THIS:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=20574174
is sparta.
period.
this is sparta?
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vinny d
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Re: this is sparta?
I hate to break this to you but the guy claiming to know oh so much is oh so wrong.
1) Fiction: Spartans numbered 300 troops.
Fact: As you can see, even the title of movie is historical false. During Battle of Thermopylae, there were about 8000 Greeks, not 300. According to historian Diodorus Siculus, here is the list of Greek forces:
2200 Spartans (1300 hoplites and 900 healots)
3000 other Peloponnesians (including Mantineans, Tegeans, Arcadians, Corinthians, Phlians and Mycenaeans)
3100 other Greeks (including Thespians, Melians, Thebans, Phocians and Opuntian Locrians)
Estimates for Greek Troop strength at the Battle of Thermopylae was around six to eight thousand. 2200 Spartans is a figure that is flat out wrong. There were 300 Spartans each operating with 3 helots ( state owned slaves) So in reality there were 300 spartans and 900 spartan slaves. So this man is wrong.
2) Fiction: Persians numbered million(s) troops.
Fact: The greatest historian-liar Herodotus gave number of more then 5.2 million Persian troops during battle which is obviously impossible so that number is rejected by all historians today. In comparison, the largest Roman army ever fielded in ancient times was 200 000 at the Battle of Philippi. Modern scholars have proposed different numbers for the invasion force, estimations based on knowledge of the Persian military systems, their logistical capabilities, the Greek countryside, and supplies available along the army's route. According to numeorus historians (like John A. Scott, Robert Cohen, W. W. Tarn, Ernst Obst, Eduard Meyer, De Sanctis, Helmut Berve, Ulrich Wilcken, Jerry Bentley, Herbert Ziegler, Heather Streets, etc.) estimate Persian troops under 100 000, while historian Hans Delbrueck claim that the Persian fighting forces may have been as small as 15,000 to 20,000 soldiers. So, comparing ancient Greek with modern sources shows Greeks exaggerated number of their enemy by - 350 times!
Again this man is wrong. If the battle was against 15,000- 20,000 soldiers the Greek forces would have won. His claims of such a small force of laughable. If he claims there are that little troops he has no idea of military tactics. The way the Greeks were positioned had it so the Persians could only fight a few men wide. Since the Spartans and other Greeks were so heavily armored the Persian forces would not have broke the Greeks. The number of actual troops is debated. Some may claim the ludicrous number of 15-20k, and there is the claim of a million, to a million plus.. In reality it was roughly 100-300k.
"number of more then 5.2 million Persian troops" While Herodotus did exaggerate the numbers he never said Persian troops. He said Persian. Herodotus counted the other non combat units.
"As you can see; passage was 14-meters wide, and Greeks phalanx consisted of 3 or 4 ranks of soldiers, while their spears were max. 2.7 meters long. According that facts, only about 50 soldiers were able to fight on each side!
Can you imagine millions, thousands, or even hundreds of Persian soldiers engaged in fight here?! It's physical impossible!
Ever been to stadiums? You know it needs about 30 minutes to empty all stadium thru 20 exits, now imagine how much time would it need for fully supplied army numbered hundreds of thousands soldiers to pass thru one 14-meters wide passage?! Probably few days! So it's most probably Persians spent more time passing thru Thermopylae then fighting those Greek enemies."
See the Greek forces chose thermopylae for a reason. There were no other ways through. What isn't known to most is that major naval engagement that went on right near the battle of thermopylae. I want to say salmis straits but don't quote me on that one. Themistocles led an athenian fleet against a persian fleet and won. Now I might have lied when I say there was no other way around, there was. It just would have meant marching all the way around a major sea and conquering an untold amounts of nations.
"Persian Immortals were elite Royal Guards, trained from their birth and chosen only from Persian origin. On other side, Sparta was a slave state! Sparta had many slaves, more then 50% of their population were slaves, known as helots. During movie, you can hear words "Free Greeks" dozens times. Ironic, isn't it?"
True about the immortals. Again, He called Sparta a slave state. The soldiers who fought were not slaves. Sparta did own slaves but they were not considered Spartans.
