Split from 'Go Yankees'

[The Xeno]

I said he wants to create a theocracy, he would love nothing better than to have prayer back in schools and to pull evolution out and have of the politicians christians who enforce christian morals on the population.

I suppose then, that we most not want Christian morals enforced:
(Murder, Adultery, and the other, nastier ones, witch burning and etc.)
Or will you still want us to draw upon religion to taint a pure scientific society with laws against theft and idol worship?

Thank goodness the ACLU sued my county so they took them down. Having the 10 commandments up is establishing a religion.

I'll agree with you there. Doesn't mean I feel that their removal is a good thing... but then I don't exactly view our founding documents as perfection.

[Come_Forth]

I do not believe that morals come from religion. I do not believe that anyone derives their morals from only the Bible. If people really believed some of these verses I would have been put to death for blasphemy yet people do not kill me because they obey logic instead of the Bible.

[The Xeno]

I do not believe that morals come from religion. I do not believe that anyone derives their morals from only the Bible. If people really believed some of these verses I would have been put to death for blasphemy yet people do not kill me because they obey logic instead of the Bible.

Logic is not a basis for morality, it is the essense of reason:
Something that even Kant had to ascirbe to a 'higher good'.

Logic itself is anarchy without a universal goal. A million different scientists might arrive at a million different temporal goals, and seek their execution.
For instance, one may determine that humanity is a blot upon nature, and that we must be extinguished. Logically, it then makes sense for him to seek mankind’s destruction.
Logic is a means, not a beginning, and not an end.

[Come_Forth]

People are selfish. Morality exist because people are selfish. It is in our best interests to treat others well. It is kind of like you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Of course there will be some rule breakers but that is why you have authority to help guide people on the path that will cause the greatest good for the greatest number. Logic can be flawed but then it is false logic. Human reasoning is the greatest power that we have not revelation.

We have debated this before because I posted verses about this and that saying that Americans do not base their morality off of the Bible so I will try to get back on topic

America has a problem when we have 14 % of our population who do not believe in God(s) and none of the politicians will admit to being an atheist because it is a stigma. For some reason we have this myth that America was founded to be a Christian nation but a close study of the founders will show otherwise


"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
That is from the Treaty of Tripoli 1797

[The Xeno]

Reposted: (this was originally meant to be the ending of my last post)
It takes so long to type my ramblings... I keep lagging

<selfedit>
This is getting off topic (in a good way I think) and I will split into an appropriate thread.

-----------------------
Accepting that temporal matters are the realm of the empirical, how can we possibly come to a universal goal with any meaning? At the end of the day, we would just be atoms, our thoughts and sense electricity, merely to change. What goal can there be? What morality?

Religion does possess something that cannot be encapsulated by science, it allows for a universal truth, and at the very least must be seen as a necessary part of society... else there can be no basis for law, except mindless oppression by the majority.


--------------------------

Onwards...

Of course there will be some rule breakers but that is why you have authority to help guide people on the path that will cause the greatest good for the greatest number.

What is this greatest good? We're atoms man!
Now, I am curious about your view of majority rule... as I imagine you see it differently than I do.

For some reason we have this myth that America was founded to be a Christian nation but a close study of the founders will show otherwise

You don't even need a close study of the men:
A quick perusing of our Declaration Of Independence and original constitution will show that to be correct. Let alone the infamous Tripoli treaty you quote.

Begining split...
And now going to bed.

[Come_Forth]

Would you treat people differently if you believed that they were only matter? Who cares we are made of we exist that is all that we should care about. I think that I value my life believing that I am only a vast collection of atoms because that means that I will die. Since I will die I only have this life to live so it makes this life so much more important. I plan to life to the fullest and to help as many people as I can. The here and now sucks as it is but if we work together we can improve life and end world hunger etc. I would say that it does not matter if you believe in God because he obviously is not helping us out (see sig) It is up to humans, hence I am a humanist.

The greatest good would be basic pleasure, what I mean by that is a place to sleep some food to eat and a chance to enjoy life. We are stuck in life as a team and we can get more done as a team than if we worked by ourselves that is why morality because we are selfish yet because we are selfish we treat people well.

I am a sucky writer as you can probably tell.........
I think I am going to bed as well I have Church tomorrow. I am an open-minded guy lol I do not want to put up straw men arguments so I have to learn what I do not believe.

[CrimsonFrost]

It is not that off-topic since bush's religious beliefs are ruining the US. He is ignoring the separation of church and state, and trying to convert the US into a theocracy. This is where I got those stats http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelli ... ligion.htm
It is common knowledge though that the majority in that group are not religious

An example of religious beliefs influencing policy would be Israel. The only reason the US supports Israel over Palestine is that there is a verse in the Bible where God says that He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel. If I was President when the USS Liberty was hit by Israel I would have blown Israel to bits. Why the hell did we let them get away with killing 34 US sailors?

