StarGateWars Forums

The Conservative Party did promise a referendum on EU membership in the event that we were elected to government, but unfortunately we weren't. We are merely the majority party in a two party coalition. Both sides have had to make compromises, and sacrifice certain parts of their manifesto, and this was one of ours. Our relationship with Europe is undoubtedly a contentious issue, but both coalition partners agree that getting the deficit under control and the economy back on track is far more important in the short term. Perhaps if we get a Conservative majority in 2015, we can again look more critically about our membership to Europe. Right now, however, we should be concentrating on the immediate issue of our debt crisis.

Well if this thread is mainly about referendums, take a look at what happened when both the Lisbon treaty and the Nice treaty were put to a referendum in Ireland. They were both rejected! Yet they have both been made into EU law due to subsequent referendums on the same treaties, which I am pretty sure is Illegal in Ireland to hold the same referendum twice, they got around it through pathetic guarantees which mean nothing. That is not my point though.
My point is that if the UK was actually given the opportunity to vote on EU membership, who say's they will actually be listened to? The UK gov won't hold a referendum because as KMA has pointed out, they would most likely not get the result the political classes were hoping for. Which would in turn force them to hold a second referendum to get the right result and considering the deficit problems at the moment that is an expense they could do without. The main problem isn't the EU, its politicians in general!
(Don't get me wrong the EU is still a problem, its dangerous to have that high a concentration of politicians in one place )

It's the age-old story, its good PR to appeal to the national sentiment and promise it, but once you get the job you see it's not a practical thing to do by any means.

You know, at this stage I'd like it to happen personally.

It'd free up the continent to integrate more fully into a more cohesive economic/political unit for the 21.st century.

Plus, I'd just love to see the brits squirm and moan as the common market disappears and the economy/budget takes a hit because 8 of their top 10 trading partners slapped them with import and export taxes, I really would.

Maybe when you realise you don't have a global empire anymore and that 60ish mil of you can't really run a succesful autarky this day and age you can try to rebuild the commonwealth into something more than a book club, or something along those lines.

Brdavs wrote:It's the age-old story, its good PR to appeal to the national sentiment and promise it, but once you get the job you see it's not a practical thing to do by any means.

You know, at this stage I'd like it to happen personally.

It'd free up the continent to integrate more fully into a more cohesive economic/political unit for the 21.st century.

I agree we should have a referendum but for the opposite reasons.

Brdavs wrote:
Plus, I'd just love to see the brits squirm and moan as the common market disappears and the economy/budget takes a hit because 8 of their top 10 trading partners slapped them with import and export taxes, I really would.

Remember us Brits ( not me personally as I hadn't even been born a the time ) voted YES in the 70s referendum for a common market, the EEC was and still is a good thing.

What us 'Brits' dont want is to become a state in a Federal Europe, this scenario makes us a minority with very little influence over how we are governed and having our economy dragged down by subsidising all the poorer countries that have been allowed to join.

Pro-Europe people are always saying we will lose trade with European countries if we pull out of the EU, thats just BS scaremongering because we can be in the common market without being in the EU. Trade with the UK is just as important to the European countries as it is to us and they dont want to lose it either.

Brdavs wrote:Maybe when you realise you don't have a global empire anymore and that 60ish mil of you can't really run a succesful autarky this day and age you can try to rebuild the commonwealth into something more than a book club, or something along those lines.

Aukarky ? The UK hasn't been self sufficient since the invention of the boat lol Again more Pro-Europe scaremongering saying we are turning inward or becoming isolationist. BS, we can still have agreements with other nations, trade deals, defence pacts, shared intel on crime, fishing rights/quota's etc WITHOUT being governed by the EU.

The Commonwealth is important to us Brits, not so much for trade as it's so spread out, but more for shared ideals and mutual trust. Most EU countries dont understand this because when they lost their empires ( and YES all the older nations had a go at Empire building not just us Brits ), in most cases they lost their 'colonies' on far worst terms than us. And EU countries only stick together when they want something, they dont like or trust each other lol

Removed

Kit-Fox wrote:Well I tell you what KMA< you go & use the Magna Carta & the Bill of Rights etc to avoid paying your TV licence fee (if you have a TV) and your car tax & insurance etc etc etc

And use them to ignore statue laws etc

And I'll come & visit you in prison & let you know how how the GIDT section is doing

Sorry i haven't responded sooner. as i've said, i've got allot on my plate at the moment...


