The bible

[Danakor]

Okay after much reading(8 pages oye). I am ready to post my opinon.

Let Me start by saying that I am a Bhuddist. I used to be a southern baptist.

Now Afentius you bring up some valid points but you also let your christian believes pollute your judgement(not a bad thing just makes it hard to see the truth[not litteral truth here i am not going to argue that the bible is wrong or god is not real going to argue on what I know]). couple o points for you Af:

1. Christanity is not the oldest religion.(what was there when the romans crucified Jesus?)

2. Cults are recgonized as religions by today standards. What don't belive me go down to the local army recuriting center and when you sign up there is an option under religion for druid....

3. No woman were included in the writing of the bible/men should be the head of the church and household. Okay thats just plain sexist. If woman should not have anything to do with religion why was Mary Magdelene said to be Jesus closet descipile(sp). There is also a 'lost' section of the bible that is mary magdelenes transcription. There are at least 2 chapels/churches that are dedicated to St. Magdelene.... Yes I am focusing on Mary Magedelenine quite a bit, but thats because she was the only female desciple(god someone help my spelling).

Orici, time for your turn. Your couple of points were also valid but you two are being blinded by your stubborness.

1. Just because science can provide us with some answers you can just blow off all religions.(yes I know your catholic).

2. If the Bible is false like you have so fervently argued then that means that tehre has been mass genocide, and some hell of some coincedences in history.(case and point science saying that a volcano erupting almost 3000 miles away from saddam and gamora(sp), causing the death of both cities.

Come Forth and Xeno. You both did a great job riding the fence but you still get caught up on one thing.

1. You keep arguing over how god would be imperfect and should he be perfect? Perfection in itself is unattainable but when compared to humans perfection is very attainable. to be perfect to us all you have to do is rid yourself of all flaws. your stuck on the whole sex thing. This is where xeno made a great point there is no difference in perfection between male and female. Come Forth yuor looking at it like perfection is more about being effecient then being perfect. But I do agree with come forth in that god would have o be neuter(without sex) why? well if it had a sec it would prefer one sex over the other. clearly it doesn't.

Now for some questions that I would like to have answered..... if anyone can help me with these.

1. Jesus is God's sun...So how can Jesus BE God?

2. God inciminated Mary to have Jesus...Soooo technicaly if Mary and Joseph have any more children they are brothers/sisters of Jesus. Thus making them related to God, Right?

3. Is it so hard to belive that Jesus Procreated while he was on Earth? I mean even the bible says that he was seen kissing Mary Magdeleine on the cheek and on the lips?

Yes I do not believe in the Bible and Yes I do believe the whole divinci code/holy blood holy grail theories.

Everything that I have said can be easily picked apart and thrown out and so forth and such. I am kinda playing devils advocate here pointing out flaws in all the theories.

And I shall leave on one last note. A great theologist once said:
"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

-- D. Adams, The Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy

[Liv4Christ]

1. Jesus is God's sun...So how can Jesus BE God?

ok God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. together they are the Trinity(A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity)

3. Is it so hard to belive that Jesus Procreated while he was on Earth? I mean even the bible says that he was seen kissing Mary Magdeleine on the cheek and on the lips?

where dose it say that?

[Mr GoodKat]

My 5 cents.

If God created the Universe, where was he before he did? He had to be somewhere, in order for him to create it. Was he in the no where which was the universe before it's "creation"? If he was, he can't exist. Afterall, there is nothing, in no where.

[The Xeno]

If woman should not have anything to do with religion why was Mary Magdelene said to be Jesus closet descipile(sp).

At no point does it say "women are to have no part in this religion"
Quite the opposite, as I've said before, the fact that women such as magdelene are such important figures is enough to convince me that they are far from being shut out.

2. God inciminated Mary to have Jesus...Soooo technicaly if Mary and Joseph have any more children they are brothers/sisters of Jesus. Thus making them related to God, Right?

Not in a blood sense, because Mary is not divine.
Legally, yes, he had brothers and sisters.

3. Is it so hard to belive that Jesus Procreated while he was on Earth? I mean even the bible says that he was seen kissing Mary Magdeleine on the cheek and on the lips?

Simple/short version:
The Orthodox Church, the Church that would have been responsible for any cover-up, did not, and does not see any cataclysmic theological problem with Jesus 'getting married'.

The lack of belief stems from the lack of evidence, not some theological fear of hypocrisy.

well if it had a sec it would prefer one sex over the other. clearly it doesn't.

Nevertheless, He is referred to as the Father, which carries more than just some biological reference. As Come_Forth[D12] has stated, it is much more about 'personality' than physical organs or a sexist agenda.

If God created the Universe, where was he before he did? He had to be somewhere, in order for him to create it. Was he in the no where which was the universe before it's "creation"? If he was, he can't exist. Afterall, there is nothing, in no where.

That is also the basis for arguments against evolution. 'Something' must have existed. Be it electron-particles, or a being that does not abide by our scientific rules.

I am more inclined to believe in God, than the electron particles. The electron particles follow our rules, God does not.

[Come_Forth]

1. Jesus is God's sun...So how can Jesus BE God?

There is a school of Christian thought called Arianism. I had to wrote a paper on it for history class lol. Basically they think that Jesus started out as a human but then God "adopted" him and gave him the God powers and stuff.