No, it is going off topic. Thats why the topic was split. The topic was about about the US going to Iran, and split possible US wars in other countries. Your desire to make this "Bush's belief's" is your own desire, as for how "his belief's are ruining America" is up for debate. I can alreay see your vitrol filled response, but Christianity is literally the bedrock of American values and what our judicial system was based on. Take a basic government or Western history class if you think Im mistaken. I read over your link as well, I liked how they just beboped from poll to poll from the last 70 years or so. I also venture to say that I hate any polls. (Whether used by conservatives, liberals, Republicans or anyone else.) I did a class about polls too, and they are so easy to rig it's ridiculous. For example: I put in a poll that 75% of people polled recently in America are pro abortion. Thats a heck of a claim, huh? Now what if pressed later I admitted that it was 75% out of 100 people polled in Houston, TX? Now doesn't THAT change things a bit. 100 people in one city has spoken for the ENTIRE UNITED STATES. Give me a break. I do like how he kept moving around the polls to make it seem like only the stupid people believe in God. Please, last I checked Einstein even believed in God. (Although he didn't support a particular religion.) You can believe in God and not be religious. I know, because I believe in God and I'm not involved in religion.

Where on earth did you get that idea about Israel? Is this an assumption, or did you just read it on a webpage somewhere? Did it occur to you that Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East (At its inception, the ONLY one) that is a staunch ally of the US? Israel provides us with a friendly entry point into the Middle East, not to mention provides invaluable training against terrorists who want to kill us. Think critically, not just twisting things to a viewpoint you enjoy.

As for the USS Liberty incident, may I point out that it happened almost *40 YEARS AGO*?? Both countries governments contend it was an accident, which I would tend to believe as well. There are plenty of incidents that have happened with other vessels as well that I don't see you demanding justice over, like when the USS Greenville accidently destroyed a Japanese training ship with high school students on it, killing 10. Of course, that must be because of Christianity as well, silly me.

I do not believe that morals come from religion. I do not believe that anyone derives their morals from only the Bible. If people really believed some of these verses I would have been put to death for blasphemy yet people do not kill me because they obey logic instead of the Bible.

You can believe whatever you desire, but it doesn't change what is fact. The Judeo-Christian Bible was a major source of many laws in the United States, while children were regular brought to school to be taught that certain things are wrong and right. (Before going to a religious school became such a horrible thing.) You can be taught moral values that corresponds with religion and not be religious. Just because a person is not a Christian does not mean that they don't have a basic moral code derived from religiou, such as not murdering, stealing, cheating on your wife, etc. Logic has nothing to do with morality, again, I'm not sure where you got that. If someone hates you, and realizes that they will not get caught if you were killed, logic dictates that they would probably do it if they didn't have some type of moral code to stop them. Here would be an example from a Philosophy class I took regarding Morality; (Yet another I would suggest you take.) "If there was no God, and you could put on a cape that would make you completely omnipotent, would you only do good?" We're human, and without a moral code to keep our more devious desires in check, the world would be much more horrible then it already is. Being logical does not make a person moral.

People are selfish. Morality exist because people are selfish. It is in our best interests to treat others well. It is kind of like you scratch my back and I will scratch yours. Of course there will be some rule breakers but that is why you have authority to help guide people on the path that will cause the greatest good for the greatest number. Logic can be flawed but then it is false logic. Human reasoning is the greatest power that we have not revelation.

A well written sentence, although I would disagree. The phrase "morality exists because people are selfish" is dubious at best. Human reasoning and logic dictates that as long as we "don't get caught" we can do anything we can get away with. Morality, such as that derived from a religion contends that with an omnipotent God (that can punish you later) there is no "getting away with it" , thus people are much less likely to perpetrate the crime. So again I would venture to say that religion has played and continues to play a strong role in US law, and many other countries legal systems as well. (Whether for better or worse.)

We have debated this before because I posted verses about this and that saying that Americans do not base their morality off of the Bible so I will try to get back on topic

Post away, we have a new thread to talk about it in. The vast majority of American base their morality, knowingly or unknowingly on religious views. Even if some don't, American religion is based off of Christian values and religion, therefore the same people whom break the law tend to be held to the same standard regardless.

America has a problem when we have 14 % of our population who do not believe in God(s) and none of the politicians will admit to being an atheist because it is a stigma. For some reason we have this myth that America was founded to be a Christian nation but a close study of the founders will show otherwise

Why does "America have a problem?" lol! You say 86%, but the article you posted to me earlier says 90%. I don't think thats a problem, I think that means nearly the entire country disagree's with your belief's about God. In that same vein, I'd say that they don't agree with your thoughts that morality has nothing to do with the Bible. Of course if 90% of the US population believes so, then it makes sense that politicans would go the way of the majority of the voters, right? I'd like to see the close study your talking about. I've seen random quotes before that were supposed to show otherwise, but usually tended to be debunked or the person just never said it. (Or again, a small minority of the people. Not everyone had very strong religious belief's.)