"6) Fiction: "Brave" Leonidas decided to stay and face larger army.
Fact: After Persians encircled the Greeks, Leonidas actually ordered - retreat. It was Thespian general Demophilus and his 700 Thespians who refused to leave the battlefield. Finally, perhaps all of Greek forces wanted to escape but they couldn't because they were surrounded! It's just a guess, but it's guess as much as Herodot's statesment that "Spartans decided to stay and die"!
This statements baffles me the most. The only reason leonidas even went to go and fight was because the oracle at delphi said " For sparta to survive, a descended of herakles must die." That is paraphrased but the only reason Leonidas went to battle, during a religious ceremony, was to protect Sparta. To fulfill the prophecy. The Spartans were extremely religious. Plus this man is claiming opinion as fact.
"8) Fiction: "Brave" Greeks tried to save Leonidas body.
Fact: There is a old practice in all ancient armies; soldiers must defend life of their leader to the end, so it's most probably Leonidas died among last few Greeks. Think logical; they were surrounded, few Greeks left alive - so who could try to save him? Where would they take his body? Obviously it's just another Herodotus's attempt to show this Greek defeat the glorious as possible."
Leonidas died early on the last day of battle. A battle over the corpse ensued. The Corpse of Leonidas was a prize. The Persians usually honored the dead. What they did with Leonidas was cut off his head and not return the body, until later on. The persians wanted the body, the greeks wanted the body to revere their leader and send him off in a proper burial.
"9) Fiction: Persians failed to kill Greeks so they finished them with arrows.
Fact: Another unlogical nonsense. At first, Greeks were protected in 14-meters wide passage by high cliffs and heavy armor, so logical it's impossible Persians killed Greeks only with their arrows. Second, arrow attacks are usual at first stages of battle because they rarefy enemy troops, not usual for final stages. Why did Xerxes send numerous infantry on Greek lines if he could defeat them with arrow attacks? And finally, third thing: How can anyone explain "extremely disproportionate" Persian losses if Persians killed Greeks only with arrows (from distance)?"
A phalanx was meant to protect a formation. Early arrow attacks did fail. Later on, after weapons were lost and men were broken, the Persians killed the remanding Greeks with arrows. These Greeks were unable to shield themselves and why would anyone risk troops when they didn't need to?
"10) Fiction: Persians outnumbered Greeks by 3:1 at Battle of Platea.
Fact: Modern estimates shows Greeks actually outnumbered Persians by 3:2. Herodot, known for exaggerate proportions between Greeks and Persians, estimate 110 000 Greeks participated in this battle. Note; after destroying Athens, Xerxes and main part of his army, including his personal guard Immortals - gone home. If we consider modern estimates of original number of Persian troops, Persians numbered less then 70 000 troops. Greece was controlled by Persian satrap Mardonius, and his army consisted mostly of Greeks and Asian allies. So facts are; real Persians didn't even participated in this battle, while battle was actually fought among Greeks themselves."
Follow my argument. You are a member of clan C. Clan A and B are at war. Clan A conquers you and forces you to fight against Clan B. Clan C may not be Clan A but they fight against Clan B due to the fact they were Conquered by Clan A.
He argues that those fighting were not Persians. Even so, they still aligned themselves against the Greeks and aided the Persians.
Now onto this
"P.S. I don't believe in any kind of Hollywood conspiracy against Iran, but how would members of other ethnic communities worldwide feel if their ancestors were being portrayed as monsters, troglodytes, degenerates, and demons? If we consider Frank Miller and Zack Snyder are Jewish, what would they say about something like this:"
This man is from IRAN. He has a racist, and nationalistic bias. A very hardcore one.
The movie 300 was a movie. It was not real. It was fake. To me the movie was nothing but cliche and gay jokes.Corran Horn, the next time you find something like this do not get it from somewhere with inherent racist and nationalistic themese. "The 'President" of Iran denies the Holocaust. What, did million of people just spontaneously combust? Don't misconstrue me as being racist against Iran. I have no problem with their people. I just can not take anyone denying things in history. If they can deny an event as modern and as large as the holocaust, they can surely deny what happened at thermopalye.
