2008 South Ossetia War

[[KMA]Avenger]

jim, what people want most is accountability, take Tony Blair, Gordon Brown GWB and **Filtered** Cheney as an example, right before the war in iraq there was a massive demonstration in london, a MASSIVE amount of people demonstrated that they didn't want england to go into this war and yet the government ignored the people and supported GWB in the illegal war...that means there is no accountability to the people and that the peoples opinion doesn't matter.

to date no evidence has been supplied to validate this illegal and internationally unlawful war, and a HUGE amount of people on both sides have been killed as a result...

who is going to answer for this?

at the moment we have a democracy and no one is accountable...is this right?

[Cole]

jim, what people want most is accountability, take Tony Blair, Gordon Brown GWB and **Filtered** Cheney as an example, right before the war in iraq there was a massive demonstration in london, a MASSIVE amount of people demonstrated that they didn't want england to go into this war and yet the government ignored the people and supported GWB in the illegal war...that means there is no accountability to the people and that the peoples opinion doesn't matter.

to date no evidence has been supplied to validate this illegal and internationally unlawful war, and a HUGE amount of people on both sides have been killed as a result...

who is going to answer for this?

at the moment we have a democracy and no one is accountable...is this right?

It's all a matter of who are the voters. And how do they choose who they vote for. And finally, what happens, if who they voted for, don't do as the voters expected them to do.

[[KMA]Avenger]

so what are we sposed to do when our governments are illegal (there has been no election in england that elected gordon brown, he was given the office of prime minister when tony blair resigned) and are involved in illegal activities?

[S0lid Snake]

so what are we sposed to do when our governments are illegal (there has been no election in england that elected gordon brown, he was given the office of prime minister when tony blair resigned) and are involved in illegal activities?

Yes, they switch places mid race and no one even blinked, something is very wrong here.

Labor wouldn't have gained power if Gordon Brown was the original candidate, and now we face the prospect of another switch, this has to end.

[papa~smurf]

czechoslovakia just so u know, both my grand mother and grand father on my mothers side imagrated from czechoslovakia. It was a focual point in many a dinner convo around our home. Through out the 1960(1968 being the best year for it) the sovits kept disandent voice down. So i do have some idea about the social and enomic effects on that nation when it was not a "demoracy", if only from relitives.

mexico and the USa, Right now, in usa, there are large amounts of mexicans and central americans risking there life to get to USA(that failed demoracy). No i don't believe we would roll to mexico city if they attack us. The ethic tensions that surround eastern europe are far removed from my hemphisher. The democaric experment in the america trys at it's best to remove those barries to peace amoung it's people. Dose fear and bais exist, yes of course. But do americans like a well thought out point of view, even it not our own, for sure.
That is where the democaric experment in eastern europe is so different from our own, through no fault of your own. It is hard to cast off decades of oppersion in a single generation. And in the end, that what upsetting to me, as an american, about the russia's actions. While preaching they wish to join with the demoracic socityies of the world, they play out cold war empire protecting tacts. At the cost of demoricas that have yet to find there full footing in the world.

[[KMA]Avenger]

i dont know if anyone has seen this but it has class all over it. Bill O'Reilly gets his backside handed to him on a silver plater.

god bless phill donahue for not taking billy boys crap and shouting down tactics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctlmholr ... re=related

[Kieltyka]

Well this topic has gone to hell.

[urogard]

i dont know if anyone has seen this but it has class all over it. Bill O'Reilly gets his backside handed to him on a silver plater.

god bless phill donahue for not taking billy boys crap and shouting down tactics:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctlmholr ... re=related

saw it before, saw it again and all i can say is

PWNED!

btw papa smurf i'm suprised you have such close info, however even in my family i often hear conflicting sides of the story so again, it's subjective.
Some people will complain and say dissidents during socialism were persecuted. Others will praise how education and medicine were for free and you never were denied surgery because you couldn't afford it or how newlyweds were given brand new built appartments if they had one or two children. Crime, drug abuse, mafia influence, illiteracy. Those were the kinds of things that were virtually non-existant in this "police state" as some western historians call it. And these are the things every western country is jealous of (Fyi, USA has %wise more illiterate people than cuba)
For me it's the funniest in the argument west vs. east is that people in the east that ran away often complained about what the west had what the east didn't. But they never saw the things that the east provided and the west didnt'.
PS: if it was your grandparents that emmigrated from czechoslovakia then it means they didn't live through its last few decades and see how it was truly like.

and kieltyka, i agree with you.
but again this war does really ignite many other issues not just here on the forum but also on the political scene in RL

[papa~smurf]

we still have relitives that live in bratisava (spell) my sister has vist them. At the time of my sister visit, our relitives questioned her nonstop on how captisism work, and such( this was fallowing the wall of the wall) so info was coming and going. my grandmother and her sister last visted home in the 1970's, before they died in the mid to late 1980's. To wit, i am 50 years old, my view of histrory, world wise and american is subjuctive.

my ex brother in law, from amsterdam, was visiting one year, and came down with a tribble cold. So off to the drug store we when, and to themedican shefs. He stood there along time, looking at all the varties of drug medications, finnily i asked him if there was a problem. He said yes, there was to many to chose from...