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims] and as the said States [America] have never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
That is from the Treaty of Tripoli 1797

Yes it is, lol! You forgot, like the ACLU convienantly has, that the seperation of church and state was created because when the Puritans came from Europe they were worried about having the same problem again: The government overunning the their religious belief's, persecuting them, etc. They didn't want that to happen again, so they created the seperation of church and state. Of course a few hundred years later it has now been twisted from the state staying out of the church to the church staying out of the state. I disagree strongly as religion has a lot to offer people, whether they actually want to do something in a religious style or simply to give a different outlook on life.

You can disagree as much as you want regarding morality based on religion, etc, but I would point out yet again that atheists are in the minority in the US and will remain so. Someone claiming their belief as atheism is never looked upon in any favorable way, btw, I have never even met an atheist except over the Internet.

Would you treat people differently if you believed that they were only matter? Who cares we are made of we exist that is all that we should care about. I think that I value my life believing that I am only a vast collection of atoms because that means that I will die. Since I will die I only have this life to live so it makes this life so much more important. I plan to life to the fullest and to help as many people as I can. The here and now sucks as it is but if we work together we can improve life and end world hunger etc. I would say that it does not matter if you believe in God because he obviously is not helping us out (see sig) It is up to humans, hence I am a humanist.

The greatest good would be basic pleasure, what I mean by that is a place to sleep some food to eat and a chance to enjoy life. We are stuck in life as a team and we can get more done as a team than if we worked by ourselves that is why morality because we are selfish yet because we are selfish we treat people well.

I am a sucky writer as you can probably tell.........
I think I am going to bed as well I have Church tomorrow. I am an open-minded guy lol I do not want to put up straw men arguments so I have to learn what I do not believe.

Your free to believe what you desire, that's the beauty of this "flawed America." What you are saying is like a smattering of Communism, and look how well that faired for North Korea. "People will work together, follow the laws, etc" In North Korea, religion is outlawed and religion is brutally crushed. Those people don't look like the brightest cherries in the bush. Last I heard in other communist states that outlaw religion, things aren't so hot either like China. (Falun Gong anyone?) If you want to be an atheist, great. Go out and enjoy life, do whatever you have to do. When you cross the line and attacking the very institution that gave you the right to do and say so just makes you an idiot. (ie, despite the government being "run by Christians" , Muslims, Atheists, and others are freely allowed and even defended to say and do what they desire. Heck, even Nazi's get police protection when they march, heh

[Londo Mollari]

Regardless of faith the majority of religions teach good morals and ethics. It is how these ethics are interpreted by the majority of people and how they are enforced that is important. Currently murder is unacceptable. Two or three hundred years ago dueling was considered acceptable and even normal. It would be considered murder nowadays. Societys views (those held by the majority) will always affect the legality of a persons actions. When the constraints of society are removed however, morals are forgotten and we revert to our true nature. Humanity is greedy. Human nature dictates that we look after ourselves first and foremost. Our families and loved ones next. Then we try and protect our friends, usually because we can see some advantage to ourselves if we do so.

Would you treat people differently if you believed that they were only matter? Who cares we are made of we exist that is all that we should care about.

Do you / would you, treat a robot with Artificial Intelligence as an equal? Sure AI has not yet developed to the stage where we can create truely intelligent robots. Party because the very nature of intelligence is debatable. But will humans treat AI as there equals? They are mere matter, just pieces of metal. But they cannot die and are not truly alive. AI will advance to such a stage one day, when it does humanity is in for a shock and will have to reevaluate its position. This relates back to one of the oldest arguements against AI in the book. We were created by God. We have souls. Robots were created by man and have no souls. Therefore they can never be the same as us. But what about people with prosthetic limbs. If a person is born a human, but over time for whatever reason there entire body is replaced with bionic implants, how far do you go before you are more machine than man? Its all about society drawing a line saying this is right and acceptable and this is wrong and will not be tolerated.

It is also notable that human nature is actually designed to solve seemingly impossible questions with answers such as "God did it" etc. When humans were unable to explain something they attributed it to a divine being in order to explain it.


I take it that you 3 (Xeno, Come_forth and CrimsonFrost) are all americans? Correct me if i am mistaken. But here in the UK we have very bad problems with teenage pregnancies. The US doesn't have such a bad problem (statistically speaking, the USA being much bigger than the UK) because the majority of teenagers in the USA are strongly Christian and have taken vows not to have sex before marriage. In this example Christianity is good.

Personally i am atheist I don't like religion as it causes a great deal of suffering in the world today and will in future as in the past. It does have its good morals etc, but you don't need to be religious to be a "good" person. I also like to think that everything can be proved scientifically. Perhaps there is a god, who knows. He could be Gou'ald for all we know

[Come_Forth]

No, it is going off topic. Thats why the topic was split. The topic was about about the US going to Iran, and split possible US wars in other countries. Your desire to make this "Bush's belief's" is your own desire, as for how "his belief's are ruining America" is up for debate. I can alreay see your vitrol filled response, but Christianity is literally the bedrock of American values and what our judicial system was based on. Take a basic government or Western history class if you think Im mistaken. I read over your link as well, I liked how they just beboped from poll to poll from the last 70 years or so. I also venture to say that I hate any polls. (Whether used by conservatives, liberals, Republicans or anyone else.) I did a class about polls too, and they are so easy to rig it's ridiculous. For example: I put in a poll that 75% of people polled recently in America are pro abortion. Thats a heck of a claim, huh? Now what if pressed later I admitted that it was 75% out of 100 people polled in Houston, TX? Now doesn't THAT change things a bit. 100 people in one city has spoken for the ENTIRE UNITED STATES. Give me a break. I do like how he kept moving around the polls to make it seem like only the stupid people believe in God. Please, last I checked Einstein even believed in God. (Although he didn't support a particular religion.) You can believe in God and not be religious. I know, because I believe in God and I'm not involved in religion.

