UK & Europe vs USA

[Tek]

Talking military wise how much do the USA utilise UK aircraft?

None. The AV-8B Harrier II was a co-oped project between the U.S. and the U.K. Hell, the U.K. even backed out of the project, causing McDonnell Douglas to go back to the drawing board and redesign the Harrier to what is now the Harrier II. Not to mention that it has been made obsolete now, thanks to the F-35B. Which every other country is still waiting on their own allotment.

I know weve provided a couple of carriers aswell as the production of harrier jumpjets for you guys. Are they seen as tactically important?

That's not true, we build our own carriers, same with the AV-8B Harrier II. America's Harrier IIs are built by McDonnell Douglas.


lol @

If all of Europe banded together & I really do mean all of Europe (which includes russia) could get together under one banner then yes they could go toe-to-toe with the US.

Kinda pathetic, really.

Ah okay, i was more curious then anything.

[Demeisen]

@ sandman:
dude if you destroy the US economy, you destroy the world economy.

russia's military is a joke. they have only one partially professional group (division, regiment or whatever) in their entire army. the rest are conscripts. their military spending is minor and their equipment is out dated and inferior before its even made.

for its size the aussies pack a punch. far from the best army in the world though captain delusion.

past wars tell you the usa is weak? lol how many days did iraq (twice) or the taleban last as an effective military eh? they got raped in the 1st few hours. the use of a nuke against japan saved allied lives. overall, less people died from the bomb than a drawn out invasion would have caused.

Taliban pfft, terrorism pfft, it is rather an illusion for America. Got to Israel then you will witness car bombings every day.

terrorism isnt an illusion. if you think it i suggest you visit afganistan and try to convert the taleban. then you will know terror . btw i live in london. i know terrorism is a fact.



jack if you research, you will learn that many parts of american used equipment are made by the UK. we also produce entire vehicles for the USA and others. also, notice how obama is asking nato for troops? an all powerful america wouldnt need them right. russia wouldnt fight the EU as we fund their country. dont bite the hand that feeds etc.
only thing i agree with you about is the french surrendering

if you look at the populations of the most (militarily) capaple europen countries you will see that the USA has more ppl. im talking about the main, rich, developed nations of europe btw.


Kit-Fox is right about the nukes. in nuclear war the uk/france could easily break the USA forever, as the US could do to them.


yo Apadamek how could the US take out 90% of europes nukes eh? and how could they find the uk subs? magic perhaps? bring the KFC colonel out of retirement to find them? its very impressive if the US could destroy the nukes inside silos the uk doesnt have even if we did have silos, we would detect incoming nukes and retaliate before they hit. USA does not = all powerful.

Actually, man for man the UK army is the best in the world, SAS anyone? Alas it is very small though. Australia, Mr Sandman? pleeeeeeeeasssseeeee.. lol

aye

[Jack]

notice how obama is asking nato for troops? an all powerful america wouldnt need them right.

The same reason that the F-35 was developed cooperatively, to share the burden. It's not necessary, but why should we carry the world on our shoulders any more then we already are?

russia wouldnt fight the EU as we fund their country. dont bite the hand that feeds etc.
only thing i agree with you about is the french surrendering

Russia wouldn't need the EU to fund them if they were going to invade you, they could just take what they need from your corpses. But on that same line of logic, the UK would side with the US. In fact, that'd probably happen anyways, since the UK is practically the 51st state as it is.

if you look at the populations of the most (militarily) capaple europen countries you will see that the USA has more ppl. im talking about the main, rich, developed nations of europe btw.

Not sure why I would argue against this, you just basically said that you guys are weaker than you appear.

Kit-Fox is right about the nukes. in nuclear war the uk/france could easily break the USA forever, as the US could do to them.

