No EU referendum for the brits!

[[KMA]Avenger]

Each side of the debate can be classed as a "mob", what is a mob at the end of the day?!

The good thing about those films is it tells the truth from the UK's POV, that we have been lied to and is an organisation that is doing more harm than good for us Brits.

Jim, if you think it is such a wonderful institution and is working wonders for you and others who think like you...GOOD! i'm glad for you (no sarcasm intended), i REALLY am happy for you...BUT this institution has been rammed down the throats of the British people (including Ireland) and it has done NOTHING for us, worse than doing nothing, it has destroyed many of our businesses and taken many-if not all-of our rights to self government and is costing us an absolute fortune in a time when no nation can afford to throw money away.

As i said, i am happy that you think it is so wonderful, but to many wars have been fought throughout history to get us to this point in time where we have freedom and the right to CHOOSE what WE want, not to be told by unelected, unaccountable eurocrats and bureaucrats how we can govern ourselves and how we can live and by what rules we live...if you are pro-choice and pro-democracy then by that very definition you MUST be anti-EU, you cannot have it both ways. if you are pro-EU then you are forcing on me your way of life and that makes us enemies!


What you also fail to see is just how unpopular the EU is right across Europe, you are in the minority not the majority.

You wouldn't know tiranny if it bit you in the tooshie because you're so fixated to look for it abroad that you don't even notice that it's the guys that are pointing fingers at the "external threats to your sovereignty" that are the ones primarily eroding your liberties. But no, somehow its the common accounting and industrial standards ECHR that are choking away the freedom.

That right there tells me everything i need to know about just how blind you really are!


Tell you what mate, take your EU and choke on it, but don't force it down my throat...that's all we Brits ask.

Also, we are NOT living in the past, and this has NOTHING to do with NWO or one world Govt. all i want is to be governed by those I have elected....is that to much to ask?

By your standards, i have no right to self government and should be stripped of all say...what do you call that, seriously, what is that?

[Juliette]

EU popularity is at a low in its history. With the Euro-bumbling, it's no wonder either.

They replaced the Slovenian Gov't to get a 'yes' vote to that ridiculous Keynesian method of theirs.


Get out and stay out.. if you can.

[Legendary Apophis]

As i said, i am happy that you think it is so wonderful, but to many wars have been fought throughout history to get us to this point in time where we have freedom and the right to CHOOSE what WE want, not to be told by unelected, unaccountable eurocrats and bureaucrats how we can govern ourselves and how we can live and by what rules we live...if you are pro-choice and pro-democracy then by that very definition you MUST be anti-EU, you cannot have it both ways. if you are pro-EU then you are forcing on me your way of life and that makes us enemies!


What you also fail to see is just how unpopular the EU is right across Europe, you are in the minority not the majority.

There's something wrong in your argument there, you say I couldn't be pro democracy because I am pro EU. I suppose parties like Lib Dem and Labour in the UK, and the pro EU in France and other nations happen to be anti democratic parties? It's strange because that isn't the feeling I have had...Anyway, that's one of the reasons why I want that European Parliament gain more power compared to the more "bureaucratic" institutions of the EU. Because there you couldn't say these weren't elected. Heck, I voted myself in 2009 in favor of Nicolas Sarkozy's party (EPP group) for the European elections.

Wishing for the EU to fall is a strong sign of support to be overtaken eventually by the other superpowers or just become a bunch of very minor nations in world (minus Germany). If you think that wouldn't happen, oh well, I'll let you be naive there.

if you are pro-EU then you are forcing on me your way of life and that makes us enemies!

This is obviously the best way to show me that anti EU are not a mob. Lol, your "side" also force on me your way of life, by wishing the EU to collapse.

Also, if I was to be part of the "minority", that means I'm doing it wrong eh? I don't see why I should change my ideas just to be part of the "majority". Oh well...
_________________________

They replaced the Slovenian Gov't to get a 'yes' vote to that ridiculous Keynesian method of theirs.

I'm waiting to see Brdavs opinion about it, him being Slovenian...

Get out and stay out.. if you can.

I have nowhere to go outside of Europe so I'll stay here and hope no economic kamikaze party wins election in France and ruin us all ...only thing I can do is vote against that, though, and obviously move to another country of Eurozone if that was to happen, as being ruined isn't really in my to-do list . Also I hope the Euro won't collapse altogther because then I would just have one solution left...

