2008 South Ossetia War

[Brdavs]

Oh ye, and saakashivili on CNN is super objective heh...

The truth is somewhere in between.


As far as abkhasia goes... abkhasian troops are now attacking georgian troops in abkhasia. Troops that by the ceasefire agreement of 94 should have been withdrawn, ineed there is a UN mission there tho observe the (nonexistant) withdrawl. Now that Russians have softened them up and cut their supply lines the abkhazians are trying to push them out themselves.

[keemik]

Oh ye, and saakashivili on CNN is super objective heh...

I didn't say that
I lost my fate in CNN long time ago. And Georgian president overstate some things because he probably think its good for the country.

[Thriller]

Lol Thriller you`re beyond help.

Your central thesis was that Russia is doing this on a back of a depression to deter the attention from internal problems with standard and government popularity. When it has been shown that Russia and its average citizen have been on a gradual to steep rise for close to a decade and that Putind and Medvedev enjoy 80% support (bot things US & Bush can only dream about at this point) you change tune by pointing out its no loner as influentual as the Soviet union (lol, as if the US is still as influential today as it was then), that they`re dependant on oil exports (well duh, we`re dependant on oil imports, its called "world economy". We`re just as screwed by not buying russian oil as they would be by not selling it lol) etc.

But hey think what you will lol. Fact of the matter is evident (for those that are willing to take the starspangled blinders off): China and Russia are in the big leagues to stay again and that it`s not a matter of "if" but of "when" till they both need to be treated as fullfedged equals on the floors of geostrategical politics, which has been a domain of the West for the past few decades. The sooner we come to grips whith that the better off we will be. They largly have us by the marbles allready and they know it. This georgia affair is but a case in point.







On topic:
Looks like the Russians blew up every piece of georgian military hardware bigger than a jeep and have called a hault to their military operations after establishing a buffer zone...

Looks like a sound victory for the Russians here... Relativly poor georgia that dumped insane amounts of GDP into mainly western weapons lost the majority of the investment, they secured the brakeaway regions for the forseeable future and forced the international community to finally resolve the issue. Not to mention sticking it to NATO, shaterring any hopes Georgia had of entering NATO in the forseeable future and showing any pro american regiemes croping up in their neighborhood that they`ll get stood up by the west (as per usual) when push comes to shove, since there is no way in hell washington/brusels will want to tango with moscow for places like tblisi when they need the Russians happy and on "their side" more for things like Iran heh... Even if it has the only russian independant oil pipeline to Europe. And the Russians have signaled a change in their external policy that wont include bending over any more, so the west is more likely to handle them whith gloves from now on.


One more for urogard heh:

No retard, i said it makes more sense then the US backing Georgia.... (you take everything out of context). But Russians economic woes are the reason for this war.(look up Georgian oil pipeline). The rise in SL is not steep either and the benefits are being mostly enjoyed by only the wealthy. Look at the entire demographic especially how the rich are getting even richer and how the middle class is disappearing. ("duh... just like in the US right"...... wrong retard).The numbers your getting coming out of Russia about 80% approval rating are a lie. Don't believe me? GO look up china's approval rating or Zimbabwe's(wear the president won with only 30% actual approval). These countries have a long history of lying to the international community about state affairs and are notorious for fudging the numbers. Don't believe me again? look up Chernobyl. ("DUh .... The US lies all the time as well though". WTH does that matter we are talking about Russia). They definitely do not have the US by the marbles( i am not a US citizen and all you ad hominid arguments may work on the ignorant but not with me, stereotypes are scapegoats for the weak minded). IF the US, Russian and Chinese standing armies were to engage in combat right now. The US would control the theater on very first day, and would obliterate both armies in about 2 months (it would then transition into gorilla war if the us risked occupation) .... The US spend almost 10 times on their military as china and Russia combined. AND IS FAR SUPERIOR, and any delusions to the contrary are fantasy.