1) Fiction: Spartans numbered 300 troops.
Fact: As you can see, even the title of movie is historical false. During Battle of Thermopylae, there were about 8000 Greeks, not 300. According to historian Diodorus Siculus, here is the list of Greek forces:
2200 Spartans (1300 hoplites and 900 healots)
3000 other Peloponnesians (including Mantineans, Tegeans, Arcadians, Corinthians, Phlians and Mycenaeans)
3100 other Greeks (including Thespians, Melians, Thebans, Phocians and Opuntian Locrians)
Estimates for Greek Troop strength at the Battle of Thermopylae was around six to eight thousand. 2200 Spartans is a figure that is flat out wrong. There were 300 Spartans each operating with 3 helots ( state owned slaves) So in reality there were 300 spartans and 900 spartan slaves. So this man is wrong.
2) Fiction: Persians numbered million(s) troops.
Fact: The greatest historian-liar Herodotus gave number of more then 5.2 million Persian troops during battle which is obviously impossible so that number is rejected by all historians today. In comparison, the largest Roman army ever fielded in ancient times was 200 000 at the Battle of Philippi. Modern scholars have proposed different numbers for the invasion force, estimations based on knowledge of the Persian military systems, their logistical capabilities, the Greek countryside, and supplies available along the army's route. According to numeorus historians (like John A. Scott, Robert Cohen, W. W. Tarn, Ernst Obst, Eduard Meyer, De Sanctis, Helmut Berve, Ulrich Wilcken, Jerry Bentley, Herbert Ziegler, Heather Streets, etc.) estimate Persian troops under 100 000, while historian Hans Delbrueck claim that the Persian fighting forces may have been as small as 15,000 to 20,000 soldiers. So, comparing ancient Greek with modern sources shows Greeks exaggerated number of their enemy by - 350 times!
Again this man is wrong. If the battle was against 15,000- 20,000 soldiers the Greek forces would have won. His claims of such a small force of laughable. If he claims there are that little troops he has no idea of military tactics. The way the Greeks were positioned had it so the Persians could only fight a few men wide. Since the Spartans and other Greeks were so heavily armored the Persian forces would not have broke the Greeks. The number of actual troops is debated. Some may claim the ludicrous number of 15-20k, and there is the claim of a million, to a million plus.. In reality it was roughly 100-300k.
"number of more then 5.2 million Persian troops" While Herodotus did exaggerate the numbers he never said Persian troops. He said Persian. Herodotus counted the other non combat units.
"As you can see; passage was 14-meters wide, and Greeks phalanx consisted of 3 or 4 ranks of soldiers, while their spears were max. 2.7 meters long. According that facts, only about 50 soldiers were able to fight on each side!
Can you imagine millions, thousands, or even hundreds of Persian soldiers engaged in fight here?! It's physical impossible!
Ever been to stadiums? You know it needs about 30 minutes to empty all stadium thru 20 exits, now imagine how much time would it need for fully supplied army numbered hundreds of thousands soldiers to pass thru one 14-meters wide passage?! Probably few days! So it's most probably Persians spent more time passing thru Thermopylae then fighting those Greek enemies."
See the Greek forces chose thermopylae for a reason. There were no other ways through. What isn't known to most is that major naval engagement that went on right near the battle of thermopylae. I want to say salmis straits but don't quote me on that one. Themistocles led an athenian fleet against a persian fleet and won. Now I might have lied when I say there was no other way around, there was. It just would have meant marching all the way around a major sea and conquering an untold amounts of nations.
"Persian Immortals were elite Royal Guards, trained from their birth and chosen only from Persian origin. On other side, Sparta was a slave state! Sparta had many slaves, more then 50% of their population were slaves, known as helots. During movie, you can hear words "Free Greeks" dozens times. Ironic, isn't it?"
True about the immortals. Again, He called Sparta a slave state. The soldiers who fought were not slaves. Sparta did own slaves but they were not considered Spartans.
"6) Fiction: "Brave" Leonidas decided to stay and face larger army.