[[KMA]Avenger]

As i said, i am happy that you think it is so wonderful, but to many wars have been fought throughout history to get us to this point in time where we have freedom and the right to CHOOSE what WE want, not to be told by unelected, unaccountable eurocrats and bureaucrats how we can govern ourselves and how we can live and by what rules we live...if you are pro-choice and pro-democracy then by that very definition you MUST be anti-EU, you cannot have it both ways. if you are pro-EU then you are forcing on me your way of life and that makes us enemies!


What you also fail to see is just how unpopular the EU is right across Europe, you are in the minority not the majority.

There's something wrong in your argument there, you say I couldn't be pro democracy because I am pro EU. I suppose parties like Lib Dem and Labour in the UK, and the pro EU in France and other nations happen to be anti democratic parties? It's strange because that isn't the feeling I have had...Anyway, that's one of the reasons why I want that European Parliament gain more power compared to the more "bureaucratic" institutions of the EU. Because there you couldn't say these weren't elected. Heck, I voted myself in 2009 in favor of Nicolas Sarkozy's party (EPP group) for the European elections.

Wishing for the EU to fall is a strong sign of support to be overtaken eventually by the other superpowers or just become a bunch of very minor nations in world (minus Germany). If you think that wouldn't happen, oh well, I'll let you be naive there.

if you are pro-EU then you are forcing on me your way of life and that makes us enemies!

This is obviously the best way to show me that anti EU are not a mob. Lol, your "side" also force on me your way of life, by wishing the EU to collapse.

Also, if I was to be part of the "minority", that means I'm doing it wrong eh? I don't see why I should change my ideas just to be part of the "majority". Oh well...

Jim, lets get something straight, we Brits are NOT anti-European, what we are against is others trying to force there will on us. you want the EU, i already told you that i am happy for you, can you not show me the same respect and respect my choice and the choice of our nation to say NO, we don't want to be in the EU?

I am not trying to deny you anything while at the same time accuse you of denying my rights to self government, that would hypocrisy of the highest order. so lets agree right here right now that i am glad you have your union...but when YOUR union is forced down MY throat without so much as vote, don't expect me to be happy about it!


Also, no matter what topics i start that are anti-EU, no matter how much i shout that the EU is no good, no matter how much i say the EU will collapse, no matter how much i want the EU to collapse, no matter how much i dream of the day the EU does collapse, nothing i say or do can make the EU collapse...it doesn't need my help to collapse, it is doing a fantastic job of collapsing all by itself...unless you think the EU is so fragile that 1 voice (or a even a few voices) on a forum can cause the EU to collapse?


Ps, i am enjoying this discussion

[Legendary Apophis]

Nope, my point is that "main" countries can make the Euro collapse. UK, Germany, France, and probably Italy, Netherlands, Spain and Austria too. These being the biggest GDP nations/trading nations of Europe.
As I said already, if the majority of UK wants a referendum about it, well, they can have it. However, I'm sure that saying "we want to leave EU" is easier to say than to do (UK politicians of main parties know that well even if they are not very enthusiastic with EU), and it's not even about what I think personally (I am not strong enough to prevent this or that nation to do this or that either lol), because as I said, the most unhappy nation would be the Germans, who want Euro to be a strong currency for obvious currency-history they have. That's why UK leaving EU, even though it's not part of Eurozone, would have effects on Euro, and that Germans don't want it. When I say Germans, I mean CSU-CDU and social democrats of course.

[[KMA]Avenger]

That shows how little you know and how little you are informed, the Germans are over the moon that the Euro is weak right now (but not to weak), because they are the biggest exporters within the Eurozone so it benefits there exports the Euro stay weak.
What the Germans are not over the moon about is bailing out the rest of the Eurozone.


So, basically what you are saying is that we Brits can have our referendum so long as we are not allowed to leave because your union will fall apart?

You are joking right?



If you are serious then your argument in favour of the EU (just like the EU is going to do in the not so distant future) has just collapsed and you have helped prove my point that if something cannot stand on it's own then it does not deserve to stand at all!

[MEZZANINE]

@ Brdavs,

So your argument seems to be that only people who have studied the EU on degree courses could possible understand and the pro-EU lobby wont support referendums or public debates or democracy because the people are too stupid to understand or allowed to make the decisions for themselves.