The UK relies on four SSBNs and 58 SLBMs equipped with nuclear warheads for it's nuclear strategy. Guess who built those Trident II MIRVs? That's right, we did, Americans. Anyway, of your four SSBNs, only one is kept out at sea, the other 3 are docked. So there, we take out those three subs and bam, three quarters of your nuclear arsenal is gone, just like that. Leaving only 16 missiles and one sub. Shouldn't be too terrible difficult to locate and destroy that sub, considering how basically own you guys.

yo Apadamek how could the US take out 90% of europes nukes eh? and how could they find the uk subs? magic perhaps? bring the KFC colonel out of retirement to find them? its very impressive if the US could destroy the nukes inside silos the uk doesnt have even if we did have silos, we would detect incoming nukes and retaliate before they hit. USA does not = all powerful.

lol You would only be able to detect a nuclear attack after it was too late. We, the US, owns and operates your ballistic missile early warning systems. Do you honestly think that we would let you know we were attacking you? Hell, we could make it appear as though the French attacked you!

[Demeisen]

notice how obama is asking nato for troops? an all powerful america wouldnt need them right.

The same reason that the F-35 was developed cooperatively, to share the burden. It's not necessary, but why should we carry the world on our shoulders any more then we already are?

surely the invincible US of A wouldnt be burdened by mere terrorists? world on your shoulders lol how will it fit with the big head already there? btw its called doing your part. the uk does its part when able like when we faced the nazis. . . alone. . . while america was inventing obesity and waiting to enter WWII

russia wouldnt fight the EU as we fund their country. dont bite the hand that feeds etc.
only thing i agree with you about is the french surrendering

Russia wouldn't need the EU to fund them if they were going to invade you, they could just take what they need from your corpses. But on that same line of logic, the UK would side with the US. In fact, that'd probably happen anyways, since the UK is practically the 51st state as it is.

russia on its own couldnt beat europe. tis simple fact. and a nuclear war would have no winners, except that company in bulgaria that makes the worlds radioactive symbol signs.
i would expect the UK and US to fight on the same side. maybe do some reading on the shared values, culture, language, wars etc. . .
no, the UK isnt the 51st state. i was thinking the UK is more like the farmer who steers the big clumsy ox in the direction he wants

if you look at the populations of the most (militarily) capaple europen countries you will see that the USA has more ppl. im talking about the main, rich, developed nations of europe btw.

Not sure why I would argue against this, you just basically said that you guys are weaker than you appear.

ok maybe read more carefully. i was stating that the combined population of the main powers of europe (with strong military, economy and diplomatic influence) is smaller than that of the USA. im glad you didnt argue against it, as you would have been wrong if ya did.

Kit-Fox is right about the nukes. in nuclear war the uk/france could easily break the USA forever, as the US could do to them.

The UK relies on four SSBNs and 58 SLBMs equipped with nuclear warheads for it's nuclear strategy. Guess who built those elrond of rivendell? Trident II MIRVs? That's right, we did, Americans. Anyway, of your four SSBNs, only one is kept out at sea, the other 3 are docked. So there, we take out those three subs and bam, three quarters of your nuclear arsenal is gone, just like that. Leaving only 16 missiles and one sub. Shouldn't be too terrible difficult to locate and destroy that sub, considering how basically own you guys.


the US made the missiles, but they carry UK warheads. and it doesnt exactly matter who made them. their effect is the key issue. also, the fact that we have the same weapon system as you works against your own american superiority argument. note that we paid towards its development so we got what we paid for.

at least 1 sub is at sea at any given time, not only 1. even if only 1 sub was left, it could still waste the US. no way would you find the sub. you are one of the americans who is deluded about the capability of the US military. the UK can match US technology in areas and surpass it in others.

yo Apadamek how could the US take out 90% of europes nukes eh? and how could they find the uk subs? magic perhaps? bring the KFC colonel out of retirement to find them? its very impressive if the US could destroy the nukes inside silos the uk doesnt have even if we did have silos, we would detect incoming nukes and retaliate before they hit. USA does not = all powerful.

lol You would only be able to detect a nuclear attack after it was too late. We, the US, owns and operates your ballistic missile early warning systems. Do you honestly think that we would let you know we were attacking you? Hell, we could make it appear as though the French attacked you!

owns and operates? you mean you own and operate 'RAF Fylingdales [which] is a British Royal Air Force station on Snod Hill in the North York Moors, England' eh? 'the base [that] remains a British asset operated and commanded by the Royal Air Force' eh? with its 3,000 mile range, we would have warning.

america does not = all powerful

[Mister Sandman]

blah blah blah....

