Apophis' reforms proposals about education

[Legendary Apophis]

My stance on education...beware, it might be shockworthy. (This is for EU, and only for EU.)


[spoiler]Firstly, I would like harder level exams during scholarship before university, for whole EU, to make efficient filters to keep good elements. University entry shall be hard in all EU countries. Selection by results shall installed in all countries (above 11/20 average pre-exams year+exams AT LEAST).

Secondly, a rise of unqualified rabble amounts is required. You will tell me it's bad? In theory, I would agree. In theory. Don't forget one thing. Unqualified jobs still exist! How do we fill them then? Either immigrants or qualified people who don't deserve such low qualified job, but had their diplom value worsened (due to pathetic "philantropia" from governments, to make sure most can get diploms, to do well in future; positive utopian ideas don't work, get over them lol).
We don't want uncontrolled immigration in EU, isn't it? That's why EPP is in office, rather than other movements more lenients on said subject. This leads to my third point:

Revaluation of diploms. Given harder access to universities, by selection on results, number of students decreases. Therefore, by logic & rationality, the less people obtain a diplom, the more said diplom's (without being changed much) value increase. Why would we sacrifice the best (and to some extent, everyone), in favour of an hypothetical positive move, towards the below-average student? That's counter-productive! Also, a good orientation has to be organised before finishing high school, to make sure the person doesn't end in a path not fit for him/her. This would probably increase slighty the level of results observed.

Last but not least, real troublesome students who screw up courses constantly and are thugs-in-the-coming get sent to reeducation schools where they are taught morals and things like that. They can also be sent to do free-of-wage local works such as cleaning public gardens from papers, or cleaning walls from silly writings they are likely to have drawn. To be short, "community works". That solves the issue of unqualified/low qualified studies being full of those parasites. (of course, low qualified is subjective to some extent)[/spoiler]

[Kit-Fox]

Ahh yes the idea that rarity is what makes a degree important, rather than actual knowledge & that the lower classes should stick to working class jobs & not stick their heads up above the parapet or the degree educated will cut them off for getting ideas above their station.

That has to be without doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever read here! It definately makes my top 5 list.

[Legendary Apophis]

Ahh yes the idea that rarity is what makes a degree important, rather than actual knowledge & that the lower classes should stick to working class jobs & not stick their heads up above the parapet or the degree educated will cut them off for getting ideas above their station.

That has to be without doubt one of the stupidest things I have ever read here!

And the opposite of system I mentionned in stance currently, is uberly failing.
Utopia of a 100% equally and generically educated and qualified population is tasty in theory but an epic fail in practice!

In past, people who had an university diplom were able to have the access they deserved. Now, what do we see, a crazy amount of diplomated people, good good. What do we also see? A good part of said people in jobs below their qualifications, while people with lower qualifications have barely a chance to find a job. Wonderful, isn't it?

[Ashu]

Its faulty from the get-go...Why harder exams?Change what is taught first, make it easier to comprehend, more interactive.Less tests and more compositions and creative writing, you don't want to build mathematicians and politicians but let people understand and build themselves in what they want, as Avanger said with his son. More sporting activities and READING (something a lot don't do these days). More music, drawing and better paid teachers (at least in my country) . You want to motivate young people to study and actually learn something from it!

[Kit-Fox]

Thats no excuse to go so far in the opposite direction. Lots of people that have invented many useful things or gone on to be instrumental to certain events would never have existed in the manner they do now if your proposals had existed say 20/30 years ago as they wouldnt have had the resources or appropiate education to pass your strict exams & yes how your taught does matter

[Legendary Apophis]

Thats no excuse to go so far in the opposite direction. Lots of people that have invented many useful things or gone on to be instrumental to certain events would never have existed in the manner they do now if your proposals had existed say 20/30 years ago as they wouldnt have had the resources or appropiate education to pass your strict exams & yes how your taught does matter

So you think we should rather sacrifice the whole because some below-the-exams-reqs MIGHT become very positive creators later?
Nah sorry, current state of things is too much problematic. I see facts and I prefer to solve an exisiting issue than think of potential potentialities.

