The EU Situation (not an EU bashing thread).

[[KMA]Avenger]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 01,00.html


As much as i want to see the EU relegated to the dustbin of history, i hope it wont be as bad as i think it will be because if it does start to fall apart-our leaders will take us to war.

As far as the above article goes, i cant see the EU lasting much longer. What are your thoughts on the above article?

[MEZZANINE]

LMAO

I would love to see the EU all fall apart, undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful pile of ***** that it is.

BUT it wont die, not for a long long time, it will keep sucking the money, rights and power out of the member countries and expanding. If Greece is really threatening to leave it's a bluff to get their interest rates dropped, and if the EU fall for the bluff they will drop the interest rates and give Greece and other bankrupt countries huge amounts of money so they can afford to make the payments.

What the hell else can the EU do if Greece defaulted on loans, send in the bailiffs ? Have our banks W/O hundreds of Billions and need bailouts again. Basically giving to the banks instead of giving to Greece, same cost.

And if what could Greece do after defaulting on loans, no one else would ever lend to them again, they dont make anything or have any natural resources and on tourist income alone they could not support themselves.

[Cole]

LMAO

I would love to see the EU all fall apart, undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful pile of ***** that it is.

BUT it wont die, not for a long long time, it will keep sucking the money, rights and power out of the member countries and expanding. If Greece is really threatening to leave it's a bluff to get their interest rates dropped, and if the EU fall for the bluff they will drop the interest rates and give Greece and other bankrupt countries huge amounts of money so they can afford to make the payments.

I'm very thankful the Euro currency got created, I cannot imagine how horrible it would have been if we still had our currencies in the continent (well, even Germany would have suffered from 2008 crisis if they still had DeutscheMark). Devaluation for everyone and you get an astonishingly horrible price for oil and other imported resources for the lot! People often forget it's not always about exports, but also imports...
As for Greece's case, well, I think they entered Eurozone despite not fulfilling the criteria (that was quite risky thing to do), not to mention the fake reports discovered a little while ago. Well, if Greece leaves the Eurozone, I'm sure Germany will not ask otherwise, them being quite strict regarding fulfilling criteria of inflation, national debt etc...

And before you Brits start to scream about what I said, I didn't mean the UK as after all, you still have your own currency...

[byrne_1]

UK is the cash machine for EU, they rob us of our money to help countries who have max out their credit cards with their euros. UK is in a major mess as well, UK taxpayers are being hammered for other countries government mess as well their preivous UK goverment in power.

All one fit size dont work for other countries way of life.

[Cole]

That's the principle of helping out "friend" nations (that's one of the original principles of the EU & before the EEC [?]), but it depends how you see the others, if you see them as parasites/vampires, surely you're not happy to see help towards these others. When the feeling of "to each their own and who cares about the others but ourselves" gets in, the politico-economic alliances such as the EU start to appear as a scapegoat for the many.
Of course, to be fair it shouldn't be one sided help, therefore, it's to be expected the ones who asked for loans from the EU, will have to pay back most of it, as every country as its problems, even the most dynamic/efficient ones...but obviously payback in the mid to long term...If Greece leaves the Eurozone, well, I'm likely sure they're going to enter into a devaluation vicious circle with their drachma (I guess it will be that).

"It would lead to a considerable devaluation of the new (Greek) domestic currency against the euro," the paper states. According to German Finance Ministry estimates, the currency could lose as much as 50 percent of its value, leading to a drastic increase in Greek national debt. Schäuble's staff have calculated that Greece's national deficit would rise to 200 percent of gross domestic product after such a devaluation. "A debt restructuring would be inevitable," his experts warn in the paper. In other words: Greece would go bankrupt.

What he said

That's why I'm totally hostile towards the ones in my country who are as crazy as asking to withdraw France from Eurozone. Bunch of national-economy kamikazes these politicians are...

