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The Xeno wrote:Orici;
Dismissing the story of the flood through the local-theory provides problems. Creationist arguments span the spectrum, and have answers ranging from clever word plays, to ocean-floor sediment research (iirc). At the end of the day, proving whether or not there was a local flood, or a global miracle doesn't really affect the Christian Religion.

It would be much more proof to show that heaven doesn't exist,
or that souls don't exist. If you do that, faith will be out of the picture.
But until empirical science has disproved the supernatural, something that is inherently impossible, there will always be a place for faith.

I have chosen to try and follow the Teachings and Traditions of the Orthodox Christian Church, as I believe it provides the best definition and compass for ideas such as ‘morality’ and ‘justice’ and ‘heaven’ and ‘virtue’. If you wish to debate those definitions, find a religion.

Debating whether or not a God exists is ultimately futile, as you will never be able to disprove. Whereas for those of us who believe, all the proof we need is the grass; electro-magnetic particles that it may be.

Good job xeno

Basically, I've been trying to say... you brought up the universe expanding, the flood, the ark, and... ah yes, where did Cain get his wife. I have answered all through logic; none needed God (well, the flood did, but we know how that happend) Basically, Perhaps this isn't the place for a debate, but I turned it into one
peace

Actually, I would consider a fairly bad job.
It seems I built a strawman… Orici I misread some of your earlier posts, and thus misconstrued your intent and position.

I wholly agree that the bible is the word of God translated through man: as such there are errors and limitations in the work. My mistake came in assuming that you saw such natural defects as reasons for dismissing Christianity. So looking back… I targeted an atheist, when I should have merely been inquiring into the beliefs of a catholic.

==========

I have answered all through logic; none needed God

Now that would be an interesting book discussion: Perhaps I should dust off my copy of the Summa Theologica?

The Xeno wrote:I wholly agree that the bible is the word of God translated through man: as such there are errors and limitations in the work. My mistake came in assuming that you saw such natural defects as reasons for dismissing Christianity. So looking back… I targeted an atheist, when I should have merely been inquiring into the beliefs of a catholic.

Wooh, hold on mate...

You're saying that God writing a book through man; that he would make a mistake?

Not God making a mistake, but man.

It is a fact that translation is a messy business, and taking a single edition of the Bible as the literal word of God can be a dangerous undertaking. Some groups like to put their own label upon things, others simply make errors:
Be it 'modern' bibles with God as a 'she', or slight wording changes in the psalms.

My point is simply that you shouldn't dismiss a religion because one translation of its Holy Book contains 'thou', 'thine', and 'thy' while another contains 'you', 'yours', and 'your'.
(though it may be grounds for dismissing one translation )

The Xeno wrote:Not God making a mistake, but man.

It is a fact that translation is a messy business, and taking a single edition of the Bible as the literal word of God can be a dangerous undertaking. Some groups like to put their own label upon things, others simply make errors:
Be it 'modern' bibles with God as a 'she', or slight wording changes in the psalms.

My point is simply that you shouldn't dismiss a religion because one translation of its Holy Book contains 'thou', 'thine', and 'thy' while another contains 'you', 'yours', and 'your'.
(though it may be grounds for dismissing one translation )

very true but one thing.

The Bible is directly (divinely) inspired by God, written by man. If you can't trust that God would make sure that his word made it safely (and true) throughout the ages, your faith is worthless.

Afentius wrote:

The Xeno wrote:Not God making a mistake, but man.

It is a fact that translation is a messy business, and taking a single edition of the Bible as the literal word of God can be a dangerous undertaking. Some groups like to put their own label upon things, others simply make errors:
Be it 'modern' bibles with God as a 'she', or slight wording changes in the psalms.

My point is simply that you shouldn't dismiss a religion because one translation of its Holy Book contains 'thou', 'thine', and 'thy' while another contains 'you', 'yours', and 'your'.
(though it may be grounds for dismissing one translation )

very true but one thing.

The Bible is directly (divinely) inspired by God, written by man. If you can't trust that God would make sure that his word made it safely (and true) throughout the ages, your faith is worthless.

god seems to have stopped being "direct" in the middle ages bud so I wouldn't place my faith in his observation of human translation

Orici wrote:

Afentius wrote:

The Xeno wrote:Not God making a mistake, but man.

It is a fact that translation is a messy business, and taking a single edition of the Bible as the literal word of God can be a dangerous undertaking. Some groups like to put their own label upon things, others simply make errors:
Be it 'modern' bibles with God as a 'she', or slight wording changes in the psalms.

My point is simply that you shouldn't dismiss a religion because one translation of its Holy Book contains 'thou', 'thine', and 'thy' while another contains 'you', 'yours', and 'your'.
(though it may be grounds for dismissing one translation )

very true but one thing.

The Bible is directly (divinely) inspired by God, written by man. If you can't trust that God would make sure that his word made it safely (and true) throughout the ages, your faith is worthless.

god seems to have stopped being "direct" in the middle ages bud so I wouldn't place my faith in his observation of human translation

GOD stopped writing because of all the sin in the world... along with other reasons that I would know nothing about.. unlike some, I don't claim to know everything.

i'm not claiming to know everything your being ignorant by putting words in my mouth. And the last time sin "ruled" the world and God stopped talking he sent the "flood" and wiped it out, the second time he sent his son, this is teh third time and sins has been around for over 2000 years festering into a population of over 6 billion. So where pray tell is our divine retribution?