Im not going to bother with most of your attacks......


im just going to point one thing out to dear old liquid.


If you destroy the US economy, you do not destroy everyone else's.

Look at Cuba, look at china...

hmmm,,, everyone is royally stuff atm, except these guys.

EDIT: IF you destroy the US economy. You fix the worlds economy.

[CRASSUS]

america does not = all powerful

We never said that, we just said America=better then Europe and the UK.

As for WWII, yeah **Filtered** YOU POLAND AND FRANCE! WOO WOO WOO.

[Jack]

notice how obama is asking nato for troops? an all powerful america wouldnt need them right.

The same reason that the F-35 was developed cooperatively, to share the burden. It's not necessary, but why should we carry the world on our shoulders any more then we already are?

surely the invincible US of A wouldnt be burdened by mere terrorists? world on your shoulders lol how will it fit with the big head already there? btw its called doing your part. the uk does its part when able like when we faced the nazis. . . alone. . . while america was inventing obesity and waiting to enter WWII

What part of "it's not necessary" did you not understand? "Doing your part" and "sharing the burden" is basically the same damn thing. lol You mean when the British were getting their asses kicked by the Nazis and buying American made weapons dirt cheap? Or how the British waited until after Germany invaded Poland and became an actual threat to the UK to declare war? Or how about how Britain was unwilling to directly confront Germany even after they declared war? What about how the British used the Commonwealth countries as cannon fodder? So it's ok for the British to twiddle their thumbs while the Germans were stomping around in their backyard, but not ok for the US to wait until provoked to declare war? Which BTW, was suffering an economic recession, was not threatened by the European war, did not have much in the way of a military and had grown a distaste for war after having bailed Europe's ass out of the last world war. Awesome double standard there.

russia on its own couldnt beat europe. tis simple fact.

Europe without the help of the UK and the US, would quickly fall to Russia, just like it fell to the Nazis.

i would expect the UK and US to fight on the same side. maybe do some reading on the shared values, culture, language, wars etc.

I'm not the one that suggested that the UK would join sides with the EU. I was, however, the one that suggested they would side with the US.

no, the UK isnt the 51st state. i was thinking the UK is more like the farmer who steers the big clumsy ox in the direction he wants

Oh sure and the Queen of England is my mother.

ok maybe read more carefully. i was stating that the combined population of the main powers of europe (with strong military, economy and diplomatic influence) is smaller than that of the USA. im glad you didnt argue against it, as you would have been wrong if ya did.

Again, not sure how you're refuting the point that America would crush the EU.

the US made the missiles, but they carry UK warheads. and it doesnt exactly matter who made them.

But it mattered before!

jack if you research, you will learn that many parts of american used equipment are made by the UK. we also produce entire vehicles for the USA and others.

also, the fact that we have the same weapon system as you works against your own american superiority argument.

No, not at all. My superiority argument here is not that the UK has inferior weapons, but that they have too few, and have placed all their eggs in one basket. The US, on the other hand, has it's eggs spread out.

at least 1 sub is at sea at any given time, not only 1. even if only 1 sub was left, it could still waste the US.