[Juliette]

[spoiler=Off-topic: Euro Proposal]Off Topic:
Confusing the EU with the Eurozone is a common error, but an error nonetheless. Get your definitions in order before blasting off at the speed of light. (pokémon reference: -1 rep)


I'd propose a meta-currency instead of one universal currency; the Euro as a 'common' currency, but without a 'cash form'. All EU currencies (Reichsmark, franc, etc..) would be 'tied' to this virtual currency, which would only be relevant for trading.
No one actually has this 'Euro' in their pockets, but when trading on the currencies market, you trade from Renminbi/whatever-crappy-currency to Euro. All citizens of the participating nations of the Euro-zone would have bank accounts which can be 'translated' on the spot in 'local currency'.
Example with some simple figures: I have 100 euros on my bank account. Anywhere within the Euro-zone I can withdraw money from my bank; but I'll always get the local currency in cash. For instance. I'm in Germany (going rate: 1E = 2.1 RM) and withdraw 10E from my account. I receive 21RM in cash. I cross the border to France (going rate: 1E = 35F) and withdraw another 10E; I receive 350F in cash. When paying electronically, I can use my card in ALL nations of the Euro-zone; when paying cash, I pay in local currency.

Now, if I were to trade with a Chinese currency trader; I would be trading E for Renminbi. With an Indian trader, I'd be trading E for Rupee.


Is this clear? How bad is my understanding of currency economics? Fire away.[/spoiler]


As for the stability of the Euro-zone without Greece; it just might be strengthened technically, but the idea will have lost what credibility it had. However, the debts Greece would have to pay would have to be enormous. All Greek 'national' possessions will be sold off at auction to raise money to pay off the debts. China will cover it all, no doubt. Just another nation they buy. And Greece, well.. it has its symbolic value..
Would be an interesting thing. A nation going bankrupt. The example Greece sets would be the future of the United States. Looking forward to seeing how they resolve this.

[Cole]

Off Topic:
Confusing the EU with the Eurozone is a common error, but an error nonetheless. Get your definitions in order before blasting off at the speed of light. (pokémon reference: -1 rep)


I'd propose a meta-currency instead of one universal currency; the Euro as a 'common' currency, but without a 'cash form'. All EU currencies (Reichsmark, franc, etc..) would be 'tied' to this virtual currency, which would only be relevant for trading.
No one actually has this 'Euro' in their pockets, but when trading on the currencies market, you trade from Renminbi/whatever-crappy-currency to Euro. All citizens of the participating nations of the Euro-zone would have bank accounts which can be 'translated' on the spot in 'local currency'.
Example with some simple figures: I have 100 euros on my bank account. Anywhere within the Euro-zone I can withdraw money from my bank; but I'll always get the local currency in cash. For instance. I'm in Germany (going rate: 1E = 2.1 RM) and withdraw 10E from my account. I receive 21RM in cash. I cross the border to France (going rate: 1E = 35F) and withdraw another 10E; I receive 350F in cash. When paying electronically, I can use my card in ALL nations of the Euro-zone; when paying cash, I pay in local currency.

Now, if I were to trade with a Chinese currency trader; I would be trading E for Renminbi. With an Indian trader, I'd be trading E for Rupee.


Is this clear? How bad is my understanding of currency economics? Fire away.

I know the difference, maybe did a mistake into my post. EU= political alliance and Eurozone, well, that's the currency zone excluding nations like the UK, Sweden and Denmark.

There's one party in my country proposing something similar to what you proposed, but that would mean several things.

What I can think of quickly without thinking deeply about it and the macroeconomic issues:
All the minor problems that got solved with the Euro, yes they may be minor to many eyes, but still problems nonetheless, problems of conversion between nations, as you cannot use your money in other nations unless you withdraw once again, you now have to adapt to another currency in your own nation AND also to other nations' if you go there. As a tourist, that's quite a nightmare and the "hustlers" will make quite a nice profit out of it (nope it's not an urban legend, those hustlers really exist). Also, adapt once again to a new currency, I can see the hustlers getting quite a profit, not only with tourists but even with nation inhabitants. This would be quite complicated for the average person. I'm sure it wouldn't be fixed parity, but more likely fluctuating parities...ouch the headache in practice lol.