That link that I gave I believe is from a Christian site. It is true that poll after poll shows that the more education someone has the less likely they will believe in a personal God. Einstein believed in a vague notion of God like a Deist but He did not believe that this God was involved in human problems. Einstein was a Humanist so even if he believed in God it does not matter he put his trust in people.

Where on earth did you get that idea about Israel? Is this an assumption, or did you just read it on a webpage somewhere? Did it occur to you that Israel is one of the few countries in the Middle East (At its inception, the ONLY one) that is a staunch ally of the US? Israel provides us with a friendly entry point into the Middle East, not to mention provides invaluable training against terrorists who want to kill us. Think critically, not just twisting things to a viewpoint you enjoy.

Where? I got it from my History classes. I have also read some books by Noam Chomsky. Israel should not even exist. It is causing more problems than it is worth. Of course Israel likes us because in the Israeli/Arab war we gave the Israelis weapons to fight the Arabs (we wonder why they hate us ). The land does not belong to Israel. They are fighting over sand they both could just locate somewhere else but refuse to because the religions tied to the land

As for the USS Liberty incident, may I point out that it happened almost *40 YEARS AGO*?? Both countries governments contend it was an accident, which I would tend to believe as well. There are plenty of incidents that have happened with other vessels as well that I don't see you demanding justice over, like when the USS Greenville accidently destroyed a Japanese training ship with high school students on it, killing 10. Of course, that must be because of Christianity as well, silly me.

When the fishing boat was destroyed that was an accident and that boat did not have rockets fired at it for over an hour.

You can believe whatever you desire, but it doesn't change what is fact. The Judeo-Christian Bible was a major source of many laws in the United States, while children were regular brought to school to be taught that certain things are wrong and right. (Before going to a religious school became such a horrible thing.) You can be taught moral values that corresponds with religion and not be religious. Just because a person is not a Christian does not mean that they don't have a basic moral code derived from religiou, such as not murdering, stealing, cheating on your wife, etc. Logic has nothing to do with morality, again, I'm not sure where you got that. If someone hates you, and realizes that they will not get caught if you were killed, logic dictates that they would probably do it if they didn't have some type of moral code to stop them. Here would be an example from a Philosophy class I took regarding Morality; (Yet another I would suggest you take.) "If there was no God, and you could put on a cape that would make you completely omnipotent, would you only do good?" We're human, and without a moral code to keep our more devious desires in check, the world would be much more horrible then it already is. Being logical does not make a person moral.

I have taken philosophy and history classes and have not scored lower than an A. So what makes a person moral? I always think through my actions. Religion is supported by the government because they can scare people with hell if they do not obey the laws. We do not base our morality off of the Bible.

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.--Ex22.20:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.--Ex22:18

Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.--Ex31:14

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--Lev. 20:13

If a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.--Lev. 20:15 (poor animal hasn't it been through enough )

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the **Filtered**, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--Lev.21:9

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--Lev. 15:32-36

If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die.-- Num. 22:22

1 Timothy
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.--24:16

A well written sentence, although I would disagree. The phrase "morality exists because people are selfish" is dubious at best. Human reasoning and logic dictates that as long as we "don't get caught" we can do anything we can get away with. Morality, such as that derived from a religion contends that with an omnipotent God (that can punish you later) there is no "getting away with it" , thus people are much less likely to perpetrate the crime. So again I would venture to say that religion has played and continues to play a strong role in US law, and many other countries legal systems as well. (Whether for better or worse.)

The moral systems of every system and government have been pretty similar why chose Christianity over Greek mythology? The getting away with it argument is flawed because as Kant said if do it then why should someone else not do it? So if one person starts breaking the law there is a risk of anarchy.

Why does "America have a problem?" lol! You say 86%, but the article you posted to me earlier says 90%. I don't think thats a problem, I think that means nearly the entire country disagree's with your belief's about God. In that same vein, I'd say that they don't agree with your thoughts that morality has nothing to do with the Bible. Of course if 90% of the US population believes so, then it makes sense that politicans would go the way of the majority of the voters, right? I'd like to see the close study your talking about. I've seen random quotes before that were supposed to show otherwise, but usually tended to be debunked or the person just never said it. (Or again, a small minority of the people. Not everyone had very strong religious belief's.)

