Christians Central

[The Xeno]

Maybe if God woud help those things would be possible. He/she/it does not help so it is up to humans not metaphysical beings who do not even act, so why waste time with them?

I feel deja-vu...

Why would not God give a starving kid some food? I say nothing is there and that is why no help is given.

I should think the best answer could also get the Oscar for excellent cop out.
God, with a capital G.

We are not speaking of the physical anymore, and we are dealing with a being (according to the scriptures) who is more than capable of healing all temporal scars, and more than capable of washing away any pain suffered during life.
The child suffers, and ultimately, if there is no God - that suffering leads to a twisted death. If there is a Christian God, the child will suffer during this life, but can expect that suffering to literally be washed away.

Much like the modern amnesia inducing drugs used during some surgery,
you don't remember a thing - so was there actually any pain? In the strict physical example, yes... but scaled up... no.

Either way, I think assuming that the Christian God's only option to ultimately grant bliss to the innocent is by dropping manna from the sky creates a rather small box, and ultimately, assigns Him no more power and knowledge than the humans whose actions have led to the situation.

[Apollo]

The child is deathly ill with leukemia instead, say. The child dies - their agony is eventually "washed away." But what about the ones left behind? The Mother who spends the rest of her days grieving. Her life is forever diminished. The Father who can't cope with the loss, and retreats into alcoholism/drugs/adultery - name your crutch. The siblings who spend their childhoods in terror that maybe the same thing will happen to them. The family that basically gets torn apart. And repeat this instance, or similar ones billions of times. Surely we don't just spend time here on Earth as a waiting room to heaven? That has to be a massive waste. And a mockery of God's design - if there is one.

I can't look at all the kids suffering, let alone the adults, all around the world and still believe in God. A God, any God. I have this quote in another sig of mine -

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Epicurus [341–270 B.C.] Greek philosopher

And it is the crux of my disbelief. If he could do something about, say, Darfur, and doesn't? Then why deserve worship? Yes - people are going to mention free will. But it isn't the free will of the individual when she is raped on a daily basis, her children forced into a militia, her husband dragged away and shot before her eyes. If he allows free will of a few insane individuals to impact upon thousands of people - then he is malevolent. Or helpless. And therefore not God, at least not the one that billions dedicate their time on this world to.

[HellFire]

No one is good, or evil. Thinking makes us so. ~Shakespeare.

Anyways, I'm Christian. But apparently, a fairly odd branch. In our system, we believe that even if you don't believe in god, and are a good person, you ain't going to hell @_@ We believe that there are several 'kingdoms' to heaven. Kinda like, marks. A, B, and C

We believe the only way to enter into Outer Darkness ( Fancy way of saying hell ) Is you have to knowingly walk with Christ ( as in, actually, face to face ) then deny him, by comitting some act of open defiance to him, then, and only then, are you sent to hell.

No matter what kind of phycotic killer, or whomever you may be, in our religion, you would be sent to the 'lowest' kingdom, where God doesn't reside. Therefore, you're not in his presence with 'tainted heart' or any some such.

There's alot more to this, but since I 'really' dun' wanna veer too far off of the topic, there's one thing my religion states. Religion and science, should always walk hand in hand; if they don't, something is wrong.

There are 'alot' of different Christian churches, with very 'very' different views upon everything. Like, mine believes you don't even have to attend church, and that there is teaching in the afterlife, so that you may attend the 'highest level of glory'.

Now, seeing as I posted about this, comments and arguements, I'm very willing to play with S'long as it isn't clearly hostile >>;

~HellFire

[El TC]

No one is good, or evil. Thinking makes us so. ~Shakespeare.

Anyways, I'm Christian. But apparently, a fairly odd branch. In our system, we believe that even if you don't believe in god, and are a good person, you ain't going to hell @_@ We believe that there are several 'kingdoms' to heaven. Kinda like, marks. A, B, and C

We believe the only way to enter into Outer Darkness ( Fancy way of saying hell ) Is you have to knowingly walk with Christ ( as in, actually, face to face ) then deny him, by comitting some act of open defiance to him, then, and only then, are you sent to hell.