[Kit-Fox]

Its not thinking of potentials, the evidence shows that a fair number of current day sucessful businessmen/women & scientists/inventors come from backgrounds who would not have the ability to adhere to your system due to a lack of resources as well as the fact that the system that would conspire to keep them down.

And trust us it would conspire to keep them down, the British know this having already tried the very same system you have proposed.

EDIT: Tell me have you heard of the 11+ exam & grammer schools / secondary schools & do you understand the difference between them when they were originally created??

[Legendary Apophis]

Its not thinking of potentials, the evidence shows that a fair number of current day sucessful businessmen/women & scientists/inventors come from backgrounds who would not have the ability to adhere to your system due to a lack of resources as well as the fact that the system that would conspire to keep them down.

And trust us it would conspire to keep them down, the British know this having already tried the very same system you have proposed.

EDIT: Tell me have you heard of the 11+ exam & grammer schools / secondary schools & do you understand the difference between them when they were originally created??

I must inform you that I don't come from a rich background... (always makes me grin that people think I'm from a high social class given my ideas. I'm not into the social classes fights crap defending my class and all and therefore being in favour of silly system, as I apparently should, being from a low er part of middle classes background)

I didn't mean it would be restricted by money but by skills. Why do you think I am THAT much in favour of strict selection by skills? Only the best must remain. Them being from poor classes, or from elites. Thus selection during scholarship to highlight good students from poor backgrounds, and extract them from where they are, to prevent them losing their skills.

It's because I receive a grant from university I think the way I do lol!!! I feel that the lack of selection enables idiots to get the grant then leave or do the minimal and fill ranks and managed to get there due to lack of selection during exams & to enter university.

I am a student for several years, still currently am. Face this kind of unwanted people in uni every day. So thank you, I know pretty much what I'm talking about!

[Kit-Fox]

But this is the problem that I am trying to get you to see, such system do start by selecting purely only on academic skill but once the system is in place lots of other things start to happen as well.

Teachers for example start to not bothering to help those they know to be from lower class families, thinking that such people dont need to understand or know the knowledge being imparted and so they let those people goto the back of the class and play around while they teach the one they know to be from higher class families.

Also those from higher class families are more likely to have access to great resources with which to help the education of their child that those of lower classes probably wont have access too.

Seriously, you should look at the history of the British education system, we have tried the very thing you are proposing and it didnt quite turn out as you seem to think it will. In fact it hasnt turned out like you think it will pretty much anywhere it has been tried.

[[KMA]Avenger]

what was the point of starting another thread about education when we already have a "general" thread?


whatever...

[Juliette]

Yes, let's make education easier. Why would we discriminate against the average retard by making quantum physics so damned difficult to understand?! It must be the material that is faulty, not the student whose mind is defective.

Don't change anything. Just shoot the **Filtered** who fails their exams.
See how that motivates retards to quit whining about how difficult everything is. **Filtered** morons.



After all, why would we build an educational system that actually teaches our people something worth knowing? Isn't it much better to just hand them their degree, and not have to worry about our suicide rates?
Hey, wait, where are our intelligentsia going!? Meh, never mind.. who needs them anyway. We can make do with the average retard. After all, we don't need to understand why a bridge collapses to build one. We just build one and see when it collapses. Or well, we start building, but because the average retard doesn't have the foggiest idea on how to manage logistics, we stop halfway through the building process. Meh.. who needs that bridge anyway.
Just line me against the wall, that kind of egalitarian **Filtered** isn't what I signed up for when I joined this body.
/rant

And agreed, G. We don't need yet another thread. Jim, next time, think twice.

[Legendary Apophis]

But this is the problem that I am trying to get you to see, such system do start by selecting purely only on academic skill but once the system is in place lots of other things start to happen as well.