@ LA,

You said the BNP were leading the UK anti-EU lobby, and they are well know to be raciest hence why I mentioned racism. Fact is the BNP are a tiny minority party who have no power, and will never have any power in the UK. All polls have shown that the vast majority of the UK is anti-EU regardless of which internal UK party they follow or vote for, and that vast majority have nothing to do with the BNP.




The facts havent changed.

1) Free trade - Already had it for decades, all good, and doesnt require the EU integration / centralisation that is now being pushed through against the will of the people.

2) For the UK we have already lost many law making powers to the EU, and if this continues their will be very little point in us having our own government, and even if the EU moves more towards democracy & MEPs get more power than the Euro-Commissioners/bureaucrats, the EU is so vast that UK votes will be worthless being so outnumbered by foreign votes/MEPs. Basically we give away control of our own country.

3) One size fits all never works, just look at the Euro or when they tried to fix EU interest rates, both were good for some countries, and drove others to the point of bankruptcy. Hell look at the USA, some states are wealthy with good quality of life, others have far lower quality of life & life expectancies and still have to be heavily subsidised over a century after federisation. There is no equality, and what has being a superstate got them ? The biggest national debt in the world, the largest prison population ( % per capita ) in the world, and hatred around the world for throwing their weight around, You want that for Europe ???

[Legendary Apophis]

That shows how little you know and how little you are informed, the Germans are over the moon that the Euro is weak right now (but not to weak), because they are the biggest exporters within the Eurozone so it benefits there exports the Euro stay weak.
What the Germans are not over the moon about is bailing out the rest of the Eurozone.

Germans were already the biggest exporters of Europe before entering the Eurozone, and they have the particularity to export regardless of their prices and currency. If I knew so little, I wouldn't know there is competitiveness based on price, and competitiveness not based on prices (Germany zone). Your argument would be valid for countries who don't have the chance to have this competitiveness. The ones in favor of strong Euro vs the ones in favor of not so strong Euro.

So, basically what you are saying is that we Brits can have our referendum so long as we are not allowed to leave because your union will fall apart?

You are joking right?



If you are serious then your argument in favour of the EU has (just like the EU is going to do in the not so distant future) has just collapsed and you have helped prove my point that if something cannot stand on it's own then it does not deserve to stand at all!

You seem to give little me alot of credit. It's not even about what I personally think. Seriously, read what I said, it will be politicians vs politicians, within UK itself (those in favor of EU, those not so happy with EU, and finally those strongly against EU), and from politicians of continent. Just like I, personally, couldn't have influenced the yes/no with EU nations to the "let's follow the USA to go after Saddam".

@ LA,

You said the BNP were leading the UK anti-EU lobby, and they are well know to be raciest hence why I mentioned racism. Fact is the BNP are a tiny minority party who have no power, and will never have any power in the UK. All polls have shown that the vast majority of the UK is anti-EU regardless of which internal UK party they follow or vote for, and that vast majority have nothing to do with the BNP.

Why don't they vote for the UKIP if they are so much anti-EU? I mean, why would a person who dislikes EU vote for a party in favor of it...that just seems wrong to me.

3) One size fits all never works, just look at the Euro or when they tried to fix EU interest rates, both were good for some countries, and drove others to the point of bankruptcy. Hell look at the USA, some states are wealthy with good quality of life, others have far lower quality of life & life expectancies and still have to be heavily subsidised over a century after federisation. There is no equality, and what has being a superstate got them ? The biggest national debt in the world, the largest prison population ( % per capita ) in the world, and hatred around the world for throwing their weight around, You want that for Europe ???

By that reasoning that superstate is bad, USA wouldn't have been the superpower they were during the XXth century, and Europe would be a minor continent compared to supersized nations since the end of WW2. The days of strong independent and hostile-to-each others European nations dominating most of the world are over. Now the keys to have influence changed, with rising from nations outside of Western world. Get rid of EU and most of European nations will not be as "important" anymore, same could be said if United States were to collapse into a bunch of inde states.

Europe is already rather within the borders of "global USA culture" whether it's by movies, music, food...if there was no EU, I'm likely sure it would be much more than cultural influence coming from USA!