ALSO Islam, Judeaism, and Christianity are all under the same God. SO why would God being infallable allow the flaws that seperate them to occur? Its all from the Bible the old testament that is as each sect finished it off with something new. So if the Bible is God's direct words and actions then why is there confusion about it? Explain that. I think that solidifies my point does it not?

The Bible is directly (divinely) inspired by God, written by man. If you can't trust that God would make sure that his word made it safely (and true) throughout the ages, your faith is worthless.

I agree fundamentally... "The Truth is out there"
However, that does not mean the truth can't be obscured, or that people will not turn a blind eye, we do have free will. So, when you say 'His Word', I'd like to be sure you are not talking about just the Bible, but the Traditions that go along with it.

I believe the Bible contains the words of Jesus/God. I know that it is the product of the early church. I believe that it was not meant as a single entity, but a complement to the living Christian Tradition that had existed for the former fifty odd years. That Tradition did not disappear upon the Bible's inception, but continues to provide a lens through which to apply the Word to the world.

god seems to have stopped being "direct" in the middle ages bud so I wouldn't place my faith in his observation of human translation

Depends on your definition of direct. Certainly I don't believe He's set up a printing press... but... the middle ages have hardly been a stopping point for those considered Saints and others who seemed to have been touched by God.

Semper,
What does a Deity's gender have to do with the validity of its existence? It may impact the converts, but if there is a God, whether or not it is male, female, neuter, or Michael Jackson will make no difference to it's reality.

That issue only comes up when comparing religions, and is based on the assumption that there is a God. If you are atheist, I don't see how you can fall back on it, and if you are of a religion; there are plenty of exhaustive texts dealing with women and their inclusion/role in the traditional and 'modern' Christian church/community.

lol...no..it has alot to do with it..and then it has more relevance then when being used to compare religeons as christians and catholics imply god as being male, MASONS imply god as being a woman. it is a simple point..how can god be perfectly...good...perfectly everywhere and ultimately powerful...the bible..the entire christian, catholic and mason belief implies that god IS PERFECT. and such a fact CANNOT be true if GOD has a gender...a sign of imperfection, its already a huge contradiction in the very foundation of the entire religeons base, its deity and the beleif it holds of that deity! Im saying this an an example..you cannot give perfection an imperfect quality..otherwise it is not perfect..so...that is why i say the bible is nonesense..because it stands to be a testament to gods existence..a book of codes, laws, lessons..tales 'guided' if u will by the hand of god. HOLD THE PHONE! NO!!!! god could not of guided it..as that would imply god did something on our plane of existence..BIG BOO BOO..as that would make it imperfect and NOT a god. So NO! the bible is and can be NOTHING guided by god..anything in it..and i mean anything..referring to god doing something..elijah..the giving of the ten commandments...if god really does exist..it could of done none of it..so the bible is lying. There is but ONE counter to this argument...and ill see if u can get it, but to do so..u do indeed have to question the valadility of the bible and hence destroy your own argument because the bible is naughty and does not tell the the complete truth.

On the other hand. There is a side, which im more inclined to follow claiming that god is superhuman, that it is not perfect. ahhh..now we have soemthing sexual. soemthing belivable, but! This cannot be done under the guise of the bible. Hence, the only way to accept God properly is to either beleive a ultimate lie, that comes from the bible, or..as i originally said, make your relationship (well you belief) personal based on what you decided, not what a flawed book does.

and then i would very much agree with Orici! why would a infallable being allow such..dividedes? free will? lol...ill throw determanism in your face if u want to use that. and where is this great retrabution to wipe away the sins..because..i say this now..in my opinion there have never been more sins in the world then there are at this time.

Orici wrote:i'm not claiming to know everything your being ignorant by putting words in my mouth. And the last time sin "ruled" the world and God stopped talking he sent the "flood" and wiped it out, the second time he sent his son, this is teh third time and sins has been around for over 2000 years festering into a population of over 6 billion. So where pray tell is our divine retribution?

And you're being ignorant in assuming that I "know" why God hasn't come back, but I hope its soon

Orici wrote:ALSO Islam, Judeaism, and Christianity are all under the same God. SO why would God being infallable allow the flaws that seperate them to occur? Its all from the Bible the old testament that is as each sect finished it off with something new. So if the Bible is God's direct words and actions then why is there confusion about it? Explain that. I think that solidifies my point does it not?

This solidifies that you're so arrogent that you "know it all", so to speak, that you miss it completely, again. Islam believes killing Christians is the way to go. (Same God? In your dreams..) Judeaism? They might believe in the same God, but they're not "saved". They still follow the old testement way of doing things. Christianity? I have yet to find something wrong with.

and such a fact CANNOT be true if GOD has a gender...a sign of imperfection

How so?
A things perfection is not based on its gender.
Especially when that 'gender' is a loose concept applied to an omniscient being.

