Evil Capitalists and Commies

[Spacey]

...It implements itself (unless some government Spacey will edit out start messing in the system)....

What?

[The Xeno]

...It implements itself (unless some government Spacey will edit out start messing in the system)....

I second the "What?"
Spacey is about as unbiased and reasonable as they come.

Read The Book, or shall I post it here?

Please, for I am missing something.
The only thing I can gather, is that you are suggesting either:
A slum is a slum is a slum.
Or... there is a fixed evolution to economic systems, and that poor/new populations must follow something like X economy leads to Y economy leads to Z.

I fail to see how, in theory - a poor nation/slum could not, under capitalism achieve a higher rate of growth than said nation could under all of the other economic systems I can think of (Speaking in averages).

For capitalism is, as you say, the natural order of things (private ownership etc.) - and it shouldn't matter if the currency is shovel or machinery.
-----------------

One doesn't need to implement capitalism, as it's the natural way the advanced society works.

Agreed... but I am assuming that a slum is not capitalist to start with, and requires implementation (or at least the removing of obstruction) for capitalism to take hold.

But still, there needs to be the ground for it, proper mechanisms, and wide-recognized PROPERTY titles.

Again, agreed.

Take the DMV for example. In the state of Connecticut there is an average of a 3 month wait to get a license test.

Hehe... don't forget the extra 3 months worth of locating/sending/receiving/ fillingout/fillingoutintriplicate personal info. forms.

[Fear Of The Duck]

...It implements itself (unless some government Spacey will edit out start messing in the system)....

What?

Spacey, I've explained this to you on other occasion, remember?
It's just my humorous way of self-modding (instead writing: *modded*)

Read The Book, or shall I post it here?

Please, for I am missing something. Razz

The Book is a bit long, but I'll post some fragments. Just need to go to ILAC and borrow it... Wait a few hrs


Ronald Reagan asked whether he'd been to a communist country answered: "Yes, Massachusetts"

[The Hamburglar]

ronald reagan also said "i am the chin of the world maw!"

he really did have a fine chin.

but anyway, on topic- nah.

[thaltek]

the asgaurd are commies........

[Stubert]

well, as you have called commies evil, i feel justified in adding a dr evil hand to mr mozart!

[Fear Of The Duck]

Ok, revenons a nos moutons.


Now I'll use The Book to bust IMO one of the greatest myths about Thirld World countries.

The Book is the proper tool for the job because of it's origin:
The Book Says: "Over the past five years, I and a hundred colleagues from six different nations have closed our books and opened our eyes - and gone out into the streets and countrysides of four continents to count how much the poorest sectors of society have saved" (p 10)
(All citations from The Book (orange text): Hernando de Soto, "The Mystery of Capital. Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else" Bantam Press 2000)
So it's based on OBSERVATION, not academic thinking "what if?"


THE MYTH: THE POOR ARE POOR
"...how much the poorest sectors of society have saved. The quantity is enormous. But most of it is dead capital" (p 10)

"The value of savings among the poor is, in fact, immense: 40 times all the foreign aid received throughout the world since 1945. In Egypt (...) the wealth the poor have accumulated is 45 times as much as the sum of all direct foreign investment ever recorded there, including the Suez Canal and the Aswan Dam.
In Haiti, the poorest nation in Latin America, the total assets of the poor are more than 150 times greater than all the foreign investment received since the country's independence from France in 1804" (p 5)

There's more, but I think that'll do.

So what's the problem? If they have so much, why they are poor?

"But they hold these resources in defective forms: houses built on land whose ownership rights are not adequately recorded, unincorporated businesses with undefined liability, industries located where financiers and investors cannot see them. Because the rights to these possessions are not adequately documented, these assets cannot readily be turned into capital, cannot be traded outside of narrow local circles where people know and trust each other, cannot be used as collateral for a loan and cannot be used as a share against an investment." (p 5)

Right, my fingers are too tired, so that's all for today.

[Spacey]

a general statement:

you can't base everything on one book...just becasue someone puts it in print doesn't mean it's right...

[Firecracker048]

i belive i have made this statement before
but let me repeat
*explicitive* communism!

[Juliette]

That's "expletive", mr. Firecracker.

http://www.weblogsky.com/chaosp.htm
Chaos Politics.
Those are worse.

[Fear Of The Duck]

Hmm... Looks like somebdy else seems to understand the power of CHAOS. Now we can start a topic about, lets say the cause of the World War I (or any other war, like CoP-CIA ).

a general statement:

you can't base everything on one book...just because someone puts it in print doesn't mean it's right...

I agree, it doesn't mean it's right, but after reading The Book you'll have to admit it's the most accurate estimates we have (the methodology is explained in details). And I haven't heard about any other major books on the matter.
For news you can check http://ild.org.pe/home.htm

[The Xeno]

Well... I've been scouring your text, looking for some cause for dissent -
but I still am not sure I was in disagreement with you.

Again, my feeling is simply that an economy must start somewhere, on some level. Be it dealing in massive casino deals, or bicycles.
I am not trying to suggest that a slum will instantly find it's hidden capital... the hurdles mentioned spring to mind... but that doesn't mean a capitalist focus will not still remove other hurdles, and open the way for a slow rise.

It is either that - or you must feel that an economy must first receive a jumpstart from another form (say socialist) before it can switch to capitalist/free market. (Something I haven't really considered - as it has so far seemed self-evident to me that, at least in this case, a certain scalability exists)

[Fear Of The Duck]

Again, my feeling is simply that an economy must start somewhere, on some level.

Yes. Then some things needs to be put in place until it can advance to the next level. All I'm saying is in slums these things are not in place, that's why they cannot advance to capitalism (as there's no mechanisms to create working capital).

Still: read The Book

And when you finish with this there's another one: George Gilder, Wealth and Poverty (with a special dedication to Apophis)

[The Xeno]

Still: read The Book

It's on my list
I'm re-reading W&P atm - the Brothers K. simply eclipsed my emotions over it and I figure five months is long enough for a re-visit anyways.

Yes. Then some things needs to be put in place until it can advance to the next level. All I'm saying is in slums these things are not in place, that's why they cannot advance to capitalism (as there's no mechanisms to create working capital).

I agree... in slums created by an welfarist economy, and not say, a poor desert village, the mechanisms aren't there. But in both cases (primarily the second*), I just want to be sure we're not suggesting that capitalist/free-market approach wouldn't show results... even if those results are ridiculously slower than the short-term derived from radical wealth redistribution.

Which I believe we aren't... For I am merely suggesting a caveat, while agreeing with your point


-----------------
*I am not suggesting a magic bullet...some places are to far gone for even a two generation-shift... let us be clear.

[Fear Of The Duck]

Btw: where's Apophis??? Reading???