IF you respond again with THE US DOES IT TOO!! argument. I will assume you are probably 10

[urogard]

You know people i'm joining brdavs on this one, thriller is beyond help mostly cos he still preaches his delusions of total US supremacy in spite of the evidence presented to him and the vast information available on the internet.


And small sidenote: Thriller at least you agree with us that every country in the world without exceptions lies like mad about everything if it can bring them any sort of advantage.

And it's also not like the US would always disclose everything that is not even on the level of strategic secrets, such as their removal of ballistic missiles from turkey as part of the deal with the SU that they would remove their nuclear arsenal from cuba.

PS: Yes in a war between China+Russia vs USA the usa would control the theatre from day one, but only in case under theater you don't mean all regions as a whole but some ass-of-the-world desert which is of no strategic importance and completely useless so neither russians nor the chinese will bother going there.
Otherwise you can bet your ass that the US military industrial complex will, after getting as much money from the USA government for their overpriced pieces of garbage, immediately go over to the russians and chinese and strike a deal with them so as to try and save as many assets of theirs as possible.
See, this is where modern capitalism fails, it's just "everyone for himself-i'll only help you if i can make profit out of it".

You know as common knowledge reminds everyone: "The capitalist will sell you the rope you will hang him with if he can make a buck with that trade"

[Demeisen]

it would be refreshing to have links to credible news sources instead of youtube clips. i dont watch the clips. id prefer to read something coming from a respectable origin than watch a clip made by some retard.

You know people i'm joining brdavs on this one, thriller is beyond help mostly cos he still preaches his delusions of total US supremacy in spite of the evidence presented to him and the vast information available on the internet.

dude you are the one who is deluded. if you search the internet to find out is russia is a match for the us you will find they are not. their military is accepted to be the best. their economy the biggest. their cultural influence the greatest. if a power isnt the match of a superpower they are not themselves a superpower.

nato has the ability to project power. how many carrier fleets does russia have. . . anywhere a war is fought nato will have the advantage of these floating bases from which to strike.

Otherwise you can bet your ass that the US military industrial complex will, after getting as much money from the USA government for their overpriced pieces of garbage

you must live in a different world from me. in your world perhaps state of the art hardware and good training are 'garbage.' im sure having a better trained army with superior equipment puts the usa at a massive disadvantage in this fantasy land.

You know as common knowledge reminds everyone: "The capitalist will sell you the rope you will hang him with if he can make a buck with that trade"

its not 'common knowledge' its a saying used by anti-capitalists. your views and judgement are obviously skewed in favour of russia.

[[KMA]Avenger]

hmmm...

everyone is moving so fast here that they wouldn't see a tank if they passed it by...

you are all forgetting something, if a war broke out on such a scale where all the powers in the world would start taking sides it would result in a nuclear war and i don't care how well a soldier is trained or what equipment he has, he will fry as quick as me or any of you.

and please can someone tell me what the hell good a fleet of ships is if a nuke dropped in the middle of it!

[Thriller]

I was talking about a hypothetical situation in which they all three armies fought each other on some neutral battle ground. Its no secret a war evolving those three countries would also get the entire G8 involved as well as many other countries. Think more along the lines of a war game and not Real World. 3 countries, no nukes, last one left standing wins.

*weird i spelled involved(when i got to edit thats what it says) right when i wrote it but for some reason it puts evolved.

[[KMA]Avenger]

gotcha, but the events unfolding are so serious i don't think a hypothetical situation should be used to explain any of this...

anyways, i think many here don't take EVERYTHING into consideration...

1) McCain wins the presidency (and he has said publicly) will bring in a draft and go to war with Iran which could and most likely will-draw in other nations to that conflict.

2) Obama wins and as he puts it when remarking about afghanistan and iran..."nothing is off the table".

3) this conflict escalates and everyone finds out to there horror that Russia does not mess around and is much stronger than we have been led to believe because for the past 10 years they have had an economy which is booming (look at how many billionaires have come out of Russia in the past few years and are now busy buying up football clubs and what not) while the rest in the west have seen whole industry's wiped off and exported to other nations creating holes in our economy by having allot more people unemployed and on the breadline.