Also, I don't really see what would be the advantage(s) to do that? (same feeling I had when I read that party idea)
It's making things much more complicated than they are imo. That's the main problem with all those ideas of virtual/real currencies proposals.
Imagine: What's a Lira worth in Franc? I would have to think back to the Euro, think about the fluctuations of both currencies to have an idea if this product is overpriced or not.
And everyday, I would have to think about Euro-to-franc to think what something is really worth in my own country! To be everyday with a calculator and aware of the fluctuations rates to know what something is worth.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[Cole]

If your too stupid to handle currency changes and transfers then perhaps you ought to stay at home, but the rest of us shouldnt be punished because you or others cant get it.

How exactly do you manage when you travel outside the eurozone? God I'd hate to think how you might manage in the real world.

Theres a whole world out there you know full of lots of countries all using different currencies, learn to deal with it

Firstly, can you get off that very high horse please?
Secondly, I know pretty well there are different currencies in the world. But before you act like you're so intelligent and me so stupid, think for a second:
-UK currency didn't change back and forth, you don't have to face currency changes in your OWN country. When was the last time UK's currency changed?
-UK currency IS UK currency, when you check your bank account, when you withdraw and when you pay it's the same, when I will go to UK, I will think Euro to Pound, when you go to Eurozone, you think Pound to Euro. Don't even dare to insinuate I'm "too stupid" to convert Euro to Pound or Euro to Dollar . Not have to think what's Euro worth in Franc then what's Euro worth in Pounds (or in Franc).
Which is a different thing.

Be polite and provide valid arguments like you usually do, and it will be all good.

_________________________

I don't see though what's the advantage(s) to have again different currencies within the Eurozone...

[Kit-Fox]

Removed

[MEZZANINE]

Helping out friends ???? Just because a country is geographically close to you is doesnt mean they are friends, countries in the EU have a variety of lifestyles, values, political ideals, dominant religions, languages, resources, populations etc In fact they have very little in common apart from mutual trade which is why the original EEC was former between the economic powerhouses of Europe for trade, the monster it became now trying to unite and govern Europe is not what the UK voted to join in the 70s. We are not some communist superstate ( thats been tried and failed ) so why should a country that has money &/or resources support a country that does not if they do not share the same values ?

Of course I think of my country first, the things that effect my family & friends. For the UK and some others in the EU the EU costs far more than it will ever benefit, therefore it takes money out of my family & friends pockets. It also over rules my countries laws in an undemocratic way that I have no say in, the laws it tampers with or creates are supposedly for the benefit of the majority of the EU, often not to the benefit of me and mine.

Selfish ? YES

Pragmatic and realistic ? YES



The real question for me is why do UK politicians mostly support the EU when there is no good argument in it's favor for us. They even denied us a referendum because they knew the UK would vote against it and they no argument to convince us otherwise.

[Juliette]

Yo, people, FOCUS. Currencies? Not the topic of discussion.
Jim; instead of derailing the thread (did you intentionally fail to notice the use of BOTH a spoiler AND an off-topic tag?!), stick with the subject of the EU hypothetically crumbling when Greece leaves the Euro-zone.

[Ashu]

I will not trade my freedom for money or "stability". Burn EU, burn.

[Cole]

[spoiler]Off Topic:

Fance didnt have any different currencies either when they used the Franc, it was the Franc across all of France. Just like the DM was the only currency across Germany.

Yes, same as Pound is Pound. But you didn't change currency so you never had to face conversion issue in your own nation.

Unless you saying France & Germany etc etc (the eurozone nations) didnt exist as seperate nations then your argument falls down.

You misunderstood something I think...

All that is especially relevant when you recall that France & ghermany were the first to fully adopt the Euro for everything, you had nothing to worry about inside your own nation even during the transistion period which as A - Brief & B - Made easy by retaillers greedy for your cash.

I adapted to Euro quite well...your point?

Again it comes down to the fact you lot seem unable to handle currency changes, its not the fault of the rest of us, quit forcing us to stoop to the lowest common denominator

And UK handled currency changes when? I don't see why you feel soooo involved, nobody talks about changing Pound to anything. It would be me who would have involvement, you not the least, so don't play like you would be as you wouldn't![/spoiler]

Ah well, sorry that suggestion of yours attracted my attention.

[Kit-Fox]

Removed