No matter what kind of phycotic killer, or whomever you may be, in our religion, you would be sent to the 'lowest' kingdom, where God doesn't reside. Therefore, you're not in his presence with 'tainted heart' or any some such.

There's alot more to this, but since I 'really' dun' wanna veer too far off of the topic, there's one thing my religion states. Religion and science, should always walk hand in hand; if they don't, something is wrong.

There are 'alot' of different Christian churches, with very 'very' different views upon everything. Like, mine believes you don't even have to attend church, and that there is teaching in the afterlife, so that you may attend the 'highest level of glory'.

Now, seeing as I posted about this, comments and arguements, I'm very willing to play with S'long as it isn't clearly hostile >>;

~HellFire

I was waiting for you

Can you show me where any of these doctrines can be found in the Bible? thanks

Apollo: To give someone a choice is not malevolent.

[Fear Of The Duck]

Do you believe or do you know?

i know what i said. human society is a system in a critical state. that's a fact. but i believe (no way to prove it) in your explanation (if i got it right).

so if i got it right you're saying the pain and all suffering around (*takes a look around* yeah!) results from human inability to "rule themselves". in other words humans are sinful (that's another fact) and the activity of devil.

why?

i don't know how familiar you are with systems and critical states so let me get into more detail.
let's take a pot of water. above 0C water is liquid. below 0C it's solid. so how does it look like in the temperature of exactly 0C? some parts of the pot are liquid and some solid. the "map" is always changing as the particles interact and influence one another so some liquid areas are turning into ice, some solid into liquid. this is how the critical state looks like.

now let's take a look at ppl. to make things easier let's say a person can be either good or evil. paint evil ppl purple, good ppl green. as we know ppl have free will and are more or less sinful, thus can decide whether to be good or evil.

in heaven all ppl are extremely good (they'll never chose evil) so there's no pain and suffering there cos nobdy inflicts it. heaven is all green.

in hell ppl are evil so that's why it's hell as everybody inflicts pain on everybody else. hell is purple.

in this world we have, as i said, critical state with ppl freely making decisions to do good or evil influencing others around.
now, if ppl weren't sinful and there was no devil they wouldn't be able to chose to do evil.

Why would not God give a starving kid some food?

God acts through us, He tells us to give some food, but we can disobey. i know a good joke that explains this, but i'm not sure if i can post it here and not offend anybody. so if you want it pm me.

[El TC]

now let's take a look at ppl. to make things easier let's say a person can be either good or evil.

No, I believe the point here is why does God permit human suffering, starvations, murder, rapes, wars etc. without intervening. I will now attempt to explain it to you using nothing but the Bible, which is the way it should be. I will first take you back to the origin of the problem and then elaborate:

The first book of the Bible tells us of an opposer of God who showed up in the garden of Eden. He is described as "the serpent", but he was not a mere animal. The last book of the Bible identifies him as "the one called Devil and satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth". He is also called "the original serpent".(Genesis 3:1) This powerful angel, or invisible spirit creature, used a serpent to speak to Eve, even as a skilled person can make it seem that his voice is coming from a doll or dummy. That spirit person had no doubt been present when God prepared the earth for humans.

Since all of God's creations are perfect, however, who made "Devil," this "Satan"? Put simply, one of the powerful spirit sons of God turned himself into the devil. How was this possible? Well, today a person who was once decent and honest may become a thief. How does that happen? The person may allow a wrong desire to develop in his heart. If he keeps thinking about it, that wrong desire may become very strong. Then if the opportunity presents itself, he may act upon the desire that he has been thinking about.( James 1:13-15)

This happened in the case of Satan the Devil. He apparently heard God tell Adam and Eve to have children and to fill the earth with their offspring. ( Genesis 1: 27, 28) "Why, all these humans could worship me instead of God" Satan evidently thought. So a wrong desire built up in his heart. Eventually he took action to deceive Eve by telling her lies about God. (Genesis 3:1-5)He thus became a "Devil", which means "Slanderer". At the same time, he became "Satan", which means "Opposer".