The US would know the general area where that sub is, if not where it is exactly, and would dispatch a fleet to that area. If the sub engaged the American fleet, it's position would be compromised and it would be destroyed. If the sub attempted to launch it's missiles, it's position would be compromised, the missiles shot down and the sub destroyed. If somehow the sub managed to escape the area and launch it's missiles, the launch would be detected immediately by our early warning system, the missiles shot down and sub's position compromised.

owns and operates? you mean you own and operate 'RAF Fylingdales [which] is a British Royal Air Force station on Snod Hill in the North York Moors, England' eh? 'the base [that] remains a British asset operated and commanded by the Royal Air Force' eh? with its 3,000 mile range, we would have warning.

I never said they didn't have warning, I said they don't have early warning. That 3,000 mile range is only 1500 miles in any given direction. Yes, it's owned by the US military, sure it's operated by the RAF, but it still reports to Cheyenne for coordination. Without Cheyenne, all they have is that one RADAR station, so sure the UK will see it coming. That is, the UK will see it coming once it is on top of them. Thus it'll be too late, as I said.

america does not = all powerful

We never said that, we just said America=better then Europe and the UK.

What Appy said.

[Angnoch]

If you destroy the US economy, you do not destroy everyone else's.

Look at Cuba, look at china...

hmmm,,, everyone is royally stuff atm, except these guys.

EDIT: IF you destroy the US economy. You fix the worlds economy.

oh really

[spoiler]EcoPartnerships are voluntary arrangements between like-minded organizations (e.g. cities, research universities, corporations, sea-ports, etc.) in the United States and China. Targeted at the sub-national level, EcoPartnerships aspire to advance the energy security, economic growth, and environmental sustainability of both partners.

Fostering Innovation
Recognizing that in both countries, local entities have often been a laboratory for new and innovative policy initiatives, EcoPartnerships are also intended to facilitate opportunities to test and demonstrate the policies, technologies, and new approaches at sub-national levels. EcoPartnerships are also to facilitate innovations that may include development, commercialization and deployment of energy and environmental technologies.

Encouraging Sustainable Economic Development
EcoPartnerships are also intended to encourage governments at various levels to assess and create favorable policy environments, which provide incentives for industry and individuals to engage in energy efficient behavior, develop new and renewable energy sources, develop clean transportation systems, protect forests and wetlands so that their functional and service value can be realized, and also to build capacity for the promotion of sustainable development.[/spoiler]

China and the US are extremely dependent on each other for economic standing in the world which is unfortunately the by product of a world economy so wrong again Mister Sandman

[Mister Sandman]

[spoiler]EcoPartnerships are voluntary arrangements between like-minded organizations (e.g. cities, research universities, corporations, sea-ports, etc.) in the United States and China. Targeted at the sub-national level, EcoPartnerships aspire to advance the energy security, economic growth, and environmental sustainability of both partners.

Fostering Innovation
Recognizing that in both countries, local entities have often been a laboratory for new and innovative policy initiatives, EcoPartnerships are also intended to facilitate opportunities to test and demonstrate the policies, technologies, and new approaches at sub-national levels. EcoPartnerships are also to facilitate innovations that may include development, commercialization and deployment of energy and environmental technologies.

Encouraging Sustainable Economic Development
EcoPartnerships are also intended to encourage governments at various levels to assess and create favorable policy environments, which provide incentives for industry and individuals to engage in energy efficient behavior, develop new and renewable energy sources, develop clean transportation systems, protect forests and wetlands so that their functional and service value can be realized, and also to build capacity for the promotion of sustainable development.[/spoiler]

China and the US are extremely dependent on each other for economic standing in the world which is unfortunately the by product of a world economy so wrong again Mister Sandman

The world doesn't = China and the US

Surprise Surprise.

Added to this, China can survive more easily than the US can to economic warfare. NOted that USA is a fair way off to asia, and Europe.


Noted that Latin America has nothing to trade.

[Angnoch]

the world doesnt equal China and the US.......


the only two "superpowers" left in the entire world that completely control the world economy ie: the US suffers economically the world suffers and vice versa we prosper you prosper same goes for China.