4) many people joining the armed forces now are simply there because they have no prospects and promise of being taught new skills is the only way to survive and get on with there life...whats wrong with that picture.

5) Russia because of its economic surplus can afford to train a professional army where as armed forces in the west now require that mercs and foreigners are used to supplement their forces against populations who only have ak47's, hand guns and rocks.

6) the logistics that would be involved in such a venture would be mind boggling to say the least.


my conclusions:

if American and UK armed forces are all mighty why cant they quell unrest by a bunch of rag tags in Iraq and Afghanistan?

why did American backed Georgian forces get their backsides handed to them?

and if Iran truly poses so much threat why haven't they been crushed already?

no one is denying Americas technical sophistication but allot of people are over looking Russian sophistication, ingenuity backed up by a healthy economy and a MASSIVE population which would all fight as they have proved in the past .

in any case, lets say america with or without its allies, invades Russia, whats gonna happen?

the Russians will use the same strategy thats worked for them since their war with Napoleon, they will withdraw into the interior buying time by sacrificing whole army's till winter sets in and everyone gets stuck in the ice and their machines freeze up then the Russians finally counter attack and everyone gets the same lesson that was taught to Napoleon and Hitler.


in any event, anyone wishing to see conflict between Russian and western forces must be out of their mind!

[urogard]

And what do we learn from that?

Don't try to invade russia, just don't. There are no buts to that.

[[KMA]Avenger]

1 more thing we have all over looked.

Russians are not stupid, for the past few years allot of the old soviet satellites are now friendly with the west and have secret American and black ops bases, you think Russia being surrounded hasn't gone unnoticed?

Russia's response to this conflict is as much a warning as it is a response.

[Brdavs]

sweet jesus, where to start.



Thriller, for Christs sake, look at the american congresionall report figures. Ever since putinm wrestled power from the oligarhs an average Russian citizen has ben 10% better of per year. Infact, the main grudge West has against putin is how he cleared up the oligarhs that were getting obsenely rich while russia was fallin apart lol! Which combined to, after the corrupt an incompetant leadership (with dubious ties) of the 90s, make Putin and "his" circle EXTREMELY popular. Thats a fact of life man. Why would that be so hard to understand or "fabricated"? Why in gods name? Cos they said on the telly russia is not 100% democratic ergo it must be fabricated Georgia/North korea style lol?

As to having ppl by the balls... Europe imports nearly 50% of its oil & gas from Russia. All of the pipelines go via russian soil. The ONE that doesnt passes Georgia. Funny eh?
Wahts next, "we`re not really *that* dependant on oil" lol?

btw repeatedly calling me a retard just highlights how feable your arguments really are lol


As far as military supremacy in an all out conflict goes, the argument is RETARDED since Russia is a NUCLEAR SUPERPOWER ffs. You lads need to lay off the sauce and the Red Alert series, seriously. There will NEVER be a direct war (other than a war of whining as in the case of Georgia) between China Russia and US. Proxy wars are a different matter, but highly unlikely if NATO learns form the Georgian example since Russa is not expansionistic - it doestn have to be, its sitting on oilbarrels while we have to secure them.

BUT, for arguments sake, the US and NATO have specialised for the so called network centrific warfare, a type of fast, mobile warfare with complete dominance on the information battlefield rellying heavily on sensitive information systems. Works a treat against 3rd world countries we usually engage but that (according to pentagons own admission) is vonulabre agaisnt foes with sufisticated and effective countermeasures intended to disrupt said information structure.
You think it was a coincidance the Chinese were blasting satelites from orbit last year lol? Think again. What are you gonna do "mr.cruise missle", when the GPS system gets "blown up" in the target area heh?
There is no disputing US dumps a lot of money into its military, but for combat concepts NOT primarily designed for all out war with other superpowers but for fast intervention in their interest zones that have 50 year old equipment at best.
The NATO trained and equiped army of georgia got swept away in the last couple of days so I guess the russkies arent totally incompetant either.
And $$$ is no guarantee either... Dont discount russian enginuity it was said. And indeed, look at sytems like s-400 blasting the money pit that is the patriot out of the water. Time and time again history has proven than when push comes to shove, simple effective and reliable solutions tend to win the day.