By using lies and trickery, Satan the Devil caused Adam and Eve to disobey God. (Genesis 3:17-19)As a result, they eventually died, as God said they would if they disobeyed. Since Adam became imperfect when he sinned, all his offspring inherited sin from him.( Romans 5:12)

When Satan led Adam and Eve into sinning against God, he was really leading a rebellion. He was challenging God's way of ruling. In effect, Satan was saying: God is a bad ruler. He tells lies and holds back good things from his subjects. Humans do not need to have God ruling over them. They can decide for themselves what is good and what is bad. And they will be better off under my rulership.
How would God handle such an insulting challenge? Some say God should simply have put the rebels to death. But would that have answered Satan's challenge? Would it have proved that God's way of ruling is right?

God's perfect sense of justice would not allow him to put the rebels to death right away. He decided that time was needed to answer Satan's challenge in a satisfying way and to prove that the Devil is a liar. So God determined that he would permit humans to rule themselves for some time under Satan's influence.

Now, on the question who rules this world:

Jesus never doubted that Satan is the ruler of this world. In some miraculous way, Satan once showed Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory." Satan then promised Jesus:" All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me". (Matthew 4:8,9 Luke 4:5, 6)Think about this. Would that offer have been a temptation to Jesus if Satan was not the ruler of these kingdoms?? Jesus did not deny that all these worldly governments were Satan's. Surely, Jesus would have done that if Satan was not the power behind them.

Of course, God is the creator of our universe. (Revelation 4:11)Yet, nowhere does the Bible say that either God or Jesus Christ is the ruler of this world. In fact, Jesus specifically referred to Satan as" the ruler of this world." (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11). More amazing is the Bible even refers to Satan the Devil as "the god of this system of things."(2. Corynthians 4:3,4). Regarding the opposer, or Satan, the apostle John wrote:"The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."(1 John 5:19)

Now for the real juicy bits: Why does God allow suffering?

If God is all powerful, loving, wise, and just, why is the world so full of hatred and injustice? Most often, and even on this thread, the response is that suffering is God's will and that he long ago determined everything that would ever happen, including tragic events. Many say God's ways are mysterious or that he brings death upon people, even children, so that he can have them in heaven with him. But as we can see, God never causes what is bad. The Bible says: "Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly. (Job 34:10)

I think by now you know why ppl make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world. In most cases, they blame him because they think he is the real ruler of the world. They do not know a simple truth that the Bible teaches. I explained that truth above and it is that the real ruler of the world is Satan the Devil.

If you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is "misleading the entire inhabited earth." Satan is hateful, deceptive and cruel. So the world under his influence is full of hatred, deceit and cruelty. This is one reason why there is so much suffering.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance and this results in wars, oppression and suffering (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)

A third reason for suffering is "time and unforseen occurance". In a world without God as a protective ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is good to know from this that God does not cause suffering. He is not responsable for the wars, oppression, murder or even natural disasters that cause ppl to suffer. Still, you probably want to know why God allows this suffering? If he is Allmighty, he has the power to stop it. Why then, does he hold back? He must have a good reason so let's dive right into the last part of my post

To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying God, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question God's power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to God's power. Rather, Satan questioned God's right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from his subjects, Satan charged that God is a bad ruler. (Genesis 3:2-5) Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God's rulership. This was an attack on God's sovereignty, his right to rule.

Adam and Eve rebelled against God. In effect they said "We do not need God as our ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong." How could God settle that issue? How could he teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that his way truly is the best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But God had stated his purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and he wanted them to live in paradise. God always fullfills hispurposes (Isaiah 55:10, 11) Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding God's right to rule.

Now, let's imagine a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher's way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do?If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other studnets? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those that joined him are right? All the other students in the class might loose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.

God has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching (Job 38:7, Daniel 7:10) How God handled the rebelllion would greatly affect all those angles and eventually all intelligent creation. So what has God done? He allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan's guidance.

The teacher in my example knows the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter will removes any rebels from the class. Similarily, God knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves.

What though about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus' sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection.

