a real education and reality check.

[[KMA]Avenger]

please watch these films, they are WELL WORTH YOUR TIME, i guarantee it!

we can discuss the implications of the films ONLY after ALL of them have been watched:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHZTjTmrgjI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alqgpuAw ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqnaHNw ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9zxVMNm ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWnv66ER ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUD5f0MW ... re=related

[[KMA]Avenger]

sorry for the double post BUT...sandman asked me why i posted youtube clips, my response:

watch them and see...its an interview with Mary Croft that contains information that is explosive to say the least!

1. Dont watch youtube. 2. Easier to read text.
3. People prefer text. 4. Text is stronger evidence.

so if like sandman you dont like to watch films then download her free book and learn:

http://www.hackcanada.com/canadian/free ... _croft.pdf

[Elongar]

Some quotes...

When I was in grade 3 (1957), my teacher was telling us about Magellan being the first white man to
circum-navigate the globe. This wasn’t particularly difficult for me to accept and yet, suddenly, I sat back in my chair and looked at my fellow students and was hit by the realization, “She could tell us anything.” From then on, I became suspect of everything which might be construed as propaganda or about which my mother had warned me, “Consider the source”. By that she meant, always look for a vested interest. Question the credibility of the source. Who says so? Quo warranto (by what authority)? Who stands to gain? This is now commonly known as, “Follow the money”. From that day on, I became highly suspicious of the true purpose of my being "schooled".

Equally,

Corporations want debt, not credit....

This is all making me worry for the sanity of this woman...

To address the first quote, Mary Croft is right to "always look for a vested interest". Let's consider the vested interest of teachers. No reasonable man would deny that teaching is a highly-skilled occupation, which requires years of study, not to mention pedagogical expertise/experience. The effort required to get a bunch of unruly youths to absorb large quantities of information at the rate required for public exams and, indeed, for higher education/employment is phenomenal. Teacher's salaries aren't exactly sky-high either. In the UK, starting salaries are apparently in the region of £20k, with the main payscale going up to £30k. With the same background, a number of highly lucrative industrial/financial possibilities are open (possibly less financial opportunities more recently...), and if financial concerns form the basis of a career choice, you'd be insane to become a teacher. And yet many do! Am I the only one who sees altruism in that choice?!? Surely it's not too hard to believe that the teacher became a teacher NOT to fool thousands of schoolchildren into buying into a false economic model and wasting their lives away BUT to educate the next generation of innovators, entrepreneurs, thinkers, artists and creators?

As for Mrs Croft's economic theory, it seriously needs some brushing up. I am not an economist, and yet pure common sense tells me that much of what she has been spouting at me for the last [insert significant period of time here] has been utter rubbish. We are all turned into corporations that represent us upon the completion of our birth certificates? The government is simply a corporation (I admit, it does have some semblence of a corporation in terms of some policies it pursues, but it has fundamentally political and not economic motives...)? There is no criminal code, Bill of Rights, etc.? She's an anarchist! Quite frankly, she's afraid of a formal education, and yet a formal education would explain exactly where she went wrong in this web of complete paranoid craziness. I'm a firm believer in reason as the basis of education, and not one reason she gives has contributed to the validity of her thesis.

Her theories suggest a web of deceit so thick that one would have to settle for a life as a shrimp to avoid becoming just another pawn in a global scam of obscene proportions. Five months have passed since these videos have been posted (and presumably even more since the interview was first conducted), and not one shred of evidence is there for this mass revelation that she has proclaimed will change the way we live. The sub-prime mortgage market has been decimated, chewed into very small pieces and has generally gone the way of the Dodo, taking with it a slew of banks and major corporation - those that weren't lucky enough to be able to board the national bailing-out lifeboat. However nothing suggests that we will now abandon the financial system as it is and revert to Medieval mercantilism.

[Thriller]

These people here are taking dramatic leaps of faith with their reasoning. (as elonger pointed out). A special characteristic of an idea is it has the ability to change. Yes i believe our education system should focus more on the development of reasoning skills more than memorization (but that's a different discussion.)

She is right that you should always questions the source. But the connections she makes to connect the flaws she sees in the education system to a global mind control conspiracy clearly show a severely flawed reasoning ability.

[[KMA]Avenger]

why are we discussing conspiracy's and the like, instead of actually discussing what mary is talking about?

[Elongar]

Because what Mary is talking about is a conspiracy theory.

She literally says that the US government is a corporation that has jumped to power through deceitful means, and subjected the US people to its rules and laws purely for monetary gain. Furthermore, she says that the only real rules that anybody obeys are some maritime merchant codes that I've never heard of and that all other constitutional and legal codes are in fact irrelevant and do not apply at all to human beings. She says there is no criminal code (why are prisons overflowing please?). She says that one can walk into a shop and pick up any item at leisure in exchange for some fictional "infinite credit" that the treasury is holding in exchange for our labour.