Edit:
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/ ... #more27684


Here is an iteresting blog with the "other perspective" on things, including the ossetian war.

Granted, in places it rivales good old US paranoia and "confidance" but there are some dynamite points about the rise of "Putins KGB" to power and the general feeling of being backed into a corner an average Russian appears to be having.

Bit of a read but I`d recommend. Less demonizing more understanding peeps.

[urogard]

Less demonizing more understanding peeps.

I think the smartest comment of this whole thread

[Thriller]

sweet jesus, where to start.



Thriller, for Christs sake, look at the american congresionall report figures. Ever since putinm wrestled power from the oligarhs an average Russian citizen has ben 10% better of per year. Infact, the main grudge West has against putin is how he cleared up the oligarhs that were getting obsenely rich while russia was fallin apart lol! Which combined to, after the corrupt an incompetant leadership (with dubious ties) of the 90s, make Putin and "his" circle EXTREMELY popular. Thats a fact of life man. Why would that be so hard to understand or "fabricated"? Why in gods name? Cos they said on the telly russia is not 100% democratic ergo it must be fabricated Georgia/North korea style lol?

As to having ppl by the balls... Europe imports nearly 50% of its oil & gas from Russia. All of the pipelines go via russian soil. The ONE that doesnt passes Georgia. Funny eh?
Wahts next, "we`re not really *that* dependant on oil" lol?

btw repeatedly calling me a retard just highlights how feable your arguments really are lol


As far as military supremacy in an all out conflict goes, the argument is RETARDED since Russia is a NUCLEAR SUPERPOWER ffs. You lads need to lay off the sauce and the Red Alert series, seriously. There will NEVER be a direct war (other than a war of whining as in the case of Georgia) between China Russia and US. Proxy wars are a different matter, but highly unlikely if NATO learns form the Georgian example since Russa is not expansionistic - it doestn have to be, its sitting on oilbarrels while we have to secure them.

BUT, for arguments sake, the US and NATO have specialised for the so called network centrific warfare, a type of fast, mobile warfare with complete dominance on the information battlefield rellying heavily on sensitive information systems. Works a treat against 3rd world countries we usually engage but that (according to pentagons own admission) is vonulabre agaisnt foes with sufisticated and effective countermeasures intended to disrupt said information structure.
You think it was a coincidance the Chinese were blasting satelites from orbit last year lol? Think again. What are you gonna do "mr.cruise missle", when the GPS system gets "blown up" in the target area heh?
There is no disputing US dumps a lot of money into its military, but for combat concepts NOT primarily designed for all out war with other superpowers but for fast intervention in their interest zones that have 50 year old equipment at best.
The NATO trained and equiped army of georgia got swept away in the last couple of days so I guess the russkies arent totally incompetant either.
And $$$ is no guarantee either... Dont discount russian enginuity it was said. And indeed, look at sytems like s-400 blasting the money pit that is the patriot out of the water. Time and time again history has proven than when push comes to shove, simple effective and reliable solutions tend to win the day.








Edit:
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/ ... #more27684


Here is an iteresting blog with the "other perspective" on things, including the ossetian war.

Granted, in places it rivales good old US paranoia and "confidance" but there are some dynamite points about the rise of "Putins KGB" to power and the general feeling of being backed into a corner an average Russian appears to be having.

Bit of a read but I`d recommend. Less demonizing more understanding peeps.