it was reported by PBS(public broadcast staion non commerical new orantied tv) in the late 1970, in a special on immmargation from communise countries, the people all most all suffered from one thing. The fact that when they got up in the morning, they had to find there own way. The state was not there to tell them where to live, where to work, what to buy. They, for the first time, had free will.......

yes, state control and central power may have brought those things urorard. And there is no question that form of goverment keeps the trouble down both in crime and over all social ills. But it is as it portant to rember the over 1,000,000 killed by the gang of 4 in china, to suppress freedom of though, the 100,000's of thosands of eastern europens imprison and killed to stop disent , be it through vocal protest or written work (solsantizen any one) I will take the ills of a free socity, one where men and woman must finds the best parts of them selfs, verse a goverment that tells me who to be, what to believe, where to live. And will kill me if i disagree. Yes we have no free health care, but we are working tordes it, yes we have programs to help the poor, provided they show they are helping them selfs. I would never trade freedom for pampering , for this is kind of sheep in wolfs covering.

[Phoenix of Terra]

demoocracy.....a failed experment ? How so ? U are a first generation in your country to experence it i believe. U have along way to go. Faulted yes, no question in the minds of any American that demoracy has it draw backs, but given the choose between that any the other lteratives, i stick with it.

thanks for answering my questions, there was no wrong answer. It oly shows that as much as "brain washed" americans are, there are others who also have bais, and a willness to listen to "one side"

Since you haven't commented on my example of mexico hitting the USA which would result in an invasion of mexico i'll suspect you fully agree and therefore changed your opinion of russian military presence on georgian soil.

Look up the Pershing Expedition, among other things. The US has been in Mexico more times than even China, and Mexico is still it's own country.

[papa~smurf]

also urogard, has it crossed your mind, that if there is a return to this workers utopia u have mention, that your ablity to even post amoung us could be block, because those regiems where in famous for the blocking of views not there own ? some thing to think about ?

[urogard]

the 100,000's of thosands of eastern europens imprison and killed to stop disent , be it through vocal protest or written work (solsantizen any one)

Compare it to the % of all people that have lived in above named areas. It will be marginal.
Compare that to the amount of crimes commited and people killed in the USA alone which is significantly smaller than the area you named. Only taking gun crimes, ~30k dead every year and ~65k injured (give or take but numbers remain pretty much constant, i checked deaths for the years 2001,2002 and 2004). Add to that all the crimes that were virtually nonexistant in the eastern bloc for the same time period you just stated. Both of the groups you and me stated contained mostly "good" people. But if you compare either relative or % numbers of both groups then you'll see that the one you noted is the unchallenged "lesser of two evils". (don't get me wrong, from a rational point of view i'll pick the first option cos that gets much less people killed and hurt, but that doesn't mean i agree with people getting arrested for saying whatever)

I will take the ills of a free socity, one where men and woman must finds the best parts of them selfs, verse a goverment that tells me who to be, what to believe, where to live. And will kill me if i disagree. Yes we have no free health care, but we are working tordes it, yes we have programs to help the poor, provided they show they are helping them selfs. I would never trade freedom for pampering , for this is kind of sheep in wolfs covering.

A government's job is not to tell all people what to do, I agree, that is my fundamental belief too and will never accept anything else.

However it should help those who do not wish to think for themselves and tell them what to do (yes trust me there are such people who really just want to be told what to do, i've seen them and i've met them)

To be more precice, i.e. if someone doesn't want to work at all in any way or form (some homeless for example say they enjoy their lives as they have in many respects much more freedom than the common white-collar worker), I have no problem with it but then you do not give him any money as social support either. If someone wants to work but cannot find one, then it's the governments DUTY to give him one, even if that would mean giving the person a shovel telling him to dig a hole, then cover it up and then repeat all again.

also urogard, has it crossed your mind, that if there is a return to this workers utopia u have mention, that your ablity to even post amoung us could be block, because those regiems where in famous for the blocking of views not there own ? some thing to think about ?

1) never mentioned it as utopia
2) Where there's a will there's a way
3) you have no way of certainly knowing, the simple fact that spring 1968 happened shows that things were constantly changing.
4) and seeing that people in czechoslovakia could pretty much freely go and visit austria and other countries I strongly doubt there would be such hard block on the internet. SU maybe, czechoslovakia doubt it.
5) and not really anything to think about, again i know many people who'd pick the continuation of what was instead of having the current situtaion.

[S0lid Snake]

Just heard Bush is sending US troops to Georgian on a humanitarian mission.

This will put US & Russian troops in close proximity.

One slip of a finger here could be catastrophic.

This was sighted in the Bangkok news & other media outlets.

[urogard]

well it was kinda expected.

their neo-colonialist doctrine cannot allow russian presence near the sole to be oil pipeline not passing through russian soil.

[S0lid Snake]

well it was kinda expected.

their neo-colonialist doctrine cannot allow russian presence near the sole to be oil pipeline not passing through russian soil.

Indeed. Bush is truly mad.

Russian has apparently issued a threat to nuke Poland should they go ahead with the missile defence shield???