That last bit is quite worrying actually. She suggests that we are already entitled to products and services that others offer, merely by virtue of our own labour, and that in fact, no monetary exchange must take place at all. She's rejected the idea that we are compensated for our labour directly by corporations (which, throughout this monologue, are seen as the evil, overmighty monoliths that prevent us from leading happy lives), and that we use our resultant earnings to pay for products and services. In short, she has completely rejected capitalism.

If you can show us what exactly it is you find to be so educational in these interviews, I'd be much obliged.

[[KMA]Avenger]

if you didn't get it when Mary explained it i doubt you will listen and pay attention...i mean get it when i explain it!
no amount of persuasion on my part is going to convince you that she knows EXACTLY what she is talking about and is indeed telling you the truth if you didn't get it the first time round.

you now have 5 options:

you can think i'm nuts.

you can think she is nuts.

you can dismiss us both as nuts.

you can just laugh and think no more of this...or...

you can open you mind and dig deeper!

if your going to dig deeper, then start by looking up every day words we all use and their meanings in blacks law dictionary, because if that doesn't get your alarm bells ringing, nothing will!

[Elongar]

Who's to say I don't get it? I get it perfectly. Mary has successfully communicated her information to me and I have absorbed it, critically analysed it and declared it to be void of reason and judgement. Just listen to her! I can't count the number of times she says "This is what they want us to believe, but the truth is.....". And how does she back up her particular interpretation of "The Truth(tm)"? That's just it! She doesn't! She gives no evidence to back up her claims, and I'd be surprised if she has reputable sources for her information.

An argument must stand on the grounds of reason and debate - that is to say that an ordinarily intelligent man must be able to grasp its tenets if they are explained to him and justified using logic and reason. The onus is on the proponent of the claim to justify it, and not on me to side with it. We are not dealing here with issues that require dedicated scholarship of a subject to comprehend. Your posting them on an MMO forum is suggestive of the fact that they are intended to be accessible. So please don't defend an argument by claiming the incompetence of the opposition. Have the intellectual integrity to put forward some comment of your own.

The above may sound unreasonably harsh, but it's entirely my wish to be able to take something educational and valuable from these videos. I didn't watch them all the way through for nothing, did I? Now I would simply like you to explain your perspective so that I can form a reasonable conclusion of my own as to what should be taken away from them. In other words, you can't simply post some videos on these forums and expect everybody to see them for the intellectual genius that you see them to be. You need to explain their significance to you so that other people may better appreciate them for themselves.

Also, not to detract from the discussion, but since Mary Croft seems to have labelled herself as something of an authority on these issues, I'd be interested in her academic credentials in the subjects she is talking about. I am perfectly aware that one need not be a Nobel Prize Winner to understand economics, but with regards to the magnitude of her claims, it would be reassuring to hear that there is a sure, theoretical underpinning to her arguments.

EDIT: For a basic dismissal of these claims, check out here.

[Thriller]

Who's to say I don't get it? I get it perfectly. Mary has successfully communicated her information to me and I have absorbed it, critically analysed it and declared it to be void of reason and judgement. Just listen to her! I can't count the number of times she says "This is what they want us to believe, but the truth is.....". And how does she back up her particular interpretation of "The Truth(tm)"? That's just it! She doesn't! She gives no evidence to back up her claims, and I'd be surprised if she has reputable sources for her information.

An argument must stand on the grounds of reason and debate - that is to say that an ordinarily intelligent man must be able to grasp its tenets if they are explained to him and justified using logic and reason. The onus is on the proponent of the claim to justify it, and not on me to side with it. We are not dealing here with issues that require dedicated scholarship of a subject to comprehend. Your posting them on an MMO forum is suggestive of the fact that they are intended to be accessible. So please don't defend an argument by claiming the incompetence of the opposition. Have the intellectual integrity to put forward some comment of your own.

The above may sound unreasonably harsh, but it's entirely my wish to be able to take something educational and valuable from these videos. I didn't watch them all the way through for nothing, did I? Now I would simply like you to explain your perspective so that I can form a reasonable conclusion of my own as to what should be taken away from them. In other words, you can't simply post some videos on these forums and expect everybody to see them for the intellectual genius that you see them to be. You need to explain their significance to you so that other people may better appreciate them for themselves.

Also, not to detract from the discussion, but since Mary Croft seems to have labelled herself as something of an authority on these issues, I'd be interested in her academic credentials in the subjects she is talking about. I am perfectly aware that one need not be a Nobel Prize Winner to understand economics, but with regards to the magnitude of her claims, it would be reassuring to hear that there is a sure, theoretical underpinning to her arguments.