It is hard to tell how many atheists there are in America because it is a stigma. Most polls show between 7-15%. Some politicians can be elected while being Muslim because Atheists are hated unfairly. If you go on a Christian site they usually say 7% but a secular site will say 15%. Here is something from the census they have lots of cool stuff http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 7s0073.xls or this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States
I say we have a problem because politicians are lying about their religious beliefs.

Yes it is, lol! You forgot, like the ACLU convienantly has, that the seperation of church and state was created because when the Puritans came from Europe they were worried about having the same problem again: The government overunning the their religious belief's, persecuting them, etc. They didn't want that to happen again, so they created the seperation of church and state. Of course a few hundred years later it has now been twisted from the state staying out of the church to the church staying out of the state. I disagree strongly as religion has a lot to offer people, whether they actually want to do something in a religious style or simply to give a different outlook on life.

You can disagree as much as you want regarding morality based on religion, etc, but I would point out yet again that atheists are in the minority in the US and will remain so. Someone claiming their belief as atheism is never looked upon in any favorable way, btw, I have never even met an atheist except over the Internet.

I am sure that you have met many atheists they just do not want to admit it because we are treated like crap. America was not founded as Christian country and the government cannot establish a religion. I have freedom from religion just as you have freedom of religion.

Your free to believe what you desire, that's the beauty of this "flawed America." What you are saying is like a smattering of Communism, and look how well that faired for North Korea. "People will work together, follow the laws, etc" In North Korea, religion is outlawed and religion is brutally crushed. Those people don't look like the brightest cherries in the bush. Last I heard in other communist states that outlaw religion, things aren't so hot either like China. (Falun Gong anyone?) If you want to be an atheist, great. Go out and enjoy life, do whatever you have to do. When you cross the line and attacking the very institution that gave you the right to do and say so just makes you an idiot. (ie, despite the government being "run by Christians" , Muslims, Atheists, and others are freely allowed and even defended to say and do what they desire. Heck, even Nazi's get police protection when they march, heh

I do not believe in outlawing religion because that would be dogmatic, all I want is in atmosphere of free intellectualism and not to have religion put down my throat. The governments in those countries are merely a religion without a God.

The US doesn't have such a bad problem (statistically speaking, the USA being much bigger than the UK) because the majority of teenagers in the USA are strongly Christian and have taken vows not to have sex before marriage. In this example Christianity is good.

Maybe Americans are more likely to use birth control?


This is a good thread much better than the other religion threads at this same stage Now I must take a break from posting.

[The Xeno]

The US doesn't have such a bad problem (statistically speaking, the USA being much bigger than the UK) because the majority of teenagers in the USA are strongly Christian and have taken vows not to have sex before marriage. In this example Christianity is good.

But we are getting there. Junior high schooler’s are engaging in sex right and left, not to mention our seniors. Part of that arises from the fact that their ‘greatest good’ is just what Come_Forth has stipulated: pleasure of a temporal kind as they are not seeking a later one.
Again, I am not debating that humans are ultimately the anti-altruist. We do seek happiness, the difference arises when you seek the eternal or earthly kinds.

It is true that poll after poll shows that the more education someone has the less likely they will believe in a personal God.

Ever heard the old cliché, the smartest are the ones with the least common sense?

Where? I got it from my History classes. I have also read some books by Noam Chomsky. Israel should not even exist. It is causing more problems than it is worth.

Wait a minute, I thought we were going by ‘greatest good’, I.e. “The greatest good would be basic pleasure, what I mean by that is a place to sleep some food to eat and a chance to enjoy life.”
Surely you would say, that the average Israeli is much better off than the average Syrian or Palestinian? (doesn’t matter how they got that way, legit or illicit.)
If that’s the case, lets pull a Utopia and cheer Israel on as it reclaims wasted farmland from (relatively) indolent users. Surely it would be better for humanity on the whole?

Humanity is greedy. Human nature dictates that we look after ourselves first and foremost. Our families and loved ones next. Then we try and protect our friends, usually because we can see some advantage to ourselves if we do so.

qtf

I have taken philosophy and history classes and have not scored lower than an A. So what makes a person moral? I always think through my actions. Religion is supported by the government because they can scare people with hell if they do not obey the laws. We do not base our morality off of the Bible.

I would hate to use a ‘test’ to determine peoples morality. It’s easy to ‘think’ while using a pencil, much harder when your greedy little paws are near something you can getaway with. Since justice on earth is blind… oftentimes there is no reason not to take a chance. It won’t matter, you’ll die eventually anyways.

“Religion is supported by the government because they can scare people with hell if they do not obey the laws.”
Bingo… because those laws hold no real force, logical or otherwise, without a God.

You can disagree as much as you want regarding morality based on religion, etc, but I would point out yet again that atheists are in the minority in the US and will remain so. Someone claiming their belief as atheism is never looked upon in any favorable way, btw, I have never even met an atheist except over the Internet

No one likes a nihilist.

[Come_Forth]

I see nothing wrong with people having sex so who cares!