Now i FINALLY get where you are coming from ( ). you're right, i wouldn't be able to go into even the highest courts of the land in the UK mainland and argue "but it's against our laws to do this" without risking HEAVY fines and prison time. but my point is that the justice system and our whole system of Govt has detached itself from the law of the land (which as you well know, is known as "common law"), does that make the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights any less valid?

If our Govt has abandoned the rightful law of the land then it is us-the people who should throw of this Govt and all of parliament, the peers, the lords and the whole monarchy (or at the very least, hold them to account and tell them we want our rightful laws back) and elect a new mob in its place because they are acting illegally.


I also understand that unlike the US constitution, ours is more fluid and evolving, but even then our laws must be based on common law or we are obligated to throw down any new law which is unjust.

Mordack wrote:The Conservative Party did promise a referendum on EU membership in the event that we were elected to government, but unfortunately we weren't. We are merely the majority party in a two party coalition. Both sides have had to make compromises, and sacrifice certain parts of their manifesto, and this was one of ours. Our relationship with Europe is undoubtedly a contentious issue, but both coalition partners agree that getting the deficit under control and the economy back on track is far more important in the short term. Perhaps if we get a Conservative majority in 2015, we can again look more critically about our membership to Europe. Right now, however, we should be concentrating on the immediate issue of our debt crisis.

Firstly, our economy and deficit will NEVER be "under control" UNTIL we regain control of our money from the BoE. that is basic and undeniable fact.

Secondly, if the conservatives want an outright victory next election, they would do well to stick to their promises...wouldn't you agree?

Brdavs wrote:Plus, I'd just love to see the brits squirm and moan as the common market disappears and the economy/budget takes a hit because 8 of their top 10 trading partners slapped them with import and export taxes, I really would.

So, what you are saying is that country's who wish to trade with us would rather cut off their nose to spite their face? That makes sense!

EVERY country on the planet likes nothing better than trade, having simple trading agreements are FAAAAAR more preferable to the true free-market than all these suffocating agreements/treaties and unions we have now.

When you have true free-market, you have competition, prosperity and ingenuity, if you go with even more EU intergeneration-just as EU supporters and EU bureaucrats are calling for now-you will get outright communism, even more corruption and economic destruction.

As John D. Rockefeller said, "Competition is a sin". It's a sin for them but for us it is the most essential part of any country/business to have a successful and truly free-market.

You are also under the mistaken belief that European country's need a union more than they actually do. look at Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain Germany and all the other Euro country's for proof of this.
Especially Germany, Greece and Ireland.

Legendary Apophis wrote:

Actually Jim, if you look past the first part (which was pure sarcasm, in case you missed that) of KF's last post and read all of it, he is 100% correct, so don't roll your eyes

[KMA]Avenger wrote:

Mordack wrote:The Conservative Party did promise a referendum on EU membership in the event that we were elected to government, but unfortunately we weren't. We are merely the majority party in a two party coalition. Both sides have had to make compromises, and sacrifice certain parts of their manifesto, and this was one of ours. Our relationship with Europe is undoubtedly a contentious issue, but both coalition partners agree that getting the deficit under control and the economy back on track is far more important in the short term. Perhaps if we get a Conservative majority in 2015, we can again look more critically about our membership to Europe. Right now, however, we should be concentrating on the immediate issue of our debt crisis.

Firstly, our economy and deficit will NEVER be "under control" UNTIL we regain control of our money from the BoE. that is basic and undeniable fact.

Secondly, if the conservatives want an outright victory next election, they would do well to stick to their promises...wouldn't you agree?

In order to implement a party manifesto in its entirety your party needs to have a majority. We don't, unfortunately. We're in a coalition. Our partner in that Coalition is the most Pro-European of all the major UK political parties; and they have a habit of getting very jittery whenever we mention the elephant in the room.

Hypothetically, it might be possible to get Anti-EU legislation through by enlisting the help of the Eurosceptic wing of the Labour party. That's very hypothetical, though, and even if we could it might potentially fracture the coalition. Realistically, the only hope of serious change on Europe is a Conservative majority in 2015.

I sometimes get ahead of myself, point taken

A coalition with UKIP would be better

[KMA]Avenger wrote:I sometimes get ahead of myself, point taken

A coalition with UKIP would be better

No problems.