NO working pipeline passes through Georgia yet. They had planed to build one to bypass Russia with NATO backing. That is why i believe the Russians were so eager to rush in and fight instead of seeking a diplomatic solution. Yes their economy is getting better mostly do to the high price of oil nowadays but that means very little in long run. They still have a lot of work to do. Take a trip through Russia you will see lots of abandon buildings(not just houses, I'm talking hospitals, schools, banks. ie important infrastructures) roads in disrepair and ghettos where thriving communities were in place. The change over from the communist planning system to the capitalist one, has been a slow painful process for them and has left them very diminished from what they once were. (China has way more going for them right now)

here is a couple quotes from an issue i own of National Geographic

Most of Russia’s economic activity is centered in Moscow, where a sizable middle class has emerged. Yet vibrant businesses also have taken root in many other cities, including Novosibirsk, Nizhniy Novgorod, St. Petersburg, Samara, and Yekaterinburg. Often the most successful enterprises are in spheres of activity that scarcely existed in the Soviet Union, such as computer software, sophisticated food processing and packaging, restaurants, and advertising. Ironically, the collapse of the ruble in 1998—which made imports prohibitively expensive—boosted domestic production. That increase, coupled with higher prices for Russian oil and gas, has at last halted the country’s economic slide; the economy grew by 5 percent in 1999 and by 8 percent in 2000.


An estimated 20 million of Russia’s 145 million people live below the official poverty line of $31 a person a month. Tax evasion is epidemic, and an estimated 25 to 40 percent of the economy is conducted underground. And every year a tiny layer of super rich Russians fearful of general instability and a shaky banking system, ships an estimated 20 to 25 billion dollars out of the country to foreign banks, much of it from the sale of Russia’s abundant natural resources.


Now the first quote sounds like everything is dandy and Russia is doing amazing. But when you put into CONTEXT. (This needs to be highlighted for you) and look how the money is being stratified through the population you see that the 10 percent really doesn't account for much when 20 million of your people live below the world poverty line!!! And your middle class only earns 100$ a month USD.

You are right though that fancy equipment doesn't replace excellent training but lucky for the US and Europe. They have the best trained military's in the world (out doing the russians in that category as well). SO the US has better equipment, better trained personal and a larger economic pool to draw from..... This is all fact Bvrdass:)

And are you going to honestly say that you take the Russians governments approval rating (this 90% percent number was issued by their government and has not been confirmed by secondary sources) at face value and fact. IF that is the case, then you must also accept "my spoon fed pro American agenda conjecture" but then whats with all the American bashing? I think its because you biased against the US,

When you hold a bias makes finding the truth impossible. But a smart guy like you should know that.

"Take your blindfold off and be prepared to change even your core beliefs because that is the sacrifice the truth seeker must make" One of professors fed me that line; i thought it was pretty good so i decided to share.

[S0lid Snake]

Sorry if this information isn't new.

Russia Orders ‘Destruction’ of US Naval Armada In Persian Gulf:-

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1124.htm

The Red army is p***ed, and they are out for blood.

They have also moved medium range ballistic missiles into South Ossetian, opening up a nuclear strike option for god knows what reason:-

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-1056-0-3-3--.html

This conflict is set to expand exponentially.

YIKES!!!!

Well done Georgia, America, UK, France & Israel you've managed to start WWIII.

If I get drafted, the first bullet I fire will be to the head of my commanding officer.

[Thriller]

Sorry if this information isn't new.

Russia Orders ‘Destruction’ of US Naval Armada In Persian Gulf:-

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1124.htm

The Red army is p***ed, and they are out for blood.

They have also moved medium range ballistic missiles into South Ossetian, opening up a nuclear strike option for god knows what reason:-

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-1056-0-3-3--.html

This conflict is set to expand exponentially.

YIKES!!!!




Well done Georgia, America, UK, France & Israel you've managed to start WWIII.

If I get drafted, the first bullet I fire will be to the head of my commanding officer.

PLz find a reputable source if your going to make a claim like that. Because there are no sources In the "news" article you showed. ie. seems to be made up or exaggerated.