Fact: After Persians encircled the Greeks, Leonidas actually ordered - retreat. It was Thespian general Demophilus and his 700 Thespians who refused to leave the battlefield. Finally, perhaps all of Greek forces wanted to escape but they couldn't because they were surrounded! It's just a guess, but it's guess as much as Herodot's statesment that "Spartans decided to stay and die"!
This statements baffles me the most. The only reason leonidas even went to go and fight was because the oracle at delphi said " For sparta to survive, a descended of herakles must die." That is paraphrased but the only reason Leonidas went to battle, during a religious ceremony, was to protect Sparta. To fulfill the prophecy. The Spartans were extremely religious. Plus this man is claiming opinion as fact.
"8) Fiction: "Brave" Greeks tried to save Leonidas body.
Fact: There is a old practice in all ancient armies; soldiers must defend life of their leader to the end, so it's most probably Leonidas died among last few Greeks. Think logical; they were surrounded, few Greeks left alive - so who could try to save him? Where would they take his body? Obviously it's just another Herodotus's attempt to show this Greek defeat the glorious as possible."
Leonidas died early on the last day of battle. A battle over the corpse ensued. The Corpse of Leonidas was a prize. The Persians usually honored the dead. What they did with Leonidas was cut off his head and not return the body, until later on. The persians wanted the body, the greeks wanted the body to revere their leader and send him off in a proper burial.
"9) Fiction: Persians failed to kill Greeks so they finished them with arrows.
Fact: Another unlogical nonsense. At first, Greeks were protected in 14-meters wide passage by high cliffs and heavy armor, so logical it's impossible Persians killed Greeks only with their arrows. Second, arrow attacks are usual at first stages of battle because they rarefy enemy troops, not usual for final stages. Why did Xerxes send numerous infantry on Greek lines if he could defeat them with arrow attacks? And finally, third thing: How can anyone explain "extremely disproportionate" Persian losses if Persians killed Greeks only with arrows (from distance)?"
A phalanx was meant to protect a formation. Early arrow attacks did fail. Later on, after weapons were lost and men were broken, the Persians killed the remanding Greeks with arrows. These Greeks were unable to shield themselves and why would anyone risk troops when they didn't need to?
"10) Fiction: Persians outnumbered Greeks by 3:1 at Battle of Platea.
Fact: Modern estimates shows Greeks actually outnumbered Persians by 3:2. Herodot, known for exaggerate proportions between Greeks and Persians, estimate 110 000 Greeks participated in this battle. Note; after destroying Athens, Xerxes and main part of his army, including his personal guard Immortals - gone home. If we consider modern estimates of original number of Persian troops, Persians numbered less then 70 000 troops. Greece was controlled by Persian satrap Mardonius, and his army consisted mostly of Greeks and Asian allies. So facts are; real Persians didn't even participated in this battle, while battle was actually fought among Greeks themselves."
Follow my argument. You are a member of clan C. Clan A and B are at war. Clan A conquers you and forces you to fight against Clan B. Clan C may not be Clan A but they fight against Clan B due to the fact they were Conquered by Clan A.
He argues that those fighting were not Persians. Even so, they still aligned themselves against the Greeks and aided the Persians.
Now onto this
"P.S. I don't believe in any kind of Hollywood conspiracy against Iran, but how would members of other ethnic communities worldwide feel if their ancestors were being portrayed as monsters, troglodytes, degenerates, and demons? If we consider Frank Miller and Zack Snyder are Jewish, what would they say about something like this:"
This man is from IRAN. He has a racist, and nationalistic bias. A very hardcore one.
The movie 300 was a movie. It was not real. It was fake. To me the movie was nothing but cliche and gay jokes.Corran Horn, the next time you find something like this do not get it from somewhere with inherent racist and nationalistic themese. "The 'President" of Iran denies the Holocaust. What, did million of people just spontaneously combust? Don't misconstrue me as being racist against Iran. I have no problem with their people. I just can not take anyone denying things in history. If they can deny an event as modern and as large as the holocaust, they can surely deny what happened at thermopalye.
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semper
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Re: this is sparta?
thanks person above...I was going to say..the clever **Filtered** on the other forum, is NOT oh so clever and is wrong in quite a lot of places. In the end the number of Spartans and Persians is NOT known for fact, and is speculated at by many historians as is the nature of history.