Teachers for example start to not bothering to help those they know to be from lower class families, thinking that such people dont need to understand or know the knowledge being imparted and so they let those people goto the back of the class and play around while they teach the one they know to be from higher class families.
Oh but you know, my idea of the system also includes help to those who deserve it (people are treated "equally" due to their skills=> what we call in french "équité", who deserves, deserves, who doesn't, bad for him/her hehe. That's theoretically one of basis of this kind of program, even though I didn't mention it. To mention it later

Also those from higher class families are more likely to have access to great resources with which to help the education of their child that those of lower classes probably wont have access too.
There are people who manage to get into elite schools from poor backgrounds, they receive help from said schools into preparing themselves on how to get there (year before quitting high school). I also promote free moving on schools & no limits which means if you are located on a **Filtered** part of the town and there's a decent school in the other side AND get sufficient results, you move to good school. Bad thing for bad school? Yes. But as I keep telling, rather sacrifice the bad than the good!

Seriously, you should look at the history of the British education system, we have tried the very thing you are proposing and it didnt quite turn out as you seem to think it will. In fact it hasnt turned out like you think it will pretty much anywhere it has been tried.
And France has the system I denounce (appeared slowly but surely due to the "murdering of university's greatness" after 1968 by revolted students' revendications that screwed up the efficiency of diploms), and used to have the thing -more or less- I promote. Guess which system had a fair value of diploms and being a uni student was a thing that was definitely a good thing to be for your working career? If you guessed the old system (similar to mine) then you are right!
I'm sure that it missed some "counter" policies I also support to keep it balanced and efficient

G, I felt this topic would go down the road the wrong way...but well if your lot wants, request a merge with the other?

Yes, let's make education easier. Why would we discriminate against the average retard by making quantum physics so damned difficult to understand?! It must be the material that is faulty, not the student whose mind is defective.

Don't change anything. Just shoot the **Filtered** who fails their exams.
See how that motivates retards to quit whining about how difficult everything is. **Filtered** morons.
Erm that's too harsh..


After all, why would we build an educational system that actually teaches our people something worth knowing? Isn't it much better to just hand them their degree, and not have to worry about our suicide rates?
Hey, wait, where are our intelligentsia going!? Meh, never mind.. who needs them anyway. We can make do with the average retard. After all, we don't need to understand why a bridge collapses to build one. We just build one and see when it collapses. Or well, we start building, but because the average retard doesn't have the foggiest idea on how to manage logistics, we stop halfway through the building process. Meh.. who needs that bridge anyway.
Just line me against the wall, that kind of egalitarian **Filtered** isn't what I signed up for when I joined this body.
/rant

And agreed, G. We don't need yet another thread. Jim, next time, think twice.

Do you actually agree with me or...

[[KMA]Avenger]

Yes, let's make education easier. Why would we discriminate against the average retard by making quantum physics so damned difficult to understand?! It must be the material that is faulty, not the student whose mind is defective.

Don't change anything. Just shoot the **Filtered** who fails their exams.
See how that motivates retards to quit whining about how difficult everything is. **Filtered** morons.



After all, why would we build an educational system that actually teaches our people something worth knowing? Isn't it much better to just hand them their degree, and not have to worry about our suicide rates?
Hey, wait, where are our intelligentsia going!? Meh, never mind.. who needs them anyway. We can make do with the average retard. After all, we don't need to understand why a bridge collapses to build one. We just build one and see when it collapses. Or well, we start building, but because the average retard doesn't have the foggiest idea on how to manage logistics, we stop halfway through the building process. Meh.. who needs that bridge anyway.
Just line me against the wall, that kind of egalitarian **Filtered** isn't what I signed up for when I joined this body.
/rant

And agreed, G. We don't need yet another thread. Jim, next time, think twice.

that post was so funny my sides are splitting!

[Legendary Apophis]

Four stars sarcastic shooting by Jo, but I'm not totally sure who were the targets..

As I said earlier, I felt this would be like a giant burning so I felt it should be made seperatly. If you feel it needs to be merged with the other thread, I guess requesting a debate mod to merge both topics is needed.

[[KMA]Avenger]

seriously Jim, what was the point of this thread?