____
Out of topic comment
Out Of Character:
What I am 100% sure about, though, is that if my nation left the Eurozone, the "negative" effects would be immediate. Euro might have done this or that after years and years, Euro isn't perfect after all, but withdrawal from Eurozone would have very quick negative effects. It wouldn't take years to have issues, it would take few months to destroy literally the economy. Probably not the multinational/global firms, but small firms and average people like me would be ruined (savings would lose a great % of their value). Just so people don't think it's only ideological support to Euro I have...but also realistic knowledge about what would happen.

[MEZZANINE]

@ LA,

You said the BNP were leading the UK anti-EU lobby, and they are well know to be raciest hence why I mentioned racism. Fact is the BNP are a tiny minority party who have no power, and will never have any power in the UK. All polls have shown that the vast majority of the UK is anti-EU regardless of which internal UK party they follow or vote for, and that vast majority have nothing to do with the BNP.

Why don't they vote for the UKIP if they are so much anti-EU? I mean, why would a person who dislikes EU vote for a party in favor of it...that just seems wrong to me.

Because the Conservatives also promised a EU referendum ( As did Labour before them ), and Conservative policies on everything else were more believable & practical than other UKIP policies. If people had known in the last election that Conservatives were going to go into coalition with a Pro-EU party ( Liberals ) and break their referendum promise then a lot more people would have voted UKIP.

The only reason we dont have a EU referendum is a policy trade off between Conservatives and Liberals, and the only reason the Liberals ( pro-EU ) dont want a referendum is because like everyone in the UK, they know that any referendum held will say NO to being in the EU.

UK public opinion on the EU is not in question here, you look at any poll by any organisation they all say the UK would vote NO.









As for you question on the 'Superstate', yes is it a bad thing IMO. One rule will never be good for everyone, it will always favour one group over another, some groups will get even amounts of good and bad, some will overall be better off, and some will overall be worse off. All indication from the EU show that the UK is already and would get even more worse off through being part of the EU.

[[KMA]Avenger]

That shows how little you know and how little you are informed, the Germans are over the moon that the Euro is weak right now (but not to weak), because they are the biggest exporters within the Eurozone so it benefits there exports the Euro stay weak.
What the Germans are not over the moon about is bailing out the rest of the Eurozone.

Germans were already the biggest exporters of Europe before entering the Eurozone, and they have the particularity to export regardless of their prices and currency. If I knew so little, I wouldn't know there is competitiveness based on price, and competitiveness not based on prices (Germany zone). Your argument would be valid for countries who don't have the chance to have this competitiveness. The ones in favor of strong Euro vs the ones in favor of not so strong Euro.

So, basically what you are saying is that we Brits can have our referendum so long as we are not allowed to leave because your union will fall apart?

You are joking right?



If you are serious then your argument in favour of the EU has (just like the EU is going to do in the not so distant future) has just collapsed and you have helped prove my point that if something cannot stand on it's own then it does not deserve to stand at all!

You seem to give little me alot of credit. It's not even about what I personally think. Seriously, read what I said, it will be politicians vs politicians, within UK itself (those in favor of EU, those not so happy with EU, and finally those strongly against EU), and from politicians of continent. Just like I, personally, couldn't have influenced the yes/no with EU nations to the "let's follow the USA to go after Saddam".

Jim, would you agree that what the politicians think (regardless of party, personal views and what nation these politicians are in) does not matter, what matters is what the people want and what the people vote for...would you agree with that?

____
Out of topic comment
Out Of Character:
What I am 100% sure about, though, is that if my nation left the Eurozone, the "negative" effects would be immediate. Euro might have done this or that after years and years, Euro isn't perfect after all, but withdrawal from Eurozone would have very quick negative effects. It wouldn't take years to have issues, it would take few months to destroy literally the economy. Probably not the multinational/global firms, but small firms and average people like me would be ruined (savings would lose a great % of their value). Just so people don't think it's only ideological support to Euro I have...but also realistic knowledge about what would happen.

This is EXACTLY on topic, the collapse of the EU will hurt all of us and our nations, please don't think i don't know or understand what i am calling for...but in the long run EVERY nation within the the EU will do MUCH better if they as well as remove the EU they also remove the central privately controlled banks at the heart of our nations and start issuing sound money again, which will have no interest attached.

Remember also that money has absolutely ZERO value, the only things that have value in this world are your labour and the fruits of your labour, money is simply an IOU-a way to keep track of what we owe each other and allows the free flow of commerce between us.