So in the fact that China and US dont equal the entire landmass of the world yeah we arent the world but in terms of population economy and military we outstrip all other nations I will post facts later but it is almost 5am

[Mister Sandman]

the world doesnt equal China and the US.......


the only two "superpowers" left in the entire world that completely control the world economy ie: the US suffers economically the world suffers and vice versa we prosper you prosper same goes for China.

So in the fact that China and US dont equal the entire landmass of the world yeah we arent the world but in terms of population economy and military we outstrip all other nations I will post facts later but it is almost 5am

Lets note that China, Japan, Australia, Cuba, and other continues.... do not rely on trade to survive, all you need to survive, is shelter, water, and food.


The EU is an economic superpower, China is a superpower, Russia is a arising again superpower, Japan is an economic superpower, and US is a power.

[Jack]

Lets note that China, Japan, Australia, Cuba, and other continues.... do not rely on trade to survive, all you need to survive, is shelter, water, and food.


The EU is an economic superpower, China is a superpower, Russia is a arising again superpower, Japan is an economic superpower, and US is a power.

Let's note that China relies on imports for it's medical supplies, this means that if they were to go all isolationism, then it would mean they would quickly find themselves with a shortage of medical supplies. This would be terribly devastating especially because of their huge population. It would mean that disease would be able to spread like wildfire and unchecked.


Japan relies on food imports, so if they all of a sudden found themselves cut off from the rest of the world, they would quickly die of starvation.


LMAO @ Cuba, and that's all I have to say on that.


Both the EU and Japan rely largely on exports to America in order to maintain their economic superpower status. The United States is the largest importer in the world. Do you know what that means? It means the world's economy primarily relies on the American economy. Which makes America the leading economic superpower. Considering that the Indian military is the only one in the world that could go up against the American military and actually give it a tough fight(but currently would still lose), also means that America is the leading military superpower. America also has the most political influence in the world, thus making it the leading political superpower. America is also the leading cultural superpower. All this combines to make America the leading superpower overall. So to frank, your statement that America is only an average power is beyond naive, it's downright retarded with a bit of wishful thinking thrown in.

[Mister Sandman]

Let's note that China relies on imports for it's medical supplies, this means that if they were to go all isolationism, then it would mean they would quickly find themselves with a shortage of medical supplies. This would be terribly devastating especially because of their huge population. It would mean that disease would be able to spread like wildfire and unchecked.
Put the diseased ones on the front line, problem fixed.

Japan relies on food imports, so if they all of a sudden found themselves cut off from the rest of the world, they would quickly die of starvation.
Japan doesnt fully rely. Japan, thanks to their paranoia, has production in the staple diet to satisfy all needs of all people in the country.

LMAO @ Cuba, and that's all I have to say on that.
Cuba is a nice country. Been there? You should visit it.

Both the EU and Japan rely largely on exports to America in order to maintain their economic superpower status.However, they still remain to keep their independent economic status. Meaning, the true value, not just paper.

The United States is the largest importer in the world. Do you know what that means? It means the world's economy primarily relies on the American economy. Which makes America the leading economic superpower.


Considering America is the largest importer, they would be screwed if they weren't able to import anything. Think of this, other countries could trade with others not just America. Ironically, America is only just a middle man cut him out of the picture then you have wholesale.

Consider this fact, all a country that needs to survive is food, shelter for its citizens,health, and order added to this maybe is power. Everything the country itself can provide. For example, Cuba, you may not know, but the US and Cuba have been and still are at war for a long time. Economic warfare. However, the Cuban government still remains victorious over capitalist oppression.

For many reasons,
1. Cuba can feed its people.
2. Cuba has the one of the best health care systems, better than the US, which is shameful to the US for the US has far more opportunities with capital injections and such to improve the health care system.
3. Cuba uses alternative power sources.
4. Cuban people have shelter.

All in all, trade is not necessary, it is just an added bonus.
As it should be.