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Honours (5): Hall of Fame 2009. Annual Awards Host 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014 and 2015.
Winner (12): RP'er of the Year 2008, Runner Up Poster of the Year 2008, Debater of the Year 2008, War of the Year 2008, Poster of the Year 2009, Alliance of the Year 2009 (Nemesis Sect, Creator), Alliance War of the Year 2009 (Nempire vs Mayhem, Instigator), RP'er Runner Up 2009, Knew You'd Be Back 2010, Conflict of the Decade (FUALL v TF), Conflict of the Decade Runner Up (Ga vs TF), Alliance of the Decade (TDD).
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Commands (3): Supreme System Lord 2008, 2010, 2011 and 2012. System Lord Council 2006 - present. Dark Lord and Emperor of the Nempire 2009 - 2011.
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vinny d
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Pink_Bunny
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Re: this is sparta?
thx god there are still ppl on this planet who know that history is not created by Hollywood. very well written.
Even the smallest person can change the course of the future.
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Fear Of The Duck
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Re: this is sparta?
one response only. hmm... looks like either vinny is the only expert on ancient history here or i've failed a bit on the marketing side.
i've posted the link after an annoying conversation with a guy who seriously believed there was only 300 spartans fighting there.
this tells a bit different story:
http://academic.reed.edu/humanities/110 ... pylae.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site ... rget=Home&
i've posted the link after an annoying conversation with a guy who seriously believed there was only 300 spartans fighting there.
this tells a bit different story:
http://academic.reed.edu/humanities/110 ... pylae.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site ... rget=Home&
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vinny d
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Re: this is sparta?
Yeah, Hollywood ruins things. As you know by experience, people will argue Hollywood as fact. Personally I have known about the historic last stand since a child. I would run around pretending to be a Spartan at that battle. lol. That was so long ago. It breaks my heart to see a story trampled by Hollywood.
This is an old documentary about Sparta. It is at least five years old. It is very good and something to take a look at.
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=70750
PRODUCT DETAIL:
Rise And Fall Of The Spartans DVD set
They were the finest fighters of the ancient world. Their bravery and skill helped preserve Western Civilization in the face of a massive invasion from the east. Concepts they developed, like the boot camp and frontal assault, remain fixtures of military life and tactics to this day. Along with the Athenians--with whom they fought a decades-long war--they helped to shape, advance and preserve the glory that was Greece.
THE RISE AND FALL OF THE SPARTANS features four episodes exploring every aspect of Sparta's culture, lifestyle, history and legacy. Author Steven Pressfield, (Gates of Fire) reflects on the significance of the Battle of Thermopylae, where a force led by 300 Spartan warriors stalled the advance of a hundred-thousand-plus strong Persian army for nearly a week. Scholars like Barry S. Strauss of Cornell University and Yale's Donald Kagan explore the factors that drove the Peloponnesian city-state to strive for martial excellence. And ancient accounts explain how Sparta's warriors were trained and detail their prowess in battle.
This is an old documentary about Sparta. It is at least five years old. It is very good and something to take a look at.
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=70750
PRODUCT DETAIL:
Rise And Fall Of The Spartans DVD set
They were the finest fighters of the ancient world. Their bravery and skill helped preserve Western Civilization in the face of a massive invasion from the east. Concepts they developed, like the boot camp and frontal assault, remain fixtures of military life and tactics to this day. Along with the Athenians--with whom they fought a decades-long war--they helped to shape, advance and preserve the glory that was Greece.
THE RISE AND FALL OF THE SPARTANS features four episodes exploring every aspect of Sparta's culture, lifestyle, history and legacy. Author Steven Pressfield, (Gates of Fire) reflects on the significance of the Battle of Thermopylae, where a force led by 300 Spartan warriors stalled the advance of a hundred-thousand-plus strong Persian army for nearly a week. Scholars like Barry S. Strauss of Cornell University and Yale's Donald Kagan explore the factors that drove the Peloponnesian city-state to strive for martial excellence. And ancient accounts explain how Sparta's warriors were trained and detail their prowess in battle.