That is the greatest secret of all, the fact that money (gold, silver, precious metals, gems, anything you can class as "money"), all forms of money has ZERO value...that's what banksters keep secret from us, the fact that money itself is worthless....try eating some paper, or keeping yourself warm with some gold and see how far you get!

[Mordack]

The claim that the BNP are the major Anti-EU voice within British politics is completely untrue. The BNP are a spent force. They received next to no publicity nowadays, unless it's regarding their significant financial difficulties. They were wiped out in the last local elections. They are irrelevant. What they say no longer matters, regardless of whether it's about Europe, Immigration or what Kate Middelton is wearing. That might change, but for the most part they're out of the picture.

There are two main Eurosceptic Parties in the UK.

(a) UKIP, or the United Kingdom Independence Party. Advocate a complete withdrawal. I find them ironic, though. They are an Anti-EU party, yet their greatest success is in EU elections. The only way any British political party could implement a UK referendum, or withdrawal, is through achieving a majority in the UK parliament. UKIP won't do that anytime soon. They're a protest party. You vote for them come Eurotime because you want to stick two fingers up. Fair enough, but not a recipe for change. Unless you're willing to transfer those commitments to the General, then they'll never have much hope.

(b) The Tories. The Conservatives are a party which has made destroying itself over Europe into something of a pastime. Europe related squabbling was one of the defining features which brought Maggie’s reign to a premature close, and the party in-fighting which culminated in the Maastricht Rebellion is commonly seen as one of the factors which made the party unelectable and led the Blairite revolution to sweep to power in 1997. Over a decade later, and not much has changed. Bill Cash, the same man who led the Maastricht Rebels all those years ago, recently published an article slating the government’s European policy on ConservativeHome; the site purported to represent Tory grassroots opinion. The Tories aren't united against the EU, but they're certainly the most Anti-EU party which is in a position to change anything.

Attempting to link EU opposition with racism is just sad, and desperate.

[Legendary Apophis]

The claim that the BNP are the major Anti-EU voice within British politics is completely untrue. The BNP are a spent force. They received next to no publicity nowadays, unless it's regarding their significant financial difficulties. They were wiped out in the last local elections. They are irrelevant. What they say no longer matters, regardless of whether it's about Europe, Immigration or what Kate Middelton is wearing. That might change, but for the most part they're out of the picture.

There are two main Eurosceptic Parties in the UK.

(a) UKIP, or the United Kingdom Independence Party. Advocate a complete withdrawal. I find them ironic, though. They are an Anti-EU party, yet their greatest success is in EU elections. The only way any British political party could implement a UK referendum, or withdrawal, is through achieving a majority in the UK parliament. UKIP won't do that anytime soon. They're a protest party. You vote for them come Eurotime because you want to stick two fingers up. Fair enough, but not a recipe for change. Unless you're willing to transfer those commitments to the General, then they'll never have much hope.

(b) The Tories. The Conservatives are a party which has made destroying itself over Europe into something of a pastime. Europe related squabbling was one of the defining features which brought Maggie’s reign to a premature close, and the party in-fighting which culminated in the Maastricht Rebellion is commonly seen as one of the factors which made the party unelectable and led the Blairite revolution to sweep to power in 1997. Over a decade later, and not much has changed. Bill Cash, the same man who led the Maastricht Rebels all those years ago, recently published an article slating the government’s European policy on ConservativeHome; the site purported to represent Tory grassroots opinion. The Tories aren't united against the EU, but they're certainly the most Anti-EU party which is in a position to change anything.

Attempting to link EU opposition with racism is just sad, and desperate.

Your country is lucky if the most yapping ones (BNP) are turned into a minority. My guess was based on the fact the 2009 EU-wide elections did show, globally speaking, a rise of right wing parties (good) but also, of far right wing parties (not good imo), I know BNP will never equal Labor/Tories results on any elections though. I knew two parties were the spokesparties of euro-skepticism, UKIP & BNP. Tories were not enthusiastic with EU and still aren't, though I didn't think they were in favor of leaving EU. I just thought they were in favor of increasing UK's "independence" with trying to negotiate more sovereignty of nations, but not leaving EU though (the parties who are in between pro EU and anti EU). Oh well, mind that I'm not from UK and my knowledge might not be totally accurate. Though I'm sure if I asked people of my age in my university if they know about BNP, UKIP, "Tories" a great % wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about.