Could all this suffering have been prevented if God had created Adam and Eve in such a way that they could not rebel? The answer to that question is that God gave us all a very special and precious gift. It is calledFree Will.

As someone has stated earlier, humans were created with free will. We have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what couse of life to persue, what friednships to form and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy. God is not interested in service under compulsion (2 Corinthians 9:7)
What would please a parent more- achild saying" I love you" because he is told to say it or his saying it freely from the heart? So the question is, how will you use the free will that God has given you?

You can take a stand on God's side. You will make God rejoice because from now on you take an active part in proving Satan a liar and a miserable failure as a ruler (Proverbs 27:11)

So go ahead, give that starving child some bread, the choice is yours.

[Fear Of The Duck]

very good explanation of what's this all about and why. makes sense and i can't see any flows in your logic (didn't check the quotations from the Bible though).
one thing i don't understand is why you start replying to my posts with "no". i was talking about how it works on this world technically, you said why and for what purpose. 2 different aspects of the same

and practical advice (from my personal experience): give the child bread but don't give it money. you'll never know what it's gonna do with money.

[El TC]

God acts through us, He tells us to give some food, but we can disobey.

yeah sorry bout that, I still wanted to change that but didn't have the time still, this actually ties in perfectly.

[Apollo]

As someone has stated earlier, humans were created with free will. We have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what couse of life to persue, what friednships to form and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy. God is not interested in service under compulsion (2 Corinthians 9:7)

But that's my point - we don't all have free will. Many people are trapped in horrifying situations because their choices have been taken from them by a despotic few. Why can't God do something about that? Or why won't he?

Your arguments work for well fed First World inhabitants who have the choice of which path to take on their daily lives. But not for the masses who are being subjugated in this realm. They just want to be able to bring up their families to be free from atrocities. Eventual salvation is a poor comfort to someone who can't feed their kids, or keep them safe from roving militia bent on rape and murder.

[The Xeno]

They just want to be able to bring up their families to be free from atrocities. Eventual salvation is a poor comfort to someone who can't feed their kids, or keep them safe from roving militia bent on rape and murder.

And I ask you, what comfort is there in denying such?

But that's my point - we don't all have free will. Many people are trapped in horrifying situations because their choices have been taken from them by a despotic few. Why can't God do something about that? Or why won't he?

Now I am not a stoic, and I do not believe in temporal karma: This world is unjust, and we have fairly little say (physically) on our situation.

I'm not saying we can't make a difference in our surroundings, but I am apt to agree with both Tolstoy and Asimov - ultimately, in human interaction, there is a gray spot where the combined desires and ambitions of those in a pursuit are guided or randomized (depending on if you choose T. or A.)

The difference I suppose, between that and watching the horror show of humanity - is (either T. or A.) still leave you amazed at how much good manages to escape the will of that despotic few - the type of story that all to often turns into a sappy disney make, or is sterotyped and lodged into either generic christian, or generic feel good.

Certainly, if there is a God, we know that in the past few days he has not dropped bread loafs over paris, or sent flying pigs across the atlantic: but we do not know how many have found some kind of comfort during the past hours through their belief, let alone actual intervention.

Your arguments work for well fed First World inhabitants who have the choice of which path to take on their daily lives.

Might be the reason free-will, and free-country, have become diluted.
But that said, it may be you are confusing the chicken with the egg - I know of many friends, and a few neighbors, who have only created new choices by repeatedly slamming themselves against what seemed a solid wall - and thier motivations were driven in part by their religion, in part, but enough in at least one case to tip the scales.

The question I have is, had there been no religion, would there have been anything to fill in it's power? I'm still looking.




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I call it: The Void of Bad Pasting and Erroneous Post Submition In Grey #5

[El TC]

Why can't God do something about that? Or why won't he?

This has been answered in my post allready.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance and this results in wars, oppression and suffering (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9)

A third reason for suffering is "time and unforseen occurance". In a world without God as a protective ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Apollo]

A third reason for suffering is "time and unforseen occurance". In a world without God as a protective ruler, people may suffer because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sure - that's what you said. But I don't accept it as a good enough reason. It's a cop out. "I was drinking behind the wheel and I ploughed into the children crossing the road. Meh. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time." That statement does not end all responsibilty. If he created this world - then he gave up on it. An Almighty Being has the power to stop these being "wrong places."