If religion was not blinding the middle east we would not be having all of these problems. I am not a nihilist, I do belief that the universe has no meaning but we as humans can find our own meanings. Christians look to the world to come I look to the here and now. You ignored all of those verses if morality generates from the Bible how come people do not obey those verses? If morality generates from the Bible how can other religions have morality? Do I believe in absolute morals? No. Humans have a general sense of morals but can be corrupted by ignorance or their environment.

[The Xeno]

You ignored all of those verses if morality generates from the Bible how come people do not obey those verses? If morality generates from the Bible how can other religions have morality?

I did not ignore them, I happen to fully agree with them. Remember, several of them have pertinence only to Jews relating to other Jews, even then I still see no problem. Especially when viewed from a nationalist point of view.

Now, of course other religions can have morality; do remember it is God and not the Bible that is origin of ‘Truth’ (i.e. morals and etc.)… It is quite possible for someone to arrive at pieces of Christianity and Christian morals, while not completely embracing it or ever seeing it.

The truth is the truth is the truth.
The question is, is it the Thruth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth?

Humans have a general sense of morals but can be corrupted by ignorance or their environment.

Why? What purpose do morals serve?
Evolution (as I understand it) is not an intelligent being.
It does not care if a human is a Trump or a John Doe, as long as a human is alive it’s doing its job. Thus, this complex structure of human morals makes no sense if we are basing it off of a survival of the fittest style of living.
Does a pride of Lion’s care if they steal meat from another pride?
Does an individual lion care?

It comes back to our purpose in life. If we have no universal truth, then all men's view of happiness are equal... those who want to murder and steal, and those who want to fast and play hermit.

I am not a nihilist, I do belief that the universe has no meaning but we as humans can find our own meanings.

It's a fine line between accepting everything as truth, and denying all truth.
And again, if humans must find our own meanings... we really have no basis for law.

I see nothing wrong with people having sex so who cares!

Those with AIDs in Africa care very much. Teen mothers, and the children of teen mothers care very much. The welfare system cares very much, and the high-schools care very much.
Sex isn't like eating candy... it takes a great deal of candy munching to get sick, not nearly as much effort to create problems with a free-love policy.

[/quote]

[CrimsonFrost]

Regardless of faith the majority of religions teach good morals and ethics. It is how these ethics are interpreted by the majority of people and how they are enforced that is important. Currently murder is unacceptable. Two or three hundred years ago dueling was considered acceptable and even normal. It would be considered murder nowadays. Societys views (those held by the majority) will always affect the legality of a persons actions. When the constraints of society are removed however, morals are forgotten and we revert to our true nature. Humanity is greedy. Human nature dictates that we look after ourselves first and foremost. Our families and loved ones next. Then we try and protect our friends, usually because we can see some advantage to ourselves if we do so.

I 100% agree with everything you say there Johnkeel. I wouldn't force anyone to believe in a religion, and neither should anyone else. However despite what some may think, religion does have a place in this world like many other institutions and it helps provide a moral standard for people to live by. (One that is supposedly enforced by an omnipotent being, and we can't hide from.)

It is also notable that human nature is actually designed to solve seemingly impossible questions with answers such as "God did it" etc. When humans were unable to explain something they attributed it to a divine being in order to explain it.

Yeah, we in the US call that a "cop out." (lol) When someone feels the urge to do something wrong and acts on that, it provides some sort of consolation to blame it on a good / evil deity to shift the blame.

I take it that you 3 (Xeno, Come_forth and CrimsonFrost) are all americans? Correct me if i am mistaken. But here in the UK we have very bad problems with teenage pregnancies. The US doesn't have such a bad problem (statistically speaking, the USA being much bigger than the UK) because the majority of teenagers in the USA are strongly Christian and have taken vows not to have sex before marriage. In this example Christianity is good.

I'm American, I think Xeno is as well. Of course you are right, but for some people giving religion any type of brownie points is like swallowing snake venom.

Personally i am atheist I don't like religion as it causes a great deal of suffering in the world today and will in future as in the past. It does have its good morals etc, but you don't need to be religious to be a "good" person. I also like to think that everything can be proved scientifically. Perhaps there is a god, who knows. He could be Gou'ald for all we know

Again, I totally agree with what you said. My father pushed his religious views on me really hard, and to this day it still pisses me off. I do believe in God, and certain biblical things, but religion has helped give man a reason to do a lot of good things in the world as well as evil. Of course if someone else is atheist, no worries. Freedom of speech rocks, eh? (I've gotten into some interesting conversations with atheists about the existance of God, etc.

That link that I gave I believe is from a Christian site.

Are you sure about that, or did you look more through the site? Well, I took the liberty of doing it and found some of the other articles from it. Allow me to put some of the other site names from there:

BibleSexQuiz.files
Christian Phallism files
Gay Jesus files
gayjesus.files
genitals files
Incestous Ancestry of Jesus.files
Jesus Sexuality.files
NoJesus.files
Prophecies Imaginary and Unfulfilled files/
Religious Atrocities.files
Sex in God's Word files
Some Christian arguments and why they don't work files/

And so on, and so forth. That doesn't look like a very Christian site to me. http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/

It is true that poll after poll shows that the more education someone has the less likely they will believe in a personal God.