You seem to forget that the value of the US dollar is imaginary. And is falling. The only things with real value are minerals, metals, and overall needs and assets.


Considering that the Indian military is the only one in the world that could go up against the American military and actually give it a tough fight(but currently would still lose), also means that America is the leading military superpower. America also has the most political influence in the world, thus making it the leading political superpower.

You forget China and all its greatness. Chinese military are to be feared more than the US military. And reference the discussion at had, US is no match for EU and affiliates.

America is also the leading cultural superpower. All this combines to make America the leading superpower overall.

Cultural superpower, by that you mean that half the population kill each other over gang turf and everyone inside the country is racist and hate each other.

So to frank, your statement that America is only an average power is beyond naive, it's downright retarded with a bit of wishful thinking thrown in.

Im not saying America is an average power, it is an unnecessary power. A power, which will one day be void.

[semper]

*sharp whistle*

Let's try and watch the language and keep our cool's shall we?

*points to Apadamek's post*

par example..

at the same time, let's try and continually read each others post's. I know in the heat of a debate it can be easy to insinuate someone has posted something averse to what they have actually written. As a rule of thumb, do what I did when I first started debating in text forums - read your opponents post TWICE, and read them carefully.

~Semper

[semper]

At the same time I might contribute something to this discussion...

Though I am not going to massively address the topic of war, as that is rather just a thing for the US to currently cling to as its only arena of competition with Europe and is, ultimately, highly unlikely and not justified enough to discuss at length...I have two points for when I touch upon it..

I am removing the use of nuclear weapons. As barbaric and mindless as I do view most americans, and even some Europeans, they do have this abysmal desire to emphasise with other forms of life, and ergo only resort to harming things, not trying to harm them.. as an ultimate last resort. I don't for one moment believe any 'civilised' country would willing use nuclear weapons, even if they were losing a war (occupation is a better option than certain death, everyone knows that..)

On top of that. Using the general characteristics of the American's, I am taking it as they being likely, to a 95-5% (5% Europe attacking first..) chance of striking first in a war.

Let's look at a few sides of this shall we?

Culture - There is no competition. The USA has so many fractured media born cultures and crime ridden streets that any form of independence is an abstract ideal constantly imagined, but rarely found in existence, and most of their current efforts (rap for example) is shunned by the greater, cultured, areas of the 'old world'. The USA have made notable contributions (Hollywood, Star Wars, the moon landing, Roswell), but nothing to match the home of modern culture - Europe.

On average European and Asian children are smarter than those of the US, in certain fields (Science, Maths, English).. (anon, 2008). Which reflects on our education systems.

Furthermore, two of the most widely spoken languages in the world (English and Spanish) originate in europe.

Economy - the world relies on the US as much as it relies upon europe and the east. As it stands there are about 8 countries in the world with all the major power, most of them European, after that it drastically plummets. If the US lost Europe it would be up crap creek without a paddle, but this is a two way thing and without the US Europe would be in the crap too, though as stated earlier for the most part Europe would make a speedier recovery, however the UK itself would be severely, if not mortally, damaged.

The USA have the largest debt, nearly twice that of the UK. They also have the largest income, but currently even the UK's standard of living is higher than that of the USA (alas, first time in a very long time, but then we were never far behind , and you are not far behind now). The benefit system may be somewhat of a weight for our economy, but it is a loved factor by many of our citizens.

Military - The USA has the second largest standing army in the world, second only to china, it's combined military forces outnumber the standing armies of all europe combined.

HOWEVER. Combined, the European countries have a larger population (ergo logical to presume there would be more call up's and volunteer's/drafts), and on average are healthier (L Girion, 2007), so again, logically the average soldier would be better (aside from the fact the UK does boast the best soldiers in the world, Switzerland and german also have very top end soldiers).