The difference I suppose, between that and watching the horror show of humanity - is (either T. or A.) still leave you amazed at how much good manages to escape the will of that despotic few - the type of story that all to often turns into a sappy disney make, or is sterotyped and lodged into either generic christian, or generic feel good.

The good that is performed in these times of hate is not God driven either, but humane acts by real people. To make an example - Oskar Schindler was not motivated by his Catholiscism, but by watching the people suffering, and learning from them. Paul/Saul may have had a religious experience on the road to Damascus, but most people's epiphanies come from being amongst humanity.


I am not going to go ranting and raving about how religion tears up the world, but I do want to answer one point of yours.

The question I have is, had there been no religion, would there have been anything to fill in it's power? I'm still looking.

There is something to fill the void and unite people. Truth. An example - the current world wide motivation to try prevent Global Warming. Countries of profoundly different faiths are working, both on their own and together, to change things on a massive scale. China usually refuses to pay any attention to demands from other nations - but even so they are looking for ways to make their population have less of an impact. The truth has been out there for a long time, but the wake up call spread by scientists and helped along by Al Gore has had a larger and more profound effect on the world then the actions by a current religious motivated Preside- person. So far no one has been slaughtered in the pursuit of Earth's salvation. Whereas spreading the word of (insert your faith of choice here) has resulted in that millions of times.



Also Xeno - I forgot to mention. Thanks for taking my post so seriously as to research a decent reply. I am honoured by the effort you made. Cheers.

I don't pretend to have an advanced education, and I don't have texts to draw from (E.G. an Atheist's Bible Online) so all my words here are from my heart. Try to pick me apart in laymen's terms.

[El TC]

If he created this world - then he gave up on it. An Almighty Being has the power to stop these being "wrong places."

no, that's what the Bible says not me. Did you even read my post? There is a clear reason why He doesn't and it's explained in the Bible and my post but you choose to ignore it, makes me wonder what you are really looking for or what you are trying to do. Would make sense if you not a Christian though in which case it would make sense why you don't see the truth.

.... That statement does not end all responsibilty. If he created this world - then he gave up on it. An Almighty Being has the power to stop these being "wrong places."

Again, we know why He doesn't stop it even with all his powers. Secondly, He did not give up on it, there is a clear reason why the things are the way they are. Your reply shows me that you did not read my post.

Christians know that God exists and use his Word the Bible as the only Authority when it comes to answering these or any other questions.

I have explained with the use of the Bible why things are the way they are, why God doesn't intervene and why there is so much suffering but you are not satisfied and that is your personal choice. Maybe Christianity is not for you?

[The Xeno]

There is something to fill the void and unite people. Truth.

Aye but what truth? That we as human beings are nothing more than atoms, nothing save the sum or our parts, with nothing more or less than animal desires - and no reason not to submit and embrace them.
We are entreating a world in which the goal of humanity is not happiness through one filter, but individual pursuit of individual pleasure - be it solving world hunger, or eradicating inferior species - a world in which there is no single truth, save perhaps death and taxes - and should we solve those, we still won't have saved our parents, or the generation that bore them, from the reaper.

It leads to a complete blurring of traditional understanding - and while I will be the last to suggest that a things age gives it an inherent trump - in this case, I don't see what we will gain by choosing a world where rape is dismissed, humanity is divided by evolutionary leaps, and Co2 replaces God as the reason for 'doing good'.

An example - the current world wide motivation to try prevent Global Warming.

Now this is going to lead to a debate on global warming
I'll come back to it.

The good that is performed in these times of hate is not God driven either, but humane acts by real people.

Unless you believe that in most cases, altruism makes no evolutionary sense - and what compassion is buried in humanity, has a higher origin than a binary check of nerve pulses.

An example - the current world wide motivation to try prevent Global Warming.