That shows how little you know and how little you are informed, the Germans are over the moon that the Euro is weak right now (but not to weak), because they are the biggest exporters within the Eurozone so it benefits there exports the Euro stay weak.
What the Germans are not over the moon about is bailing out the rest of the Eurozone.

Germans were already the biggest exporters of Europe before entering the Eurozone, and they have the particularity to export regardless of their prices and currency. If I knew so little, I wouldn't know there is competitiveness based on price, and competitiveness not based on prices (Germany zone). Your argument would be valid for countries who don't have the chance to have this competitiveness. The ones in favor of strong Euro vs the ones in favor of not so strong Euro.

So, basically what you are saying is that we Brits can have our referendum so long as we are not allowed to leave because your union will fall apart?

You are joking right?



If you are serious then your argument in favour of the EU has (just like the EU is going to do in the not so distant future) has just collapsed and you have helped prove my point that if something cannot stand on it's own then it does not deserve to stand at all!

You seem to give little me alot of credit. It's not even about what I personally think. Seriously, read what I said, it will be politicians vs politicians, within UK itself (those in favor of EU, those not so happy with EU, and finally those strongly against EU), and from politicians of continent. Just like I, personally, couldn't have influenced the yes/no with EU nations to the "let's follow the USA to go after Saddam".

Jim, would you agree that what the politicians think (regardless of party, personal views and what nation these politicians are in) does not matter, what matters is what the people want and what the people vote for...would you agree with that?

____
Out of topic comment
Out Of Character:
What I am 100% sure about, though, is that if my nation left the Eurozone, the "negative" effects would be immediate. Euro might have done this or that after years and years, Euro isn't perfect after all, but withdrawal from Eurozone would have very quick negative effects. It wouldn't take years to have issues, it would take few months to destroy literally the economy. Probably not the multinational/global firms, but small firms and average people like me would be ruined (savings would lose a great % of their value). Just so people don't think it's only ideological support to Euro I have...but also realistic knowledge about what would happen.

This is EXACTLY on topic, the collapse of the EU will hurt all of us and our nations, please don't think i don't know or understand what i am calling for...but in the long run EVERY nation within the the EU will do MUCH better if they as well as remove the EU they also remove the central privately controlled banks at the heart of our nations and start issuing sound money again, which will have no interest attached.

Remember also that money has absolutely ZERO value, the only things that have value in this world are your labour and the fruits of your labour, money is simply an IOU-a way to keep track of what we owe each other and allows the free flow of commerce between us.

That is the greatest secret of all, the fact that money (gold, silver, precious metals, gems, anything you can class as "money"), all forms of money has ZERO value...that's what banksters keep secret from us, the fact that money itself is worthless....try eating some paper, or keeping yourself warm with some gold and see how far you get!

You say money is worth nothing, but it's the best way so far to determinate what's something value. Else, imagine if you were to trade goods for goods. Nowadays with industries of different qualities, trading a low cost frying span for let's say two average glasses wouldn't equal to ratio of trading a good quality frying span with glasses. Money doesn't have value in itself, ah, obviously I know that. It represents value. But with the crazy variety of goods we have today, and the many qualities of each. It would be almost impossible to determine properly the value without using money.
About the interest in loans etc, I think we would be going offtopic if it was to head towards that, thus I won't go developing in this particular sub-subject.

[[KMA]Avenger]

You didn't answer the first question...

"Jim, would you agree that what the politicians think (regardless of party, personal views and what nation these politicians are in) does not matter, what matters is what the people want and what the people vote for...would you agree with that?"



As for the Interest put on money, start another thread or resurrect my old banking thread

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[[KMA]Avenger]

That vote NEEDS to be held today, the reason why is because the EU is restructuring and now nations will have to pay their taxes directly to the ECB. the EU has also said that once the restructuring is complete nations will NEVER be able to leave regardless of what the people vote within any of the member states. this affectively destroys all sovereignty and freedom...Jim, be careful what you wish for because you are about to get it!

All i have to say to that is HELL NO!


As for that article, KF, i wouldn't trust our politicians to wipe their backsides properly, never mind to the right thing and give the people what they want-or more accurately, what they are DEMANDING before it's to late