There is but ONE counter to this argument...and ill see if u can get it, but to do so..u do indeed have to question the valadility of the bible and hence destroy your own argument because the bible is naughty and does not tell the the complete truth.

Please, Please, format your paragraphs. I am always open to learning about/considering new theological ideas, but a lack of proper formatting makes that a very difficult expedition....

And again, I do not see your point.
If God exists, then the gender does not affect his/her/it's reality.
It may be a reason to investigate one religion over another, but is hardly an argument against God.

in my opinion there have never been more sins in the world then there are at this time.

Human nature hasn't changed... there are more of us, it is only reasonable to assume that there would be more sin.

right..ok...(i cant actually believe i am having to explain this one..)...

gender = imperfection. Hw is this a argument against gods existence? No gender is pefect. Women need men to reproduce..and neither gender is more perfect then the other, they are both imperfect and need the other. Can u have perfection without existence? no...and as both genders need the other for continued existence they need each other. A things perfection is not based on its gender. YES! It cannot have a gender if it is pefect! a loose concept applied to a omniscient being? awwww...lol.. it is not a loose concept at all, every time people in the catholic, or christian religeon mention god they make sure it is said that it is infact a HE. It also mentions that god is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolant..but is sumhow perfect..i shal repeat myself..god must also perfectly be evil..as evil is considered a thing, rather then simply the lack of something. and i point out. My argument is not against GOD its against the bible..and its portrait of god. I claim..that the bible is wrong, the original reason for this debate, and i am using its portrayal of god to destroy it, as god is..the bible effectively.

Humanity has changed tons! our very nature has changed...we have more sociopaths now adays (psychopaths...aka..emotionless people, people with little.no social ties..pyromaniacs.etc etc...) we have more alcohol, and many other perfetic motions of society that was never present in some past cultures on such a domination scale..trust and 'unjustified' murder (lets no go into the debate of people dying in ancient warfare as unjustified or justified murder) has sky rocketed..not to mention attacking countried for oil greed...*cough* george *cough* bush*. If you can say humanity has not changed, then you are being ignorant sir, or you are blind because its there, the changes are on tv on the hour every day, not nessesarily the actions themselves..but the way we perceive and treat them, and their scale and route of course.

gender = imperfection. Hw is this a argument against gods existence? No gender is pefect. Women need men to reproduce..and neither gender is more perfect then the other, they are both imperfect and need the other.

.... I'm afraid I still don't see it.
If we have a girl named Maria, is she less of 'Maria' because she's a girl?
Or take yourself, are you less of a complete you because you are of the male/female gender?
Is an asexual microbe more perfect than a human because it is genderless?

it is not a loose concept at all, every time people in the catholic, or christian religeon mention god they make sure it is said that it is infact a HE.

Does that somehow mean he shares the same faults of mortal men?

If you can say humanity has not changed, then you are being ignorant sir, or you are blind because its there, the changes are on tv on the hour every day, not nessesarily the actions themselves..but the way we perceive and treat them, and their scale and route of course.

That all falls under culture (and even then, nothing really new). The Nature of humanity has not changed.
We still deal with the basic flaws of our nature; greed, sloth, lust, envy etc. as we did thousands of years ago.

Afentius wrote:

Orici wrote:i'm not claiming to know everything your being ignorant by putting words in my mouth. And the last time sin "ruled" the world and God stopped talking he sent the "flood" and wiped it out, the second time he sent his son, this is teh third time and sins has been around for over 2000 years festering into a population of over 6 billion. So where pray tell is our divine retribution?

And you're being ignorant in assuming that I "know" why God hasn't come back, but I hope its soon

Orici wrote:ALSO Islam, Judeaism, and Christianity are all under the same God. SO why would God being infallable allow the flaws that seperate them to occur? Its all from the Bible the old testament that is as each sect finished it off with something new. So if the Bible is God's direct words and actions then why is there confusion about it? Explain that. I think that solidifies my point does it not?

This solidifies that you're so arrogent that you "know it all", so to speak, that you miss it completely, again. Islam believes killing Christians is the way to go. (Same God? In your dreams..) Judeaism? They might believe in the same God, but they're not "saved". They still follow the old testement way of doing things. Christianity? I have yet to find something wrong with.

i dont hope he comes back, at least not until i'm safe and sound burning in hell.

god if there is one in my opinion would have to be a race, were probably some big science experiment by a race much more powerful then us.

if god is perfect why is he so biased? if he comes back mass genocide to the umpteenth level comes about, racial genocide the world over, hell if he comes back less then 1 billion people will be left (saying if the catholics are right) even less if any of the others are. you really want that? if so you have my deserved contempt.

Anything wrong with Christianity having something now wrong with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_years_war

the irish fights between themselves where catholic school kids couldn't walk home without armed escorts.

any organized religon has bebased its purpose and is wrong, if god is real then he as an omnipotent being then he apreciates all form of life.



XENO!

good points


however human nature has changed, we have a sense of rights if human nature hadn't i would as a thing of instinct if, you had a hot girlfriend Xeno, i would kill you and take her. Humans are now governed by thought and not by emotions, which differences us from common animals.