What was the Black Death?

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RepliMagni
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What was the Black Death?

The Black Death


Given the current fear over something like a bit of swine flu, I figured I'd dig up the worst natural disaster in written history. The title may be about what the disease was, but the debate is more than welcome to open up to its social/economic impacts, how many people it killed, where it was from, pretty much anything you're interested in.

So, I'll start it off by putting forward the suggestion that the disease was anything but bubonic plague (at least in any recognisable strain of its modern form). The disease spread far too quickly for bubonic plague (even in its primary pneumonic form) to have possibly been the cause. There is no strong evidence for the widespread existence of rats in the medieval countryside, whilst some countries such as Iceland were affected by the disease and yet it is well-documented they had no rats until later centuries.

In modern bubonic plague there is only usually one, or in a few rare cases two, buboes formed. However, the medieval chronicles are full of people being covered with black pustules, or documenting several buboes in various places of the body (including away from the lymphatic nodes). The medieval chroncilers are also insistent on the contagious nature of the disease, and yet modern commentators have often been astounded at how hard it is for bubonic plague to actually spread.

Moreover, chroniclers have suggested that the Black Death also killed animals - some by direct observation, and others by saying there was a simultaneous murrain - and yet bubonic plague does not affect animals except rodents. Lastly, modern bubonic plague is not nearly as lethal as the rates suggested by medieval physicians/chroniclers, who claim it was fatal in nearly all cases.

So - what was the disease? Bubonic plague? A form of bubonic plague that has since mutated into a much less virulent and deadly strain? The first recorded outbreak of anthrax? Or a disease from space that arrived in a comet strike?
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Re: What was the Black Death?

RepliMagni wrote:
The Black Death


Given the current fear over something like a bit of swine flu, I figured I'd dig up the worst natural disaster in written history. The title may be about what the disease was, but the debate is more than welcome to open up to its social/economic impacts, how many people it killed, where it was from, pretty much anything you're interested in.

So, I'll start it off by putting forward the suggestion that the disease was anything but bubonic plague (at least in any recognisable strain of its modern form). The disease spread far too quickly for bubonic plague (even in its primary pneumonic form) to have possibly been the cause. There is no strong evidence for the widespread existence of rats in the medieval countryside, whilst some countries such as Iceland were affected by the disease and yet it is well-documented they had no rats until later centuries.

In modern bubonic plague there is only usually one, or in a few rare cases two, buboes formed. However, the medieval chronicles are full of people being covered with black pustules, or documenting several buboes in various places of the body (including away from the lymphatic nodes). The medieval chroncilers are also insistent on the contagious nature of the disease, and yet modern commentators have often been astounded at how hard it is for bubonic plague to actually spread.

Moreover, chroniclers have suggested that the Black Death also killed animals - some by direct observation, and others by saying there was a simultaneous murrain - and yet bubonic plague does not affect animals except rodents. Lastly, modern bubonic plague is not nearly as lethal as the rates suggested by medieval physicians/chroniclers, who claim it was fatal in nearly all cases.

So - what was the disease? Bubonic plague? A form of bubonic plague that has since mutated into a much less virulent and deadly strain? The first recorded outbreak of anthrax? Or a disease from space that arrived in a comet strike?


lol, Don;t forget to take into account advances in plumbing, water treatment ,standard of living, nutirtion, anti biotics, biological research..... (list goes on). when making comparisons to modern times.

The bobonic plague can also be spread by musquitos, ticks and other paracites; through the simple act of feeding on an inffected carcasus', not just thorugh infected rodents, (which includes mice, and moles). Also and increase in trading rootes to east asia at the time help support the bubonic theory.

The other idea i heard was hemmoragic fever. which is possible, but the transmision rate doesn't really match a virus like that.
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RepliMagni
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Re: What was the Black Death?

Thriller wrote:lol, Don;t forget to take into account advances in plumbing, water treatment ,standard of living, nutirtion, anti biotics, biological research..... (list goes on). when making comparisons to modern times.


Sorry about that - I was being loose with my terminology. The modern comparisons are with the transcripts from the British India Plague Commission at the end of the 19th / start of the 20th century into plague outbreaks in rural India....conditions there and then were not much different to medieval Europe as far as I'm aware.

Thriller wrote:The bobonic plague can also be spread by musquitos, ticks and other paracites; through the simple act of feeding on an inffected carcasus', not just thorugh infected rodents, (which includes mice, and moles). Also and increase in trading rootes to east asia at the time help support the bubonic theory.


Trouble is - when a flea takes a blood meal which includes yersinia pestis, the disease blocks the flea's stomach...next time the flea tries to feed it regurgitates the disease into its host, but its stomach remains blocked....any flea infected with yersinia pestis dies within a few days of starvation. Couple that with their naturally high death rates, especially in cold conditions such as winter in London, and the fact that they can't reproduce without a blood meal and above a certain temperature, and it looks very unlikely enough could have survived to produce a six-month epidemic in the middle of winter....especially unlikely that this would have happened time and again across medieval Europe.....

Thriller wrote:The other idea i heard was hemmoragic fever. which is possible, but the transmision rate doesn't really match a virus like that


Yeah....I've heard that one before.....I'm leaning towards a disease from space....just because it is such a great theory :P
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iron spiderman
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Re: What was the Black Death?

This is a very good question. One thing we do know, once rats (and the ticks and fleas they carried) were killed off there were many fewer cases of the Black Death. It was purported to have existed in London until the Great Fire of 1666. I personally think that it was something that was made worse by the filth Europeans of that time lived in. Even if the plague was something like Ebola or other viral hemorrhagic fevers, this would hold true. I am lead to believe this seeing as there were no outbreaks in cleaner environments such as Rome during the time of the Empire. It could have been Bubonic Plague, but we will never really know.
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Re: What was the Black Death?

Its a mutated string of the bubonic plague...It was carried by rats into Europe and no one is really sure HOW exactly it mutated!I don't know if it also killed animals but i suspect not as the rats carrying the disease didn't die...
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iron spiderman
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Re: What was the Black Death?

And that is the theory that has made the most sense out of all the years of study.
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Re: What was the Black Death?

hmm, after reading the title i thought it was something else entirely

oh well, we still have our dreams.....
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