What polls? Again, all the polls I see are really silly for the most part as for reasons I already stated. It's ridiculous to say that out of 1400 students polled in a single college in 1967 reflects the views of our time.. Or 158 people from 1980? You have got to be kidding me, talk about biased. (lol) Read my post about polls again. (I did a paper awhile back on polls, and I really hate them.)

Einstein believed in a vague notion of God like a Deist but He did not believe that this God was involved in human problems.

True, but that doesn't detract from my earlier argument which is despite your polls one of the most intelligent people of our time believed in God. (I didn't say a traditional God, or God of the Christians, Muslims, or any other. You yourself just said he belived in a God.

Einstein was a Humanist so even if he believed in God it does not matter he put his trust in people.

Again, my ealier point was that despite that site's ridiculous polls, there are a wide variety of intelligent people that believe in a God.

Where? I got it from my History classes. I have also read some books by Noam Chomsky. Israel should not even exist. It is causing more problems than it is worth. Of course Israel likes us because in the Israeli/Arab war we gave the Israelis weapons to fight the Arabs (we wonder why they hate us ). The land does not belong to Israel. They are fighting over sand they both could just locate somewhere else but refuse to because the religions tied to the land

Oh great, Noam Chomsky. He only writes books denigerating just about every single thing that makes America great. Not to mention you always see his views being espoused by Anarchists, Socialists, and Communists. I hope your not the typical atheist, otherwise I can see why 90% of Americans have such a distaste. <rolls eyes> I'd like to hear where you went to school if you got your views from history classes. Last I checked, History classes don't teach you things like, "The only reason the US supports Israel over Palestine is that there is a verse in the Bible where God says that He will bless those who bless Israel and curse those who curse Israel." Israel has been around only since about 1948. Which type history class did you take? Of course Israel likes us because Israel has been fighting against nearly the entire Middle East since it has been born. It is your *opinion* that the land does not belong to Israel, the Jews have been villified since I don't know when. Are you going to jump on the Iranian presidents bandwagon and start saying there was no Holocaust as well? You also skipped over my point that Israel is the *O N L Y* country in the Middle East that has been a staunch ally, and that is the reason why we keep giving them support. Try your hand at politics for a change instead of history.

When the fishing boat was destroyed that was an accident and that boat did not have rockets fired at it for over an hour.

I think I'm going to cut off this conversation in a bit, you really sound like not the brightest. The military DOES make mistakes. I would know, because I have been in the military almost 7 years and am still going. That was over FORTY YEARS AGO. Technology was much worse then it is now, and it is possible for a country to make a mistake and attack someone. Remember the whole "staunch ally" thing? You really think that with all the support we give Israel, support you admitted already, that Israel would launch an assault on us? Use some critical thinking!!! Or at least some common sense.

I have taken philosophy and history classes and have not scored lower than an A.

People whom really have done as you say don't feel the need to say so. They defend their views with reason and logic, not by starting off and saying the grades in their classes.

So what makes a person moral? I always think through my actions. Religion is supported by the government because they can scare people with hell if they do not obey the laws. We do not base our morality off of the Bible.

That is ridiculous. Morality governs what a person does, BEFORE they do it. If I kill someone, then that is of course considered bad by logic. If I have a sense of morality, then I never complete said bad deed. I'm not "scared by hell" and am not apart of any religion, yet, it has been proven time and again that religion has played a strong part in the building block of a moral / ethical code and world-wide legal systems. Ask Sgt. Johnkeel, he is an atheist as well.

He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.--Ex22.20:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.--Ex22:18

Ye shall keep the sabbath ... every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.--Ex31:14

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.--Lev. 20:13

If a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.--Lev. 20:15 (poor animal hasn't it been through enough )

And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the nightwalker, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.--Lev.21:9

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.--Lev. 15:32-36

If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die.-- Num. 22:22

1 Timothy
2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety
He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.--24:16

You missed the part where I said "a major source of" , not the sole used. If you read some New Testament stuff you would read about the, "Old things being put away" when Jesus died. Not to mention that things in America have changed during the course of history, some for better some for worse. Just because you sifted through a huge book and cherry picked a few verses does not mean that our legal and government system is not based in part on the Judeo-Christian Bible. In fact, you are apart of the minority that believes that way. Heck, even the people in the Middle East and Europe consider us a "Christian nation."

The moral systems of every system and government have been pretty similar why chose Christianity over Greek mythology? The getting away with it argument is flawed because as Kant said if do it then why should someone else not do it? So if one person starts breaking the law there is a risk of anarchy.

