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I put the word "free" in quotes because the average Joe/anne on the street hasn't got a clue what a "free" society should look like , which is why they still call (the UK at least) any country with a democracy "a free country/society", you know better so there was no need for me to explain as evidenced by the fact you knew what i was talking about

as Ben Franklin said, "democracy means 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner"
...or words to that affect.



I haven't followed what's been going on in the east for the past week and i was hoping the trouble would spill over across the Med and into Spain and from there spread right across the EU and from there the entire world...just to be clear to 1 and all reading what i just wrote...i am NOT in favour of society breaking down and drowning in the deep dark abyss of anarchy, that helps no one!


True freedom is IMHO (and aside from other obvious reasons, such as family) probably the only thing worth dying for both to attain and to defend.

I haven't followed what's been going on in the east for the past week and i was hoping the trouble would spill over across the Med and into Spain and from there spread right across the EU and from there the entire world...just to be clear to 1 and all reading what i just wrote...i am NOT in favour of society breaking down and drowning in the deep dark abyss of anarchy, that helps no one!

You realize it's contradictory?

If you want those troubles to happen here, you will cause anarchy. Or a military coup d'Etat. Dictatorship or anarchy. This wouldn't be let's all unite together for a bright future, sit there talk about future and clap our hands in front of camp fire and sing Cumbaya.

And who would do that, in our democracies? I know that for France, and likely sure for Italy too, that it would be damn leftists who want to start a revolution.
So excuse me if I prefer to live in a European Union of democracies rather than in such rogue and freedomstripping nations -if revolution was to happen here-...

Hey Jim, good to see you my old AK mate


I don't see it as contradictory (though i do understand what you're saying and you do have valid points).If people recognize exactly what needs to be done, that would obviously require organisation from people and organisations who understand the problem to quickly inform, educate and organise the masses...IF the people can be informed and educated, otherwise it could become a real mess.

people need to stop depending on others/governments to lead them and lead themselves, nuff said. Thomas Hobbes also said when speaking about natural law, "Do not that to another, which thou wouldst not have done to thy selfe." There is often the misconception that their is no order in Anarcy/Natural Law but many societies have lived in peace and harmony (for the most part), with no centeral authoritan figure. The problem for the most part is a vast majority of people do not want to have to make responsible decesions about everything in life, and thus often seek anothers lead, which is fine for the most part, I do this, but you have consented at this point. Where you may not consent to be governed by the choices of the dominating social class, but you have no control till the next 4 years and that point your choice may not even have enough value to find representation that would govern by your consent. At this point it doesnt matter if you vote left or right, they are one in the same, the whole thing is an illusion to manufacture your consent.

So I am impelled to do that which would seperate myself from the political bands and assume amoung the powers of the earth (these words should look familiar). I would rather live in a life where I have to take responsibility for every damn choice I make, then have a government that doesn't protect my god given rights and would rather do all they can to remove them. My only question for the rest of you is, are you a slave or a citizen?

[KMA]Avenger wrote:
I agree with most of Mez's opening post in this thread but i will say that, if an ID card is accepted in the US and is proved to work and cannot be faked...where does that leave the rest of the "free" world?

with a form of id that cant be faked ??? hmm seems ok to me the only people who have to worry are the people that have somthing to hide, but what do i know

appears to be a great idea..

I believe it would make the country much safer for those those that just want to live.
would make it much harder for criminals and terrorists and also people with bad intentions.

i wouldn't mind if the country took the DNA of every single person and kept it on record and kept a record of all newborns..

I believe Iceland is doing this already.

KnowLedge wrote:appears to be a great idea..

I believe it would make the country much safer for those those that just want to live.
would make it much harder for criminals and terrorists and also people with bad intentions.

i wouldn't mind if the country took the DNA of every single person and kept it on record and kept a record of all newborns..

I believe Iceland is doing this already.

The DNA idea sounds good in theory as most of these security idea's do, but DNA can be planted and and you can avoid leaving it behind with the right precautions, nothing is foolproof and serious criminals like terrorists ( who are used as the excuse for most of these kind of measures ) soon find ways around any new security introduced.

Basically security is as big an illusion as freedom, and both these illusions are just tools used to keep the populous under control.

Dark Lord Tacoma wrote:

[KMA]Avenger wrote:
I agree with most of Mez's opening post in this thread but i will say that, if an ID card is accepted in the US and is proved to work and cannot be faked...where does that leave the rest of the "free" world?

with a form of id that cant be faked ??? hmm seems ok to me the only people who have to worry are the people that have somthing to hide, but what do i know

That's the same tired old argument "if you have nothing to hide", maybe i do have something to hide, maybe i place GREAT value on my privacy and the privacy of my family, maybe i don't trust my Govt to look after a pile of dog crap without them trying to steal it, maybe i don't have anything to hide but i simply don't trust you and don't want someone like you (and everyone else) to know who i am, maybe i'm just paranoid...who the hell cares what the reason is at the end of the day...

Sorry but i don't accept the argument "if you have nothing to hide", that's just not good enough for me to relinquish ANY of my privacy...and if i maybe so bold...it shouldn't be good enough for you either!


As for the Govt having mine and my family's DNA...OVER MY DEAD BODY!


GREAT posts by Mez and Ifrit!

@ Jim : Hobbes describes something that is less than a fraction of what complex relations are between people and what we call society. I won't go as far as to call him a dilettante but his work is incomplete and biased. The people that built this ridiculous world were (also) inspired by his works.
@ KnowLedge : How exactly, i mean factually would that help us?
@ Dark Lord Tacoma : Yes, i do have something to hide. Its called privacy.

I would like to point out that this creates precedent. While most will say "i don't care, doesn't bother me" and "we're already there with this and that", please try and extrapolate the idea of the Government trying to imply they can assure your personal well being and security on a macro level. That's a ridiculous dream and I for one will be looking to see beyond such ludicrous reasons too see reality from the manufactured.

Mittenz wrote:@ Jim : Hobbes describes something that is less than a fraction of what complex relations are between people and what we call society. I won't go as far as to call him a dilettante but his work is incomplete and biased. The people that built this ridiculous world were (also) inspired by his works.

I unfortunately don't know his whole theory (but I know the basics), but you might take the context, it was during English civil war (Charles Ist just got executed, and Cromwell instaured Commonwealth, great anarchy in between), something that most seen as a terrible thing back then, as monarchies excepted the Netherlands, were the ruling form around Europe. However, his works indeed inspired the building of democracies.
"Ridiculous world": if that's not a biased point of view... What would be ridiculous is to live in anarchy. Because most of archaic societies who didn't have contact with others until lately (Amazonia, New Guinea,...) have an organisation, even if it's simple, they all have a hierarchy, and different roles, more or less organised. People who say anarchy would work are utterly biased and utopian regarding human's goodness.

And could I know who's the man if Hobbes is that much of an amateur?

Well Jim, looking at the current status of "democracy" and society, one might say we could have done a better job. But, let us work our way further.
My name is not justice, i will present my own thoughts and ideas. Is that being biased?
I did not say he was an amateur, i just said his work should not be a brick in anyone's ideas about society should be. But that's just me, feel free to be your own man!

What do you mean "it will go global", it allready is global lol.

And that includes countries with a more democratic and free society than the US which nurses this insanely paranoid ID doc fobia lol.