The USA has more submarines and more ships, on the other hand though, the oceans around Europe are a lot denser than the atlantic itself, the European admirals would be fighting on home turf. On top of that with most technologies at Europe disposal as good, if not only a small amount less advanced as that of the US, and our impeccable 1000 years of war under our belts, it would be safe to say that the US numbers advantage would be significantly reduced, after all, war is what Europe does, though this would by no means indicate the USA down and out... it would just increase the chance of European victory, or should I say.. defence.

All in all though, Europe does need to sort itself out. Our own unification is incomplete, our defence to outside threats, such as to the two super powers is not enough, but given enough time, it certainly will be.

To be quite frank though, considering Europe are the USA's closest allies, and visa-versa, I think the entire prospect of them going to war is utterly redundant and neither here nor there. The US is like the Black Sheep of the Europe, and ultimately, you guys are just the jock of the family..but Europe at heart, with an injection of mexican (well, a lot more than an injection..), confused by the multitude of origins comprising your existence.

History - Europe has a disgustingly rich history. It can be seen in every city, every town. The desolate barren husk's of military war shells and bunkers litter the countrysides of france, the death camps stand like haunted graveyards across Europe. Dhali, Caesar, Van Gough, Hitler, Freude, J R R Tolkien, Flemming, Einstein, Nobel, Archimedes, Elizabeth, Henry VIII, The Titanic, most popes that have existed, roads most modern technology (the jet engine)...are all European. American itself IS a European creation.

Briton can boast the largest empire too have ever existed, controlling a quarter of the entire world and it population, it can be said that for better or worse, Briton made the world, and America what it is today. The most common Christian religion originated from england, and our judicial and law systems AND our parliamentary systems are still the inspiration and basis for most systems in the world.

The UK surrendered her power for the 'greater good', an impeccable sign of nobility and a effort to right previous wrongs of slavery and oppression.

The internet and others - The internet originates from computers. Alan Turning, English, invented and developed computers. The Internet was started by the US and the UK DID pitch into it, meaning Europe are actually responsible for more of the internet than the US are...

The Wright brothers only dotted the I's and crossed the T's for the aeroplane, which had been developed, experimented with and basically created by Europeans at that point.

WW's - The first world war, the americans can claim little credit for being instrumental in defeating the germans, that show was that of the english and the french. The second world war, I put my hands up and say that the americans gave the english a great deal of help, and were, like the UK, and Russia pivotal in ultimate victory for the allied forces. Ultimately though it was Europe fighting europe as the main stage for WWII, Germany were the primary aggressors with Italy - you being able to barely handle Japan for many years it was the UK, using your help that held the Germans and the Italians. It took the combined forces of America, France, what was left of the British Empire and Russia to stop Germany and Italy, two EUROPEAN countries. The Nuclear bombs were developed primarily by Europeans. You guys just nabbed the tech when it was prime for the final touch, much to echo the scenario with the areoplane.

Russia - As for the position of Russia. I think they would do one of two things.
1. Side with Europe
2. Stay out of it, watch both sides damage each other, ally with China and murder the winner.

----~----

In conclusion, to be quite frank.. I certainly will give America, that they are possibly the best chance for the future at the moment, a long side China.. but they would be nothing without Europe, and are no where near standing on the same, or any level above their parents yet.

With the rich history, the amazing range of culture, the difference in general attitude, the current economy, the increased safety and better health, I don't think there is any competition to which is a greater territory and a better place to live.

You keep clinging to your military prowess. It may be dam good, but it would never provide the decisive victory you hint at, and it's all pretty much worthless in this discussion. The USA is the brain child of Europe. We are your creators, your mentors, your origins....the US is nothing but a failed experiment of Europe's greed.

----~----

A few sources for interest.

L Girion, 2007 - http://www.bcbs.com/news/national/europ ... n-u-s.html

Anon, 2008 - http://www.medindia.net/news/Asian-Euro ... 5053-1.htm

Anon, 2008 - http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 137506.ece

----~----

I think, that's my contribution settled. I won't reply to any comebacks, and I wont take any further part save that or modding things.