I find problems with the normal view that Jesus was both God and man because if he had God powers he would be a God not a man.

I wonder if Mary wanted to have become the mother of Jesus? Did she have a say in the matter?

[Osi]

anyone who believe the davinci code stuff is misguided...as all books related to that subject are fiction novels....

also I didn't dismiss other religions. I believe that many of the worlds religions could be true but related to one diety and his servants(God/angels-Zues/lesser gods)

also I never said the bible was false as a whole but that most of it was fictisious

Read everything Danakor and look at the true points of my arguement

thank you and goodnioght this is my last post here as this has dissolved into something slightly pointless.

[The Xeno]

Just for the record, Arianism was soundly refuted at the second ecumenical council. Groups that believe Arianism have thus been officially separate from the Christian mainstream since 381 AD (not that they were ever mainstream to begin with).

[Come_Forth]

Constantine wanted a unified government so he wanted Christianity to be unified so he called for the Council of Nicaea which banned Arianism but then Arianism took over for few years and was the standard teaching of the Roman Empire (Constantine exiles Athanasius so there will only be Arians in power) but the emperor Julian came along and he hated Christianity so he pull Athanasius out of exile and Athanasius converted everyone back to the standard Christianity. One of Constantine's sons was a Arian. Council of Sirmium reversed the Council of Nicaea but then the Council of Constantinople (ordered by the emperor Theodosius) reversed the ruling at Sirmium and put the Council of Nicaea back in place.

It is still a popular belief today.

[semper]

omg xeno..this must be one of those culteral differences..because in engand..like most, if not all people i speak to agree gender as imperfection..and that the simple fact the bible claims god as being a him is a sign it is wrong..

i shall sing it..
wrong wrong wrong...

but as you cannot actually disprove it..other then saying you dont understand..i..well i do believe i have proven it! eureka!

right..and i know like nothing of constantine..so this is where i run off..until we move back to solely god and religeon..ill be watching and waiting..

[The Xeno]

(Constantine exiles Athanasius so there will only be Arians in power)

Iirc, the exiling is the result of Pro-Arians accusing Athanasius of interfering with grain shipments to egypt. This is after the same group of Pro-Arians failed to get him exiled in a previous synod because Constantine overturned their decision.

Council of Sirmium reversed the Council of Nicaea but then the Council of Constantinople (ordered by the emperor Theodosius) reversed the ruling at Sirmium and put the Council of Nicaea back in place.

I wouldn't say reversed. Modified perhaps?
The First Sirmium council, 347 AD, was conveaned against a pro-arian bishop Photinus, in response to an earlier convention that brought him up for trial, so to speak.
It failed to achieve anything, either way.

The Second Sirmium council 351 AD resulted in a semi-Arian victory, and the removal of Photinus from office.

A Third Council was held at Sirmium in 357 AD; and resulted in a breif Arian victory, with the The Seventh Arian Confession .

The fourth and final council held in 358 AD failed to achieve anything either way, and was more of a compromise.

right..and i know like nothing of constantine..so this is where i run off..until we move back to solely god and religeon..ill be watching and waiting..

Heh, I think we've moved into early Church history. A field I haven't really researched.
It's quite interesting, and I thank Come_forth for spurring me to the books.

omg xeno..this must be one of those culteral differences..because in engand..like most, if not all people i speak to agree gender as imperfection..and that the simple fact the bible claims god as being a him is a sign it is wrong..

Heh. Once again, I do not see how Gender implies inherent imperfection.
Being male, female or sexless may have some impact on a thing's ability to live in the physical world, but carries no metaphysical connotations of value/imperfection. The same goes for other physical traits,
Else we might find Hilter or Pol Pot theologicaly sound in dismissing the lives of certian humans.

[Guest]

so which way should the discussion go now?

[Come_Forth]

Guest was me.

[The Xeno]

so which way should the discussion go now?

Eh, Penegal isn't back yet, and neither is Danakor.
I'm sure there will be some new branch by morning.

Meh, untill then, might I say that I have really enjoyed this?
I'd like to think that i've learned a fair bit about my own faith, as well as those of others. An unusualy nice outcome given the thread was spawned by a troll, and a testemant to the participent's (mostly) civil discourse.

A refreshing change from the normal atmosphere of the forum.

[Danakor]

Although my knowledge of the bible and biblical stories and such is very limited.(havent read the bible since I was like 8 years old)

By Davinci code theories i simply mean the thought that mary magdelene and Jesus had a child. Despite what you think orici this is not based on a fiction story, this is actually based on some truth. In ethopia thee was a female who came over in a boat with a child whos name was mary, and she came right at the time that jesus had gone for the second time. In Ethopia there is also a church dedicated to St. Mary( who is represented by a dark skinned female with a child in her arms). Now granted the whole thing is kind of like a giant coincedence but you gotta admit that thats one heck of a coincedence..

As far as the constantine and other person argument I have no clue the only constantine I know about is the movie. Sorry I know but its bad but hey not a bible scholar.

And for you liv-4-christ there is actually a section(not sure what section) but I believe its in the testament of John. At the last supper where just before he leaves he kisses her and all the disciples are disgusted by it.

[Come_Forth]

I do not really buy the DaVinci code theory. I am a history major and I do not see much evidence for the theory. The Merovingian line (the royal line the theory said that Jesus started) was one of the weakest royal lines in history, surely Jesus could do better than that