Now you see, oddly enough, I would also choose global warming as an anti-religious slogan - but I would approach it from the standpoint of the masses being deceived and led by an oligarchy of 'inspired' leaders, to their followers detriment.
I would use it as an example of how governments can be subverted by a multi-national movement - and how politicians can be bought or perverted by fervor.
I would use it as an example of how science can be waylaid, twisted, and used for biased and emotional purposes.

But of course, I have a completely different view on it.
I see Gore as a politician, I see MTV as a potato chip, and I see h20 not co2 as the real culprit.

So far no one has been slaughtered in the pursuit of Earth's salvation. Whereas spreading the word of (insert your faith of choice here) has resulted in that millions of times.

Give it time The Crusaders have yet to elect a sympathetic pope.
When that happens, there will be a new minority - and then I think we may find the conspiracy theories behind future wars are no longer about oil, but corn.

Also Xeno - I forgot to mention. Thanks for taking my post so seriously as to research a decent reply. I am honoured by the effort you made. Cheers.

I must return the compliment.
Though researched I is not.

[TheWay]

Wow that was alot to catch up on sorry I have been gone I ahve been real busy in RL. I am very impressed with all the disscussion from both sides and sad I missed out on the daily banter.

Let me if I may answer some of the issues that seem to have been left open or at least were not completely satisfied

First to go way back to page 4, the question of what is Sin was raised in regards to the issue of sin of thought in contrast to action. Well, simply put the definition of sin is to fall short of the mark and in the Christian world view the mark is Christ who was and is perfect, this make sthe dfinition very clear that sin is not an issue of degrees or even strictly morality it is an issue of failure to reach perfection. You see when sin came into the world and hence into us it seperated us from a perfect God. Being that none of us can obtain perfection on our own or by our own merit, God sent his only son to pay the penalty for all sin (imperfection) past present future for all mankind. Now with that something else also occured Christ did not just die for us but to be technical he also lived in place of us, which is a theological term called imputted rightousness. So his death and life was sufficient to bring all mankind back to God, but not all of mankind would except this help or even believe they needed it, therefor the acts of Christ are sufficient for all but only sufficient for those that choose to believe.

Next issue is that of Suffering, or more specifiaclly God's rule in suffering, there is tons of scripture that one can use to illustrate many different views on this subject but for sake of clarity and simplification let me just elaborate upon the Clasical Christian view and that is that God is most defiantly in controll of all things including the earth and even the Devil (this is clearly illustrated in the book of Job) Now this is where the issue gets tough and I believe in intellectual honesty so I am not affraid to say this issue is a tough one. If God is in controll why then does he allow such heart ache aka somalia, or darfur? Well the answer unfornunatly requires us to do something we are not very good at and that is to stop thinking in relitive and short sided ways. I would point you to the fact that when God sent his son to earth he sent him to be persecuted, not because God desires pain but because we grow through trails, it is what makes us strong. Now I am not meaning to say that Christ suffered to be stronger but the fact that he was sent to suffer illustrates two things one God doesnt worry about the short term but only the eternal and two he has not asked us to suffer anything worse then what he himsself endured, and I would point out that he is the creator of the universe who indured it not just a man but God wwhom humbled himself to suffer for us who hung him on a cross.

When we look at a situation in Darfur we get angry at God we say why why have you allowed this but like some others have attested too, be careful when you start to point fingers because God is still in Drafur and doing muh more then any of us sitting here at our cpus. I can tell you right at this moment there are people in all these areas whom in the midst of their suffering rejoice not because their suffering has been removed but because it doesnt matter, because the more they suffer the more the become like Christ, the closer to God they become, they rejoice because this time of pain is fleeting but their hope is in eternal life. I understand bad things happen but for the Christian death has no sting and suffering only brings us closer to God because when we are at our worst we realy on him who has all the strength so then as scripture says when we are weak then we are strong (because we are no longer relying on our strength but Gods)

I hope this helps and I understand some of you may not understand these answers but thats okay, and I value your oppinions I just encourage you to continue to be honest and seek truth no matter where it may lead, you see by doing this I know where the truth leads to the only true truth giver.

I have time now so please respond dont be affraid to be tough with be (while still being respectful) because you wont hurt my feelings okay