They are not similar at all. Again, I don't believe you have ever taken any classes. Or just enough to get your mind slugging along. There is a big difference between the government and systems of the US, Canada, Germany, Iran, and virtually any other country. Why don't you tell me some of the other capitalist democracies there are out there? Or other nations that are told they are considered "Christian nations?" As for why we should choose Christianity, why don't you ask the forefathers of the United States whom themselves were Christians? Last I checked they made a good choice in what they based our nation on, because here we still are, debating whether we are apart of a national government / legal system based on religious views. Such irony, isn't it? Btw, I think you just argued my point regarding Kant. If there was never a religion in the world, then why not just do it if you won't get caught? If I'm 13 and want some money, what's keeping me from stealing it? Because I'm worried about national anarchy? I hate to say it, but people don't care about the rest of the world. Sometimes they don't even care about their own nation, because they view it as "I'm only a small cog, if I do one bad thing it won't matter." With no religions, people would essentially run amok and do whatever the hell they want. Which sounds great until people are looting your house, killing and raping your family members, and killing you.

It is hard to tell how many atheists there are in America because it is a stigma. Most polls show between 7-15%. Some politicians can be elected while being Muslim because Atheists are hated unfairly. If you go on a Christian site they usually say 7% but a secular site will say 15%. Here is something from the census they have lots of cool stuff http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 7s0073.xls or this site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_i ... ted_States
I say we have a problem because politicians are lying about their religious beliefs.

That would be the first thing you say that I agree with. Yes, there are I'm sure plenty of politicans that lie about their religious belief's, which is wrong. Even 85% of the population is an overwhelming majority of the people in this country. I seriously doubt I will see the day that an atheist is every elected into political power because of the same reason people people hate Michael Newdow: Our nation and government, plus our society in general is based on Judeo-Christan values. Like it or not. I doubt that 85% of the country is active Christians, however, I can say that most people do believe in God, and they definiately don't like atheistic belief's. In fact, if you talked to the everyday person, most Americans put atheism up with Nazism. Maybe it's because you throw polls at us which say that those who believe in God generally tend to be stupid.

I am sure that you have met many atheists they just do not want to admit it because we are treated like crap. America was not founded as Christian country and the government cannot establish a religion. I have freedom from religion just as you have freedom of religion.

I don't debate one minute that you have that right. I love my country, and I love the people for better or for worse. Everyone has a right to believe in their religion or lack therof, even people I disagree with. (Muslims, Atheists, anyone else.) Yes, atheists are treated like crap. Are you killed for espousing your belief's / reasoning's? No. Villified? Perhaps. Although there is a freedom of speech, there is also the consequences you have to deal with from exercising that freedom of speech. If I go out screaming I'm a rapist and I love it, I 100% have the right to do that. However If I get the living crap kicked out of me while in jail for it, big surprise there right? The only reason I believe that atheists are so villified in the United States is because is because despite your views, the US IS based on the Judeo-Christan Bible which naturally puts the large majority of us at odds with atheism. That simply will not change. (The same goes in quite a few other countries that espouse strong religious values, such as Islamic countries and other countries based on Christianity.) That is simply the way the world is, and you have got to move on. If I move to a Muslim country and start espousing Christian views, I know full well what will happen. Or going to China and pushing non-sanctioned religious views. The countries that I have seen that have no religion tend to really suck.. ie China, North Korea, Russia.. Mostly communist/socialist states.. Hmm, is there some kinda connection there?

I do not believe in outlawing religion because that would be dogmatic, all I want is in atmosphere of free intellectualism and not to have religion put down my throat. The governments in those countries are merely a religion without a God.

I hate to try to explain the ways of the world, but if you are in country, state, province, or society where there is a social norm and you try to break that social norm, you will typically be violently reacted against. Again, I don't advocate anyone shoving religon down someones throat. It happened to me by my father when I was younger and I still remember how much it pissed me off.

Maybe Americans are more likely to use birth control?

Why not pull up another poll for us?

This is a good thread much better than the other religion threads at this same stage Now I must take a break from posting.

Indeed. I may not agree with the large majority of what you say, but it is good to exercise the brain a bit.

[Gatedialer]

Of course our Laws are not based directly on religion. They are based on British/French laws which in turn were based on Christianity.

The God that is in In God We Trust and Under God is just meaning any god. Besides, get over it if its in there.

And don't try to call me a right wing religious nut, I'm mostly atheist now, but still hold the values and such from Christianity, except for the stupid ones.

[Londo Mollari]

hmmm...well lets see, i am fully aware of the fact that this thread could easily balloon in size, as we argue and counter argue about this topic for a long time and to be honest i find it an interesting insight into the thoughts and mindsets of different people.

I hope we can all agree that the majority of religions teach good ethics and moral values. Terrorism and violence comes as a result of an individuals interpretation of these teachings. If a person seeks to commit a crime then they will undoubtably do so. Regardless of the incentive.

If a man walks up to you in the street and punches you in the face. Why should it be treated as any worse a crime if you are coloured or of a differnent religious or social group to them? If the crime would have occured regardless of faith or colour then it is not a racist or prejudiced attack.

There were two televisions programs recently that i unfortunately was unable to see. One explored the possibility that people could be born "evil" such as Adolf Hitler. The other looked at the possibility of humanity achieving immortality. Both such topics raise interesting points. If man is born "evil" then how can he be guilty of sin as he cannot help but act the way he does. If we could detect "evil" in an unborn child, should they be allowed to be born? Would a human becoming immortal put them on par with god?