UKIP, hmm. I have a lot of time for Nigel Farage. Wonderful performer, wasted in Brussels. Realistically, though, they aren't a force to be reckoned with in Westminster. No MPs. All they really do is steal votes from the Tories. Some have even gone so far as to blame the 'hung parliament' on them.

If Labour wanted to be very clever, they'd start trying to seduce the Eurosceptic Tories. Single issue Euro obsessives like Bill Cash and his ilk would relish the prospect of sticking two fingers up to bailouts. Such a move would have the potential to drastically destabilize our beloved coalition. It might cause problems within Labour, too, but having said that they have another four years in opposition so who cares? Plenty of time to rally around the red flag. It'd be an interesting turn of events, and the best/only hope the UK has of redressing its relationship with the EU.

Removed

My bad, i didn't check the time of the edits


@Mordack, I wouldn't trust any of the 3 main parties to follow through on a pledge for a referendum. they would have to do it before i believe them.

MEZZANINE wrote:Remember us Brits ( not me personally as I hadn't even been born a the time ) voted YES in the 70s referendum for a common market, the EEC was and still is a good thing.

What us 'Brits' dont want is to become a state in a Federal Europe, this scenario makes us a minority with very little influence over how we are governed and having our economy dragged down by subsidising all the poorer countries that have been allowed to join.

Pro-Europe people are always saying we will lose trade with European countries if we pull out of the EU, thats just BS scaremongering because we can be in the common market without being in the EU. Trade with the UK is just as important to the European countries as it is to us and they dont want to lose it either.

The point is the common market is a tool of integration and the product of integration.

By its nature the common economic space can only exist while certain rules and standards are common and those can only set by a common body or a contract - hello, thats what the EU is. A contractual relationship.

You cant have the cake and eat it to, to have all the soveirgn powers to follow all your intrests 100% of the time and maintain an open free market with fair competition.
If any one country decides not to follow the rules why on earth would the other countries allow them to participate in the common market when not following the rules gives you an edge? They wouldn't.

If one could sit on two chairs like that, the whole planet would do it. Isn't that obvious?

One has to choose, to abide by a lot of rules and gain a market half a billion strong on equal terms or to be ones own complete master and deal with the fact you're disadvantaged in said market. Ofc. trade would remain but the fact is the name of the game is competition. And having no inport-export dues makes EU companies a lot more competative inside the common market when compared to those outsie EU.

Is it a symbiosis and to mutual benefit? Absolutely. Thats what I said. UK benefits from the EU and the EU definatly benefits from the UK being a part of it. But somehow the 60mil would fare a bit worse than the 440mil that stay behind.




P.S. Besides, you're gonna need the European Court of Human Rights to get your web pr0n back from the Christian Mothers' Union (an roganization Kit-Fox is prolly a proud member of).

I just find it humorous. Out of all the goverments in the EU, save Italy, I as a private citizen would prolly want the UK governemt to have the least power possible if I were a UK citizen - cos of the whole 1984 thing they have going on lol. I'd much rather UK continued on its solo path than to have the entire continent become more like the UK in that aspect.

Removed

Kit-Fox wrote:A - Careful what you wirte, making definate statements about someone could be considered slander and get you and this forum into trouble

It wouldn't be first time this happens in this section, whether it's between forum members, or against a politician or whatever...not saying nothing will ever happen, but I'm just pointing out it's far from being a first.

C - Again we'd just go back to the commonwealth who would love to stick the knife into the EU for those nasty lil treaty agreements limiting UK trade with commonwealth members.

However I'm sure that for example Germany, the second biggest exporter in the world, would modify its policy regarding the UK. I don't think any other country can provide cars like Germany does. I'm just giving the most obvious example, but of course it wouldn't just be that.

D - EU without the UK would fail rapidly, you underestimate just how much money we put into the EU through various means, How much political clout we bring to the EU & How much finacial trade you would lose.

That's exactly why EU wouldn't be happy and I don't know if Commonwealth could cover the loss of European market as it currently is (return of taxes as a revenge act), for the UK. You just gave a good reason why the EU would change its trading policy with the UK if it was to leave the EU and damage it as you say. EU would be pretty stupid not to do so if UK was to leave it due to their own interests and screw EU at same time.