do it if you won't get caught? If I'm 13 and want some money, what's keeping me from stealing it? Because I'm worried about national anarchy? I hate to say it, but people don't care about the rest of the world. Sometimes they don't even care about their own nation, because they view it as "I'm only a small cog, if I do one bad thing it won't matter." With no religions, people would essentially run amok and do whatever the hell they want. Which sounds great until people are looting your house, killing and raping your family members, and killing you.
Come_Forth wrote:It is hard to tell how many atheists there are in America because it is a stigma. Most polls show between 7-15%. Some politicians can be elected while being Muslim because Atheists are hated unfairly. If you go on a Christian site they usually say 7% but a secular site will say 15%. Here is something from the census they have lots of cool stuff
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 7s0073.xls or this site
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_StatesI say we have a problem because politicians are lying about their religious beliefs.
That would be the first thing you say that I agree with. Yes, there are I'm sure plenty of politicans that lie about their religious belief's, which is wrong. Even 85% of the population is an overwhelming majority of the people in this country. I seriously doubt I will see the day that an atheist is every elected into political power because of the same reason people people hate Michael Newdow: Our nation and government, plus our society in general is based on Judeo-Christan values. Like it or not. I doubt that 85% of the country is active Christians, however, I can say that most people do believe in God, and they definiately don't like atheistic belief's. In fact, if you talked to the everyday person, most Americans put atheism up with Nazism. Maybe it's because you throw polls at us which say that those who believe in God generally tend to be stupid.
Come_Forth wrote:I am sure that you have met many atheists they just do not want to admit it because we are treated like crap. America was not founded as Christian country and the government cannot establish a religion. I have freedom from religion just as you have freedom of religion.
I don't debate one minute that you have that right. I love my country, and I love the people for better or for worse. Everyone has a right to believe in their religion or lack therof, even people I disagree with. (Muslims, Atheists, anyone else.) Yes, atheists are treated like crap. Are you killed for espousing your belief's / reasoning's? No. Villified? Perhaps. Although there is a freedom of speech, there is also the consequences you have to deal with from exercising that freedom of speech. If I go out screaming I'm a rapist and I love it, I 100% have the right to do that. However If I get the living crap kicked out of me while in jail for it, big surprise there right? The only reason I believe that atheists are so villified in the United States is because is because despite your views, the US IS based on the Judeo-Christan Bible which naturally puts the large majority of us at odds with atheism. That simply will not change. (The same goes in quite a few other countries that espouse strong religious values, such as Islamic countries and other countries based on Christianity.) That is simply the way the world is, and you have got to move on. If I move to a Muslim country and start espousing Christian views, I know full well what will happen. Or going to China and pushing non-sanctioned religious views. The countries that I have seen that have no religion tend to really suck.. ie China, North Korea, Russia.. Mostly communist/socialist states.. Hmm, is there some kinda connection there?
Come_Forth wrote:I do not believe in outlawing religion because that would be dogmatic, all I want is in atmosphere of free intellectualism and not to have religion put down my throat. The governments in those countries are merely a religion without a God.
I hate to try to explain the ways of the world, but if you are in country, state, province, or society where there is a social norm and you try to break that social norm, you will typically be violently reacted against. Again, I don't advocate anyone shoving religon down someones throat. It happened to me by my father when I was younger and I still remember how much it pissed me off.
Come_Forth wrote:Maybe Americans are more likely to use birth control?
Why not pull up another poll for us?
Come_Forth wrote:This is a good thread much better than the other religion threads at this same stage
Now I must take a break from posting.
Indeed. I may not agree with the large majority of what you say, but it is good to exercise the brain a bit.