EDIT: For a basic dismissal of these claims, check out here.

[Mister Sandman]

you now have 5 options:

you can think i'm nuts.
Yep
you can think she is nuts.
Yep
you can dismiss us both as nuts.
Yep
you can just laugh and think no more of this...or...
Yep
you can open you mind and dig deeper!
Already have.

[Deaths_Rider]

looks like he forgot option 6 be extremly arrogant

[semper]

How very amusing. It appears another one of Avengers conspiracy theories got steam rolled.

Events like these are starting to become a regular occurrence. You should find a new pile of twaddle to try and preach to us Avenger..perhaps you should start quoting the bible and proving its wonderful tales...

have some time to think about it, but if this topic is no longer up for debate after Elongars...rather elongated stampeding then one of the other mods or myself will lock it.

[Juliette]

*smirks subtly, raises thumbs to Elongar, high-fives Thriller and stands in the doorway, humming to Jack*

Old King Cole
Was a merry old soul
And a merry old soul was he;
He called for his pipe
And he called for his bowl
And he called for his fiddlers three.
Every fiddler he had a fiddle
And a very fine fiddle had he;
Oh, there's none so rare
As can compare
With King Cole and his fiddlers three.

*walks off into the hallway with a suddenly brisk pace*

Well said, Elongar.

[[KMA]Avenger]

The above may sound unreasonably harsh, but it's entirely my wish to be able to take something educational and valuable from these videos. I didn't watch them all the way through for nothing, did I? Now I would simply like you to explain your perspective so that I can form a reasonable conclusion of my own as to what should be taken away from them. In other words, you can't simply post some videos on these forums and expect everybody to see them for the intellectual genius that you see them to be. You need to explain their significance to you so that other people may better appreciate them for themselves.

maybe i expect to much, but what i was hoping for was for everyone visiting the thread to ask 1 simple question, could it be true? and to go forth and investigate it themselves, hence why i asked to debate it AFTER the interview had been heard.

i'm investigating this myself, i have not taken it at face value and thought "WOW, i'm a bazillionaire and didn't even know cuz the bad people in government didn't tell us!", this is NOT a debate about conspiracy's, i have other threads for that!
having said that, the woman is not lying when she speaks of our nations being bankrupt. i've heard many politicians from many nations admit our nations are bankrupt and that all money is debt based, this is an easily researched fact by pulling out a bill from your pocket and reading what it says, you can also look up how banks operate a "fractional reserve banking system" and what "fractional reserve banking" actually means with regards to the creation of new currency and credit.

Also, not to detract from the discussion, but since Mary Croft seems to have labelled herself as something of an authority on these issues, I'd be interested in her academic credentials in the subjects she is talking about. I am perfectly aware that one need not be a Nobel Prize Winner to understand economics, but with regards to the magnitude of her claims, it would be reassuring to hear that there is a sure, theoretical underpinning to her arguments.

EDIT: For a basic dismissal of these claims, check out here.

i'm looking into her claims, she has a rather extensive blog, but seeing how she is canadian and i am a brit, i need to find the corresponding british forms and what not...

btw, anybody can post a link to a forum, if i say 1 thing (anything, doesn't matter what) i could probably find 100 forums talking about any subject i choose. i try not to support my arguments by providing links to forums simply because they are either discussing the same thing or agree with what i say.

[Mister Sandman]

The current monetary system is indeed based on debt. However, it is impossible for us, normal citizens, to "create" debt money.

Only way to get money for normal citizens is to, 1. Work (be enslaved to the system). 2. Getting your money to work. (Thus being liable to the system) 3. Getting assets to turn into money. (Still being subjected to supply and demand)

I will explain how money is actually indeed debt at this time. Basically, the government calls up the bank and says, " We need 10 B " and the Bank says " Yo, we will buy 10 B in bonds."

So, the government "creates" bonds out of thin air. Hence forth giving it to the bank. The bank just prints money out of thin air. And gives this to the Government. Thus, the money is owed to the bank by the government. And thus, debt.

This goes on and on.

So thus, money = debt. Interest and thus inflation = another tax.


However, with education that's another issue.

Teachers teach because usually they like teaching. Also, they do not, personally choose what they teach. They have to follow a program which is monitored.


All in all, when it comes to interviews, whether it be Mary Croft or Al Gore in the "inconvenient truth". Treat it with a grain of salt. This meaning that a copious measure of skepticism should be applied regarding the claim; that it should not be blindly accepted and believed without any doubt or reservation.

So, one piece of evidence isn't going to cut it.